New Study- Molecule in meat may increase heart disease risk (L-carnitine)

[soccerdad5]

Don't agree with it just posting

Molecule in meat may increase heart disease risk (4-8-13)
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene..._disease_risk_

From the article:

Hazen’s group also found that blood levels of TMAO and L-carnitine could predict heart disease risk, which they learned by collecting blood samples from 2,595 patients and tracking their health for three years.

The findings are new and exciting but need to be confirmed, says cardiovascular researcher Ishwarlal Jialal of the University of California, Davis Medical Center. Molecules proposed as biomarkers for heart disease often look promising in initial studies but fizzle out clinically. “We’ve been down this road so many times before.”
But one message is clear, Jialel says: “L-carnitine is not good for you. It’s not good as a supplement and it’s not good in red meat. That’s one thing you can take to the bank.”

[cowboybiker]

My desire to eat red meat is greater than the fear of death

[ironwill2008]

Don't agree with it just posting

Molecule in meat may increase heart disease risk (4-8-13)
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene..._disease_risk_

From the article:

Hazen’s group also found that blood levels of TMAO and L-carnitine could predict heart disease risk, which they learned by collecting blood samples from 2,595 patients and tracking their health for three years.

The findings are new and exciting but need to be confirmed, says cardiovascular researcher Ishwarlal Jialal of the University of California, Davis Medical Center. Molecules proposed as biomarkers for heart disease often look promising in initial studies but fizzle out clinically. “We’ve been down this road so many times before.”
But one message is clear, Jialel says: “L-carnitine is not good for you. It’s not good as a supplement and it’s not good in red meat. That’s one thing you can take to the bank.”

No free-of-charge availability of the full study; abstracts don't often tell the whole story.

[soccerdad5]

No free-of-charge availability of the full study; abstracts don't often tell the whole story.

Agree

[michail71]

I really no nothing about these kinds of things but it seems a bit of a jump to link a marker to a cause.

[michail71]

Hit mainstream news, http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-...heart-disease/. This article has a bit more detail.

At least they are not blaming saturated fats anymore.

[HoustonTXMuscle]

When I'm in the Med Ctr tomorrow, I'll pull the full article. Saw an overview in this morning's paper. Article was rather funny. Described how he's bought a George Foreman grill for the occasion and how the nurse assisting grilled the steaks for the 6 men and women. Also described how they ate every last juicy bite of the 8 oz steaks.

Until then:



Just drank my daily dose of L-carnitine. At my age, could really care less. If the arsenic in my brown rice or the mecury in my salmon doesn't kill me, am sure that there's a yet, undiscovered reason (potential carcinogen) for why we shouldn't eat brocolli or blueberries.

[cowboybiker]

If we listened to everything that we heard we would never do anything.

Meats bad for you.
Bacons bad for you.
Eggs are bad for you.
Squats are bad for knees.
Deadlifts cause cancer.

Damn, where does it end?

[lolakitten]

But.... aren't there studies showing the benefits of L-carnitine on heart health? I know of cardiologists who prescribe it to their patients....
I know I'm not ready to give up my L-carnitine yet.... or my meat!!!

[soccerdad5]

But.... aren't there studies showing the benefits of L-carnitine on heart health? I know of cardiologists who prescribe it to their patients....
I know I'm not ready to give up my L-carnitine yet.... or my meat!!!

Benefits of Carnitine

http://health.howstuffworks.com/well.../carnitine.htm

Carnitine has earned its stripes as a helpful player in brain and heart health, with proven benefits for many of the symptoms tied to heart disease. So confident are nutritional experts, they are adding carnitine to the list of nutrients needed to keep the heart going strong.

It is also considered a potent addition to popular brain nutrients, such as CoQ10 and alpha-lipoic acid. Like its brethren, carnitine is involved with energy production in the cell. More specifically, it helps move fatty acids into the powerhouse of the cell, the mitochondria. From there, the fatty acids can be used in the energy production cycle.

Carnitine is made in the body from two amino acids, lysine and methionine, and is produced, in part, by vitamin C. Dietary sources include beef and pork, as well as small amounts found in chicken, fish and milk.

The major benefits of supplementation are those to the heart. Research has shown that carnitine benefits patients with heart failure and chest pain, and protects patients from further heart damage following a heart attack [Source: Iliceto, Singh, Iyer, Rizos]. In particular, data has pointed to benefits for patients with kidney failure and heart disease [Source: Pauly]. One small study has documented benefit to heart volumes by decreasing the rate of heart enlargement with a combination of CoQ10, carnitine, and a vitamin called taurine [Source: Jeejeebhoy]. Carnitine supplementation is becoming much more common for patients with heart disease as nutritional cardiologists such as Dr. Stephen Sinatra, author of the The Sinatra Solution: New Hope for Preventing and Treating Heart Disease and L- Carnitine and the Heart, include carnitine in the vitamin team approach for heart disease.

Acetyl-L-carnitine has shown some benefit for overall brain function [Source: Hudson]. Additionally, research has shown that acetyl-L-carnitine aided in recovery after stroke in animals [Source: Lolic]. Similar to heart treatment programs, acetyl-L-carnitine is typically used in combination with other nutrients that target the brain such as alpha-lipoic acid, CoQ10 and vitamins E, B-12 and folate.

Carnitine is typically available in L-carnitine form, or acetyl-L-carnitine. L-carnitine is typically recognized for its contributions to a healthy heart. For patients with heart disease, the typical recommendation is 1,500-2,000 mg daily. Acetyl-L-carnitine is used for brain health. The dosage for this form is also 1,500-2,000 mg daily. Both are typically well tolerated, though acetyl-L-carnitine can, rarely, cause an upset stomach.

Medications that might decrease carnitine effectiveness, include valproic acid, used to treat seizures [Source: Campistol, Komatsu]. Patients should discuss the interaction of these medications with their physician. Conversely, L-carnitine is thought to raise the risk for seizures in those with epilepsy, though this is rarely shown in clinical studies. Patients on dialysis, or others with specific genetics, can run the risk of carnitine deficiency. Signs include children with fatigue, heart problems or growth delay. Carnitine levels can be evaluated through blood work, and proper supplementation can be prescribed.

Research continues to look at carnitine’s potential benefits for the heart as well as the brain. Target groups for supplementation include those with heart disease, heart failure and angina (chest pain from heart disease). Vegetarians with a history of heart disease should strongly consider L-carnitine, as they may not have enough nutrients from their diet to maintain adequate levels. Those who want to improve brain function and health can consider acetyl-L-carnitine as part of their supplement regimen.

Sources

Iliceto, S., Scrutinio, D., Bruzzi, P., et al. (1995). Effects of L-carnitine administration on left ventricular remodeling after acute anterior myocardial infarction: The L-Carnitine Ecocardiografia Digitalizzata Infarto Miocardico (CEDIM) Trial. J Am Coll Cardiol, 26:380-387.
Singh, R.B., Niaz, M.A., Agarwal, P., Beegum, R., Rastogi, S.S., Sachan, D.S. (1996). A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of L-carnitine in suspected myocardial infarction. Postgrad Med J, 72:45-50.
Iyer, R.N., Khan, A.A., Gupta, A., Vajifdar, B.U., Lokhandwala, Y.Y. (2000). L-carnitine moderately improves the exercise tolerance in chronic stable angina. J Assoc Physicians India, 48:1050-1052.
Rizos, I. (2000). Three-year survival of patients with heart failure caused by dilated cardiomyopathy and L-carnitine administration. Am Heart J, 139:S120-S123.
Pauly, D.F. (2003). The role of carnitine in myocardial dysfunction. Am J Kidney Dis, 41(4 Suppl 4):S35-43.
Campistol, J., Chavez, B., Vilaseca, M.A., Artuch, R. (2000). Antiepileptic drugs and carnitine. Rev Neurol, (suppl 1):105-109.
Komatsu, M., Kodama, S. (1986). A study on valproate-induced hyperammonemia. Med J Kobe Univ, 47:235-242.
Jeejeebhoy, F., Keith, M., Freeman, M., et al. (2002). Nutritional supplementation with Myo Vive repletes essential cardiac myocyte nutrients and reduces left ventricular size in patients with left ventricular dysfunction. Am Heart J, 143:1092-100.
Hudson, S. (2003). Acetyl-L-carnitine for dementia. Cochrane Database Syst Rev, CD003158.
Lolic, M.M. (1997). Neuroprotective effects of acetyl-L-carnitine after stroke in rats. Ann Emerg Med, 29(6):758-65.

[lolakitten]

^^^ Right... so are they discounting all that now? Or do they just want a reaction from the masses to make news?

[Strong_1rd_Post]

which is why i only eat dairy, and lots of vegetables. i follow my own strict diet, with plenty of Tofu, and cabbage. meat has too many carcinogenic chemicals, and i don't drink diet anything. DIET drinks usually contain other carcinogens (that are unlisted). no beer either. strictly Dairy, Cabbages, and Tofu. That's my staple right there. Also, contrary to popular belief, Eggs ARE bad for you, and so is Rice and Potatoes. I prefer to get my Carbs source from whole wheat bagels (the cinamon raison one's are pretty good too, taste good with cream cheese and/or pickles).

[GKC45]

This is the ONLY meat you should eat-

[Amstat]

Haven't had red meat since I was around 10. I get my protein from chicken, fish, tofu, whey shakes etc. study doesn't mention fowl and fish. Do these protein sources not contain L carnitine?

[soccerdad5]

Haven't had red meat since I was around 10. I get my protein from chicken, fish, tofu, whey shakes etc. study doesn't mention fowl and fish. Do these protein sources not contain L carnitine?

Table 1: Selected food sources of carnitine

Food Milligrams (mg)
Beef steak, cooked, 4 ounces 56-162
Ground beef, cooked, 4 ounce 87-99
Milk, whole, 1 cup 8
Codfish, cooked, 4 ounces 4-7
Chicken breast, cooked, 4 ounces 3-5
Ice cream, ½ cup 3
Cheese, cheddar, 2 ounces 2
Whole-wheat bread, 2 slices 0.2
Asparagus, cooked, ½ cup 0.1

[cowboybiker]

[crupiea]

My desire to eat red meat is greater than the fear of death

this

[Electricheadd]

My desire to eat red meat is greater than the fear of death

strong this^

They can pry the steak from my hands after the cancer..... Till then good luck!

[EjnarKolinkar]

Eventually they will put on a scale the upside of L-carnatine for certain groups and on the other side the "Incerased risk of cardiovascular disease," of the TMAO produced in the gut by bacteria from the L-carnatine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3072740/

I found above and below a while back while looking into L-carnatine. Above is a general what they thing it might do positives.

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocente...uts/carnitine/

^This if you scroll 90% down has a content per oz of l-carnatine in various animal products.

I am not planning to decrease the variety of meats I enjoy at this time. Pork chops, Canadian bacon, and beef remain in the rotation (gasp).

[acrawlingchaos]

Absolute load of bull**** (was able to preview full article).

They drew from two sources.

Source #1

..... Epidemiological study. Those who were tested (subjects) were from the Genebank, were elderly and in poor health to begin with previous heart conditions. (LOL WAT?)

..... Many already had numerous risk factors (obesity, smoking etc.).

..... They examined those that passed away, excluding those that died of non heart related issues (dropping like flies).

Source #2

..... Lab rats (sigh). Normal sh*t applies. Unusually high doses ingested and injected.

..... LOL at this article they also published.

http://www.nature.com/nm/journal/v19...l/nm.3163.html

A recent study showing that mice do not reproduce the patterns of gene expression induced by human inflammatory disease has provoked renewed discussion of the validity of animal models in translational research.

Additionally, those in the study use subjective language when interviewed.

Scientists have long known that eating red meat jacks up a person’s chances of developing heart disease

But one message is clear, Jialal says: “L-carnitine is not good for you. It’s not good as a supplement and it’s not good in red meat. That’s one thing you can take to the bank.”

[beachguy498]

When I see a warning label branded into the sides of cattle, I may think about it. Then choose to ignore it.

Rob

[Flounderbout]

meat has too many carcinogenic chemicals.
no beer either.
Eggs ARE bad for you
so is Rice and Potatoes.

strictly Dairy, Cabbages, and Tofu. That's my staple right there.

brb off to drop toaster in bath before life becomes unbearably miserable.

[SleeperService]

I go on the principle that life is pretty bad for you in the long run what with the 100% fatality rate and all.

One wonders how many people pop their clogs due to anxiety over whether the next mouthful of beef or beans or whatever will kill them. Maybe they should just chill out and enjoy a burger now and then.

[ironwill2008]

Absolute load of bull**** (was able to preview full article).

They drew from two sources.

Source #1

..... Epidemiological study. Those who were tested (subjects) were from the Genebank, were elderly and in poor health to begin with previous heart conditions. (LOL WAT?)

..... Many already had numerous risk factors (obesity, smoking etc.).

..... They examined those that passed away, excluding those that died of non heart related issues (dropping like flies).

Source #2

..... Lab rats (sigh). Normal sh*t applies. Unusually high doses ingested and injected.

^^^^ This is pretty much what I was expecting.

I knew about the inclusion of rodents in the study, and that in itself is always cause for question.

[EjnarKolinkar]

..... ..... Epidemiological study. Those who were tested (subjects) were from the Genebank, were elderly and in poor health to begin with previous heart conditions. (LOL WAT?)

..... Lab rats (sigh).

Correlation and rats...SMH

Wonder what the funding source was of study? NVM, I don't want to know.

[ironwill2008]

Correlation and rats...SMH

Wonder what the funding source was of study? NVM, I don't want to know.

Not that it's true in this case (I don't know who funded this particular item), but in the past, certain vegan entities, as well as PETA, have funded and placed such articles in the lay media, under the guise of "research."

[Kodokan]

I will likely succumb to other vices before meat. So it's still on the menu for me...

[hammerfelt]

[michail71]

They made the jump to say L-carnatine is bad but it seems it may be TMAO produced by a specific form of bacteria. Perhaps there is some sort of other balance at play (be it other bacteria or dietary combinations that may keep things in check).

Perhaps we need multiple things going wrong before this compound becomes an issue?

[ironwill2008]

They made the jump to say L-carnatine is bad but it seems it may be TMAO produced by a specific form of bacteria. Perhaps there is some sort of other balance at play (be it other bacteria or dietary combinations that may keep things in check).

Perhaps we need multiple things going wrong before this compound becomes an issue?

More human studies will need to be done in order to get to the bottom of the issue.