The New Christian Thread 2

[ElderJefferson]

No, Jesus' sacrifice is not enough, I am sorry, I am not convinced.

Therein lies the problem

[boseador]

Same thing that happens to wood when it burns



Correct

Go back up a few posts and reference the links I pasted. Will answer all your questions DIRECTLY from Scripture (rather than a bunch of bodybuilding Christians with different beliefs)

So you believe in annihilation...

It is clear now.

Thank a lot.

I was confused at first, I thought you all believe in the same concept if heaven/hell. But is is clear now.

[ElderJefferson]

I disagree that it isn't what the bible teaches

Well, either you're a speed reader, or your defense mechanisms have kicked in. Not sure how you can draw those conclusions when both the guides and the site do nothing but show Bible verses in their true context.

[lasher]

Please go reference my links, sister. They answer these questions.

And the devil doesn't deny that God is Lord. In the end, everyone will accept that He is God. That's not really the issue with the lost; it's their unwillingness to surrender their sins.



Not sure why you posted this

she posted it because it Philippians states that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, and then Romans states that every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses is saved.

[ElderJefferson]

So you believe in annihilation...

More importantly, it's what the Bible teaches. What I believe has no bearing on the discussion, but I get where you're going though.

[lasher]

Well, either you're a speed reader, or your defense mechanisms have kicked in. Not sure how you can draw those conclusions when both the guides and the site do nothing but show Bible verses in their true context.

Sorry, what? I disagree because I have read and studied the bible, as well as the issue of universalism extensively. Obviously I haven't read your links. Obviously you haven't read mine. There is no defense mechanism kicking in.

[ElderJefferson]

she posted it because it Philippians states that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, and then Romans states that every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses is saved.

Oh, I see. Well, that's some poor bible interpretation, unfortunately. I can rip a couple verses out of Bible and make it look like the devil is saved, too. That's not how we study the Bible in these parts...

[DizzySmalls]

My loathing of Christianity is significantly reduced when universal reconciliation is incorporated.

[ElderJefferson]

Sorry, what? I disagree because I have read and studied the bible, as well as the issue of universalism extensively. Obviously I haven't read your links. Obviously you haven't read mine. There is no defense mechanism kicking in.

You responding to my post containing the links and stated that the Bible doesn't teach that. I assumed it was in response to the verses contained in the links.

[boseador]

Nice try. It would say that He is selective, partial, and hypocritical.

Oh, hey - welcome to free will! (those that I create according to how they walk! Ha, ha, ha <- sinister laugh)

Also, not sure if you're a parent, but if so - do you love any ONE of your kids more than the other?

I am 25.

If I knew that my son would be a serial killer and a rapist, I would get an abortion.

If this was determined that he would be a criminal and there is nothing that I can do about it then I would abort.

What would you do?

[lasher]

You responding to my post containing the links and stated that the Bible doesn't teach that. I assumed it was in response to the verses contained in the links.

negative. It was my assertion that based on my own study of scripture and church history - I disagree.

That said, anihilationism is a hell of a lot more palatable than eternal conscious torment. So I don't have some big argument with you about this. Getting some eternal torture chamber of a sadistic God out of the picture is a great step imo.

[ElderJefferson]

My loathing of Christianity is significantly reduced when universal reconciliation is incorporated.

Well, that's a load off my shoulders. Your loathing was way up there on my list...


[/sarcasm]

Sorry if I am pushing too much Bible in here, but I hope there's still a bastion of believers who trumpet the truth (and those who cherish its teachings). I have no problem with disagreements (how could I not?), but at least we can do so in regards to what the Bible teaches rather than how some dude feels about it with deadlifts on his mind.

[DizzySmalls]

Well, that's a load off my shoulders. Your loathing was way up there on my list...


[/sarcasm]

Sorry if I am pushing too much Bible in here, but I hope there's still a bastion of believers who trumpet the truth (and those who cherish its teachings). I have no problem with disagreements (how could I not?), but at least we can do so in regards to what the Bible teaches rather than how some dude feels about it with deadlifts on his mind.

I interject here when I please. I don't even have to reference a book first to see if it's OK.

[ElderJefferson]

I am 25.

If I knew that my son would be a serial killer and a rapist, I would get an abortion.

Then you deny man his free will, and as such, your beliefs are subpar compared to my God.

We could play the hypothetical card on this as well: your son would have saved x number of peoples' lives; brought x amount of joy to others; would be a benefit to x amount of others; etc. But somehow you feel the need to snub him from existence. Do you not see the problem here? Partiality is no way to run a universe. Free will, expose the problems of sin, all inhabitants now worship and obey God out of pure love. End of story.

[ElderJefferson]

I interject here when I please. I don't even have to reference a book first to see if it's OK.

Ignorance is bliss, huh

[DizzySmalls]

Ignorance is bliss, huh

I think that would apply more to you and your lofty sense of human importance and personal redemption and world without death and so on and so forth.

The world I perceive is far more grim and without dignity than your little fantasy world. So I think your delusions sound more blissful on the face.

[ElderJefferson]

I think that would apply more to you and your lofty sense of importance and personal redemption and world without death and so on and so forth.

You can try to go there if you want, but you already stated you don't need to "reference a book". I've studied the Bible, you apparently haven't. Your happy with that.

Ignorance is bliss. Don't get mad at me for stating the obvious.

[boseador]

negative. It was my assertion that based on my own study of scripture and church history - I disagree.

That said, anihilationism is a hell of a lot more palatable than eternal conscious torment. So I don't have some big argument with you about this. Getting some eternal torture chamber of a sadistic God out of the picture is a great step imo.

I agree.

I am going to become a serial killer and rapist now. The worst that could happen is annihilation or correctional rehabilitation.

LOL.

It's like some people need to make hell really scary or else everyone will beocme a criminal.

[boseador]

Then you deny man his free will, and as such, your beliefs are subpar compared to my God.

We could play the hypothetical card on this as well: your son would have saved x number of peoples' lives; brought x amount of joy to others; would be a benefit to x amount of others; etc. But somehow you feel the need to snub him from existence. Do you not see the problem here? Partiality is no way to run a universe. Free will, expose the problems of sin, all inhabitants now worship and obey God out of pure love. End of story.

If my son would have saved x number of peoples' lives; brought x amount of joy to others; would be a benefit to x amount of others; etc, I would not snub him from existence.

But if he were to have kill and rape x number of peoples; bring x amount of pain and suffering to others; would be of no benefit to humanity; etc then I would never allow him to come to the world. If I did, since I have the choice, then I would be responsible for the consequences.

[ElderJefferson]

If my son would have saved x number of peoples' lives; brought x amount of joy to others; would be a benefit to x amount of others; etc, I would not snub him from existence.

But if he were to have kill and rape x number of peoples; bring x amount of pain and suffering to others; would be of no benefit to humanity; etc then I would never allow him to come to the world. If I did, since I have the choice, then I would be responsible for the consequences.

You do realize that Jesus was on the cross and not us, right?

And you still deny man his free will. I get the whole hypothetical argument that you are making (who wouldn't prevent a tragedy if it was in their power to prevent?), but it doesn't fully apply to God's situation. He has placed Himself on trial because He refuses to lower His standards or dissolve His Law.

[justme7]

Please go reference my links, sister. They answer these questions.

And the devil doesn't deny that God is Lord. In the end, everyone will accept that He is God. That's not really the issue with the lost; it's their unwillingness to surrender their sins.

Not sure why you posted this

see lasher's post quoted below for your convenience:

she posted it because it Philippians states that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, and then Romans states that every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses is saved.

this.

More importantly, it's what I BELIEVE the Bible teaches.

fify

Oh, I see. Well, that's some poor bible interpretation, unfortunately. I can rip a couple verses out of Bible and make it look like the devil is saved, too. That's not how we study the Bible in these parts...

not poor exegesis. pretty easy to wave your hand to dismiss away Scripture without engaging it.

as for this, so far, i've posted Scripture to study Scripture, and you've posted opinion (your own). so if that's how "you study the Bible around these parts," i'll gladly keep at it through Scripture first and foremost, and then look to commentary, scholarly resources, and church history as secondary but helpful material, as well as to prayer.

and if we come out at differing opinions at the end of the day, that's perfectly fine. we can BOTH still be Christians who love God with all our hearts, treasure the Word, trumpet the truth, etc. and differ in interpretation of some components of our faith.

Well, that's a load off my shoulders. Your loathing was way up there on my list...

[/sarcasm]

Sorry if I am pushing too much Bible in here, but I hope there's still a bastion of believers who trumpet the truth (and those who cherish its teachings). I have no problem with disagreements (how could I not?), but at least we can do so in regards to what the Bible teaches rather than how some dude feels about it with deadlifts on his mind.

ppself 2.0

[lasher]

see lasher's post quoted below for your convenience:



this.

To expand ...

A christian universalist easily sees these passages as pointing to a Pauline understanding of universalism. Paul is saying these things in a soteriological sense and anticipates universal reconciliation which is implied in his statement in Phil 2:10-11 that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

He anticipates this because he uses the word "confess", a verb in greek consistently translated in the septuigint as not only confession, but actual praise, worship, and thanksgiving.

brb giving thanksgiving and praise while I head towards an eternal lake of fire.

Thanksgiving and praise comes from the heart. There is no implication in this passage that this is a forced confession of praise.

either those who bow before Jesus Christ and declare openly that he is Lord do so sincerely and by their own choice or they do not. If they do this sincerely and by their own choice, then there can be but one reason: They too have been reconciled to God.

This doesn't even begin to touch the connection with Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:22, Colossians 1:20, Romans 11:32 and Romans 5:18 ... at a minimum.

My loathing of Christianity is significantly reduced when universal reconciliation is incorporated.

I think there is a clause somewhere in the bible that excludes Nietzscheans.

[Harbinger]

see lasher's post quoted below for your convenience:


this.


fify



not poor exegesis. pretty easy to wave your hand to dismiss away Scripture without engaging it.

as for this, so far, i've posted Scripture to study Scripture, and you've posted opinion (your own). so if that's how "you study the Bible around these parts," i'll gladly keep at it through Scripture first and foremost, and then look to commentary, scholarly resources, and church history as secondary but helpful material, as well as to prayer.

and if we come out at differing opinions at the end of the day, that's perfectly fine. we can BOTH still be Christians who love God with all our hearts, treasure the Word, trumpet the truth, etc. and differ in interpretation of some components of our faith.



ppself 2.0

You're going to end up on his ignore list.

[ElderJefferson]

justme7,

Did you even read the material in the links I posted?

And we all must decide what we believe as far as Bible teachings are concerned. How else can you explain the differences we see within Christianity? There are a lot of well-intentioned yet misinformed saints roaming the earth (who will enter the Kingdom of Heaven). There are also those who simply refuse the plain teachings of the Scriptures, thus setting ourselves up for undo misery, deception, and possibly damnation (for the unconverted).

[ElderJefferson]

You're going to end up on his ignore list.

Believe it or not, my elder, some of us know how to debate without resorting to insults and childish bickering

[ElderJefferson]

It's easy to play the Pick-A-Verse game with the Bible. Check this out:

“at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

"“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Matthew 7:21

Studying the Bible is not picking a verse you like and then forming a belief around it. It's taking the Bible in totality and contextually. We have been given the instruction of old:
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little...
But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.” Isaiah 28:10, 13

The text in Philippians that is being thrown around is not in relation to eternal salvation, but the ultimate reality that Jesus is truly God, and there is no other God like Him. In the end, all shall realize this truth, be it within the confines of New Jerusalem, or from outside her walls of safety

The teaching that "all shall be saved" is both contradictory to clear Bible truth, and very dangerous. We need to guard against anything that deviates from the clear word, regardless of what some psychologist or socialist deems as "the most logical conclusion". The devil is very slick-tongued and conniving, lest we soon forget.

[lasher]

“at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.”

"“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Matthew 7:21

Studying the Bible is not picking a verse you like and then forming a belief around it. It's taking the Bible in totality and contextually. We have been given the instruction of old:
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little...
But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught.” Isaiah 28:10, 13

The text in Philippians that is being thrown around is not in relation to eternal salvation, but the ultimate reality that Jesus is truly God, and there is no other God like Him. In the end, all shall realize this truth, be it within the confines of New Jerusalem, or from outside her walls of safety

The text in philippains is about Jesus being truly God, that doesn't mean it is the only thing it is about. I don't cherry pick things. There is an entire series of biblical pointers concerning reconciliation. I simply talked about that one because Justme7 brought it up. You simply need to be open to investigating them rather than just assuming your position is the only one possible.

And here is the problem with your example.

In the matthew passage the person saying "lord, lord" is obviously not making a confession of faith, worship, and praise.

As I pointed out in the Philippians passage, the greek word for confess there is used throughout the greek old testament to indicate true praise, true thanksgiving, and true worship.

[ElderJefferson]

You simply need to be open to investigating them rather than just assuming your position is the only one possible.

My brother, how on earth do you think I came to be an Adventist? I couldn't argue against the clear truths as taught in the Bible, and my preconceived stances disintegrated into nothing more than treasured biases (and the idiocy of wondering how millions of other Christians could be wrong in their beliefs).

There are very few theories within Christianity that I haven't heard or read, including this one (all will be saved). One has to do some serious mental contortions to fit the Bible into such a belief.

Some arguments are just outright ridiculous (such as God being evil). Those require the dusting of the feet approach, to be honest. And one thing we learn from Paul's ministry: debating with others is the least effective form of witnessing. I like to discuss bible truths, for sure, but I can confirm Paul's words. Those with whom I debate almost always resort to preconceived notions and treasured traditions. I don't think I've ever drawn anyone to Christ via debates. I have, however, seen the eyes of many opened when they ask for a sincere Bible study.

The Truth is clear and readily available. It's up to us to receive it when God brings it into our life. I had to abandon my erroneous beliefs in the past, and I don't regret it for one second.

[lasher]

My brother, how on earth do you think I came to be an Adventist? I couldn't argue against the clear truths as taught in the Bible, and my preconceived stances disintegrated into nothing more than treasured biases (and the idiocy of wondering how millions of other Christians could be wrong in their beliefs).

There are very few theories within Christianity that I haven't heard or read, including this one (all will be saved). One has to do some serious mental contortions to fit the Bible into such a belief.

Some arguments are just outright ridiculous (such as God being evil). Those require the dusting of the feet approach, to be honest. And one thing we learn from Paul's ministry: debating with others is the least effective form of witnessing. I like to discuss bible truths, for sure, but I can confirm Paul's words. Those with whom I debate almost always resort to preconceived notions and treasured traditions. I don't think I've ever drawn anyone to Christ via debates. I have, however, seen the eyes of many opened when they ask for a sincere Bible study.

The Truth is clear and readily available. It's up to us to receive it when God brings it into our life. I had to abandon my erroneous beliefs in the past, and I don't regret it for one second.

I appreciate the comments, however I see no argument to interact with. Just an assertion that you are right.

[ElderJefferson]

I appreciate the comments, however I see no argument to interact with. Just an assertion that you are right.

I would hope that we all believe we're "in the right", barring those who assume the defense of ignorance. Why on earth would I embrace a faith that I felt was erroneous?

I'm simply sharing my convictions of Bible truths, in the hopes that others will study out this matter for themselves and draw their conclusions per the Holy Spirit's guidance. And if you think for a moment that I believe I have an exhaustive knowledge of the teachings of Scripture - well, nothing could be further from the truth. Adventists do NOT have a monopoly on truth. It's just that we seem to be following closer to the teachings of the Bible than any other Christian denomination.