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  1. #1
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    Chinese System to GET YOU STRONG!

    PART 1 of 5

    WARNING: This is a 5 part series. You might want to brew some coffee or tea. Or drink a cold one.

    First things first:

    a) I did not come up with this system. I’m not smart enough to do that.

    b) I’m NOT an expert at this system. I was merely a guinea pig. Well, one of many, many successful guinea pigs. I will share with you what I know with my little knowledge and limited experience, and I will be honest if there is something I don’t know - I won’t Google or rely on Wikipedia and come back pretending to be an expert. I have nothing to prove in the e-world.

    c) This system is not meant to be the ‘Silver Bullet’ of all systems. There are many time-proven systems in this world, and this is just another tool to add in your toolbox if you want to do something different, or of you have been stuck for a while (like me). This is not meant to bash other systems; it is meant to help you if you have a sticking point. And most importantly, it is to introduce a system that other countries use. The internet should be used to help each other out, and not to belittle one another just because we have differing beliefs.

    d) AND YES! THIS SYSTEM WILL and CAN HELP YOU regardless of your discipline. Powerlifters, Strongmen, Bodybuilders, CrossFitters, you can use this system.

    e) Remember this: FIND THE FEELING.

    Background:

    For the past month I had been following the Chinese Weightlifting System, under the guidance of an experienced coach (who is also an e-coach), who himself was mentored and trained by some of China’s elite coaches.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pennsylvania State Weightlifting Championships 2013
    1st Place - 94KG Master

    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
    2nd Place - 85KG Master
    Reply With Quote

  2. #2
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    PART 2 of 5

    WHAT IS THE CHINESE WEIGTHLIFTING SYSTEM?

    Before I attempt (keyword ATTEMPT, cuz remember: I’m NO expert) to explain, you , the reader, must have an open-mind and challenge current training dogmas and BELIEVE that:

    a) High reps up to 50 can help make you strong. (For example, I set PRs because I included 50 air leg curls in my routine towards the end of most sessions, which allowed me to ‘wake up’ my hammies, thereby making me faster under the bar on the snatch. There was another Olyer who set PRs by doing 50 adductor exercise using a bath towel. I know.. I know.. Read on..)

    b) Pauses will make you strong.

    c) Partials will make you strong. (Yes, it’s ok to do 1000-lb one-eighth squats BUT ONLY if you fully know and understand its purpose.)

    d) Isolation exercises, cables and machines can help make you strong. (This is hard to accept for strength athletes and coaches, including myself in the beginning. And if you’re a strength athlete, practice diplomacy now because you might have to share the rear delt machine and “work in” with bodybuilders at your gym. )

    e) Vary your grip and feet stances. On the squats, for example, don’t just stick to one stance. Vary your stances every once in a while – some days super wide, some days super narrow – to target and strengthen different leg muscles.

    f) MOST IMPORTANT THING: Everything really, really STARTS IN THE HEAD. (More on this in Part 4 of 4)

    And again: KEEP AN OPEN MIND, and FIND THE FEELING.

    System Explanation:

    The system is based on strengthening weak movements and / or muscles (whether muscle groups or individual muscles) on that particular day you train. You MUST LEARN TO TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS, and be honest with yourself. (Hey InducedDrag, remember that thread you made a month ago about “Instinctive Training” and I said I was gonna do a write up? Here it is, bro.)

    The program has 6 levels. We call them Movements A, B, C, D, E and F.

    Definitions.

    A: The main movement for that day
    B: The secondary strength movement to assist the main weakness in “A”
    C: The secondary power or technical movement, to assist weakness in “A”
    D: The main ISOLATION assistance to weakness in “A”
    E: The main isolation assistance muscular weakness
    F: A bodyweight, unilateral, band assisted movement to address any imbalance



    First, RPE – Rate of Perceived Exertion

    - Rate of perceived exertion is very important. The higher your RPE, the less your volume. The lower your RPE,
    the higher your volume.
    - It is actually far better if you can learn to tweak your RPE. In the sense, if I say, 88%, if you can think 8.8 RPE
    instead of actually using 88% 1RM, you can tweak your numbers far more effectively. Some sets, you’ll feel like
    it got lighter. Those sets are the sets where you increase the weight to ensure the RPE maintains at 8.8 not
    dropping down to 8.5 or 8.2RPE
    - RPE’s are calculated to 10.0 as max effort (EG: 1RM squat) and 0.0 as minimum effort (EG:lying down)
    - Every rep and set range that’s prescribed has a (+- 1) range. So if I say, 5 reps, it can be 4 or 6 too.

    More on the movements.

    A: This movement should usually be worked to a 1RM with good form (40-50 minutes) (RPE 8-10)
    - First work up to movement 1RM (RPE-10)
    - Strength day is usually squats. WL day, snatch, CNJ.

    Once 1RM for the day is achieved, back off the weight and

    - Squats - 82-88% 1RM, 4-6 sets @ 2-3 reps (RPE-7.5-8.5)
    - WL - 85-90% 1RM, 4-6 sets @ 2-3 (if strong) 75-85% 1RM, 5-7 sets @ 3 (If weak) – (RPE-8-9)
    - Usually, partial squats are used with full squats. Partial squats, could be, “A” or “B”

    B: Main strength assistance to suckiness in “A” (15 -20 minutes) (RPE-7-9)
    - If your first pull on that day sucked, you shall pull. If your jerk on that day sucked, you could partial front squat.
    If your back squat, you kept leaning over, do some extra range pulls.
    - For pulls, go to 1RM (Would probably be between 130-150% of snatch and CNJ max)
    - Then go down and do 4-6 sets @ 3-4 reps @ 85%-90% on a good day. 6-8 sets @ 3-4 @ 70-80% on a bad day.
    Always base upon your max of that day
    - If doing overhead work, again go to 1RM of that overhead work (snatch balance, push press, push jerk, etc) and
    follow above guideline.
    - If you choose to snatch and CNJ on this day, after the squats (actually a great idea), try to stick for triples.

    C: Main power or technical assistance (15 minutes tops) (RPE-5-8)
    - To address technical or power deficiency in that day’s technique.
    - 4-6 sets @ 2-3 reps for power
    - 8-10 sets @ 3-5 reps for technique
    - Percentages are difficult to explain on this day. Feeling, however should be comfortable and in control.
    - Example: Panda pulls, high hang snatch pulls, behind neck push press, rack jerk for reps,
    The reps tell a better story. Always remember that.

    D: Main Isolation (10 minutes) (RPE-3-6)
    - At this point, you want to begin thinking “muscular” and “biomechanics”. You want to go for 6-8 reps here
    onwards if the movement has an eccentric portion. 15< reps if no eccentric. If your hamstrings are weak, use
    things like Romanian deadlifts, good mornings, good mornings with bands hanging Kettlebell, extra range
    deadlifts, back extensions, glute ham raises, kettlebell swings (high reps, no eccentric), ball tossing
    - 4 sets should be sufficient

    E: Isolation Muscular Assistance (10 minutes) (RPE-1-5)
    - You’re attacking another muscle group that is weak. If on that day, you feel your hamstring truly is weakest,
    move to a 1-3 RPE movement. Attack it with 20-30 reps. Up to 50 reps. 3 sets should be enough.

    F: Final assistance (10 minutes) (RPE1-4)
    - About now, if you did it right, you should feel like a wet noodle. Some bodyweight, isometric, band work,
    bodybuilding; pre-hab work should be done at this point.
    - Sprints, box jumps, broad jumps, some wrestling,

    Extra Note
    - ABC are all interchangeable
    - DEF are also interchangeable
    - ABC can also be done in DEF
    - But DEF should not be done in ABC

    To many strength athletes and coaches, building strength, METAPHORICALLY speaking, is a one-sided wall. They do nothing but singles, doubles, and triples. If that hairy-ass, mean wolf comes and huffs and puffs at that SINGLE wall, it will collapse. The Chinese, on the other hand, believe in building four sided walls. And they worked on their system for so long that their walls are actually octagon. You must build strength, power, balance and skill. AND YOU MUST ALSO TRAIN ALL DIMENSIONS OF STRENGTH, AND NOT JUST ABSOLUTE STRENGTH.

    The Chinese believe that you should be good and strong at many, many various movements, and not just 3 or 4. For example, let’s say you are strong in back squats, deadlift and bench press. These three (3) are the foundation of your pyramid. When you get to the top, you will have built a pyramid that has a relatively weak and unstable base. Now, let’s say you have strong back squat, deadlift, bench press PLUS strong overhead press, weighted pullups, front squats, sumo deadlift, handstand pushups, and all kinds of unilateral DB moves, when you get to the top, your pyramid strength will have been built on strong foundation. This is the premise of the Chinese Weightlifting System.

    Exercise Selection to Build a Strong Foundation

    “Kung Fu” exercises are exercises that you have mastered and are comfortable doing. These have huge transfer to your movements and will be preferred. They have huge transfer to your lifting. You want the list to KEEP GROWING to establish a solid foundation at the bottom of your pyramid. How?

    “Kung Fool” exercises are the ones you suck at. Once you have mastered these movements and you no longer hate them, they become your KungFu exercises. As a split jerker, this is the reason why I had been doing squat jerks lately – to carry over to my competition lift as a split jerker.

    Intensity versus Volume

    If you look closely at the volume-intensity relationship and rep scheme, it will APPEAR as though their system was influenced by many other systems combined. For example,

    a) They max out every day to 1RM. Appears to be BULGARIAN.
    b) They train for doubles or triples at certain percentage (RPE). Appears to be RUSSIAN/SOVIET (Prilepin Table)and other EASTERN BLOC.
    c) They work on weak movements by isolating muscles and using high-rep isolation exercises, much like bodybuilders ’pump’ weak muscles. They use a strength-training version of the ‘instinctive principle’. They also do partials and pauses. Appears to be AMERICAN BODYBUILDING.

    The above is a pretty good summarized assumption, but borrowing from other systems was really NOT the intent. In reality, they train based on FEELINGS (read again: INSTINCTS). They do max out every training day until they achieve 1RM for that day. The 1RM may or may not be a PR. They do not care about PR’s during training, as much as they care about 1RM with perfection. A PR with lousy technique is never acceptable. Besides, PRs in training don’t mean jack to the Chinese. Competition is where it counts. Remember: THEY DOMINATE OLY LIFTING IN THE OLYMPICS EVERY 4 YEARS AND WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS EVERY YEAR IN THE 85-KG AND BELOW WEIGHTCLASSES. (And the only reason why they cannot compete at the higher weight class, 94-kg and above, is the fact that the Chinese are a genetically smaller race compared to the Soviets / Russians, Slavics and Persians.)

    Moving on. As a side note, strength coaches overseas, particularly China, actually learned a lot from pioneer American bodybuilders as far as USING COMMON SENSE. Guys like Vince Gironda, Bill Pearl, and of course Arnold No-Last-Name-Necessary, just to name a few great ones, were bodybuilding pioneers and geniuses. These bodybuilders used common sense to do what they had to do to achieve what they achieved. They used common sense first to produce results, then later on others researched the results of these gentlemen’s work. And this mode of thinking was adopted by the Chinese: More common sense, less science; let’s first produce results using common sense, and then research the results later. In contrast, way too much research, and analyses, and more research and internet bickering and trolling are wasted in North America. The Chinese are the 21st Century “Bro-Builders“ of Olympic Weightlifting.

    And, ironically, some strength coaches in North America like to poke at bodybuilders, but the truth is that many strength coaches and athletes in Asia use bodybuilding principles – hypertrophy, pauses, partials, etc. – to GET STRONG.

    If you look at Chinese weightlifters, they look like LIGHTWEIGHT bodybuilders because they do do bodybuilding training towards the end of their session not only to strengthen weak movements that day, but to also strengthen the supporting muscles of those weak movements. The only thing they don’t do is curl in the squat rack, or they will be sent to labor camps in North Korea.
    Last edited by NorwichGrad; 03-11-2013 at 06:19 AM.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pennsylvania State Weightlifting Championships 2013
    1st Place - 94KG Master

    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
    2nd Place - 85KG Master
    Reply With Quote

  3. #3
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    PART 3 of 5

    POWERLIFTERS & STRENGTH ATHLETES: THIS IS FOR YOU

    I know what you’re thinking. You’re all, “Yeah, but Joel, you talked about Olympic lifting. I’m a [pick one: powerlifter, strongman, bodybuilder, crossfitter, etc..] How will this system help me get strong, brah?”

    Patience, brahs. Good question. Here’s the solution:

    Replace snatch, clean & jerk with competitive powerlifting lifts like back squats, bench press, and deadlift, or whatever strongman lifts you want to improve. Follow the same rules and movement guidelines so that your template, as a powerlifter for instance, looks like this:

    A: Main movement. On heavy lower body, a pull or a squat variation to a 1RM.
    B: A supporting movement to address the main movement’s weakness
    C: A supporting movement, to address weaknesses in the hams, glutes, erectors
    D: Any other muscle that is significantly weak
    E: Any other muscle that is significantly weak
    F: Any other muscle that is significantly weak

    For example, let’s say you’re a powerlifter or a strength athlete and you are doing a lower heavy day. Using the above template, let’s say it’s squats day:

    A. MAIN MOVEMENT: Back Squats (go for RPE- 10)
    Singles
    225-lbs
    245
    265
    275
    285
    305
    315 [RPE-10]
    320 (PR attempt – failed)

    Felt weakness in movement at parallel, driving bar up.

    Dropped the weight.

    4 sets x 3 reps at 285-lbs [RPR -8]

    B. Strength assistance to Movement A. Pause Squats above parallel.
    1st Set – 325 lb x 5 reps [RPE – 9] Too high RPE, drop weight
    2nd Set – 305 lb x 5 reps [RPE – 7]
    3rd Set - 305 lb x 5 reps [RPE – 6] Too low, adjust next set
    4th Set - 315 lb x 5 reps [RPE – 8]

    C. DB Step ups on plyo, unilateral to independently train each leg. [RPE 1 – 5]
    4 sets x 8 with DB overhead.

    D. E.F. Running our of time. Combined the three movements and did 3 giant sets of:
    Lightweight RDL – x 20 reps [RPE 5]
    Hamstings – Ball Leg curls x 40 [RPE 3]
    Abs x 30 [RPE 1]

    Remember: FIND THE FEELING, and adjust the weights so that you are within the prescribed RPE.

    And most importantly, TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS, BUT HIT THE GYM WITH A DEFINED GOAL AND INTENT. If you are supposed to train legs, don’t go in the gym and test your benchpress to impress the hot blonde on the treadmill. If you are supposed to work on deadlift technique, do not attempt a squat PR.
    That’s the other thing. Using your feelings and instincts is NOT the same as going to the gym without a plan and just doing whatever you feel like doing. NO. NO. NO. YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE A SKELETON GUIDELINE TO WORK WITH. For example,

    Day 1- Squats to 1 RM, then go to movements B thru F.
    Day 2 – Benchpress to 1RM,and so on..
    Day 3 – Sumo Deadlift Technique, and so on..,

    BTW, my personal skeleton plan was:
    Day 1 - Snatch
    Day 2 – Clean & Jerk
    Day 3 - Squats
    Day 4 –Snatch and Clean & Jerk


    Now, get ready for this. There is already an American coach that follows this ABCDEF / Chinese System.







    This coach is the head of the Powerlifting Team at West Point. And if anybody questions if these cadets are ‘clean’ I would say very good chance they are. These guys are officially members of the US Army, so they get urinalysis testing, and they are subject to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice. . Plus if they “cheat” they will get kicked out on an Honor’s Violation.
    Last edited by NorwichGrad; 03-11-2013 at 06:29 AM.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pennsylvania State Weightlifting Championships 2013
    1st Place - 94KG Master

    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
    2nd Place - 85KG Master
    Reply With Quote

  4. #4
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    PART 4 of 5

    TRAINING PSYCHOLOGY

    THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE FIRST PART of this lengthy write-up, because everything really starts in our head.

    Not only must you learn to trust your instincts, and be in tune with your body and study the rhythm of your body, you must also train mentally.

    A lot of things that we do physically are affected by how we think mentally. This happens more than we’d like to admit. On days you feel like a champ, remember that feeling and understand it. Store this positive emotion. On bad days, jot down what you believe caused it. AVOID THE MEDIA OR THE NEWS. They are filled with negativity. Be in tune with happiness and not sadness or anger.

    This is what I was taught, and this is what I learned the past month: “FIND THE FEELING.”

    This is the reason why I stopped watching the news (Yup! Including Foxnews) and participating in religion and politics discussion in the O-35 Misc Section. People are gonna believe what they’re gonna believe. No sense in discussing senseless topics that add zero value to our training and the way we pursue happiness. Let’s be honest, there is negative energy that flows within us when we get our panties in a wad, tighter than a size-1 G-String bikini on a 350-lb Jenny Craig dropout, every time we participate in R/P discussion. Positive mental energy is a must, and 1000X more effective than Celtech, if you want to GET STRONG.
    Last edited by NorwichGrad; 03-11-2013 at 10:35 AM.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pennsylvania State Weightlifting Championships 2013
    1st Place - 94KG Master

    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
    2nd Place - 85KG Master
    Reply With Quote

  5. #5
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    PART 5 of 5

    QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS


    Question 1.

    I have no idea what you talked about in Part 2 of 5.

    Answer.

    No problem. Here is a real life sample.

    Meet the Wolfgang Sisters. It was Clean max day yesterday. We trained to 1RM. Emily (the older sis) happened to set a PR of 105-lbs as well. They both reached RPE of 10. BTW, these girls are not newbies. So their PRs are not newbie gains.



    Then we dropped the intensity to roughly 80% of 1RM, then they did 3 -4 sets of doubles and triples. The reason for this volume is because VOLUME MAKES YOU STRONG. Singles and 1RM will tweak the CNS, volume is key to getting strong.

    When they were going for 1RM, I also identified the recover portion of the lift as the ‘weakest.’ So after doing cleans, I had them to 5 sets of 5 reps of front squats with pause at parallel. Remember that pauses will make you strong. The fronts squats had an RPE if 6-7.

    After front squats, I also had them do additional leg training at lower RPE but higher volume. They did step ups up to 20 reps.







    Here is another real life sample.

    WEEK 3, DAY 1, 9MAR13, SNATCH DAY

    A. Snatch Singles
    60-kg
    65
    68
    70
    72
    72
    77(x)
    76 [RPE 10]







    I identified my weakness as lack of timing in the 3rd pull and also lack of aggressive lockout in the receive position. So, I did the following to address my weaknesses:


    SN Triples with Pause at Knee [RPE 8-9]
    60-kg
    60
    65
    65

    B. Panda Pulls Triples [RPE 8]
    Picked this to work on pull.
    4 sets @ 50-kg

    C. Hip Snatch [RPE 5-6]
    Picked this to work on speed under bar.
    5 Sets x 5 reps @ 50-kg

    Note the high reps in the following:

    D. Snatch Grip RDL [RPE 5]
    Picked this to work on hammies.
    3 sets x 10 reps @ 60kg

    E. One Arm Reverse Tri Pulldown [RPE3]
    Picked this to work on lockout.
    3 sets x 30 reps @ 2.5 kg

    F. CLose Grip Pull Down [RPE 3]
    I felt the need for balance, so I picked this.
    3 sets x 20 reps @ 34 kg





    QUESTION 2. Is this program scalable?
    ANSWER. Yes it is. It could work 1, 2, 3, 4, 5x a week.
    Last edited by NorwichGrad; 03-11-2013 at 02:32 PM.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pennsylvania State Weightlifting Championships 2013
    1st Place - 94KG Master

    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
    2nd Place - 85KG Master
    Reply With Quote

  6. #6
    Registered User GuyJin's Avatar
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    Lemme guess: This is a fillintheblanksofwhatthetrainingsystemis type of thing.

    AmIrite?



    ETA: Sorry about the smart-ass reply above. The info did not feed into my computer right away. Now I see. This is interesting stuff, and a lot of it makes sense. Thanks.
    Last edited by GuyJin; 03-11-2013 at 06:47 AM.
    "Don't call me Miss Kitty. Just...don't."--Catnip

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    Check out my links to Catnip and Death Bytes at DevineDestinies.com/Amazon.com and The Tower at Untreedreads.com/Amazon.com. Twisted and Lindsay Versus the Marauders are available from RegalCrest.biz/Amazon.com.
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  7. #7
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GuyJin View Post
    Lemme guess: This is a fillintheblanksofwhatthetrainingsystemis type of thing.

    AmIrite?

    something like that
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    Originally Posted by GuyJin View Post
    Lemme guess: This is a fillintheblanksofwhatthetrainingsystemis type of thing.

    AmIrite?



    ETA: Sorry about the smart-ass reply above. The info did not feed into my computer right away. Now I see. This is interesting stuff, and a lot of it makes sense. Thanks.
    that's alright. i was expecting a response like yours. no hard feelings. use if you want to use it. don't use it if you want to use other systems. like i said, i have nothing to prove to the e-world. i just want to help those who are willing to help themselves.

    my 15-year-old FEMALE lifter just cleaned 105-lbs yesterday. An almost-master (35 y.o.) lifter did a bodyweight clean and jerk after 18th session. It took me 80th session to CJ my bodyweight 2 years ago at 38, just to give you an idea.

    Stay tuned. more info to come.
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    Deadlift Whisperer ilovethe80s's Avatar
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    skimming over now, looks interesting. This is going to be one for the printer Excited to read, intrigued.
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    Any periodization or deloads?

    Thanks for posting. Seems similar to 531 kinda.
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    An almost-master (35 y.o.) lifter did a bodyweight clean and jerk after 18th session. It took me 80th session to CJ my bodyweight 2 years ago at 38, just to give you an idea.
    Is this 18 sessions from completely untrained state? Because I can do that now and I've only been trying for less than half a dozen sessions, albeit from an already progressing novice state doing strength oriented 5x5 workouts but from untrained, wow, that would be something.
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    Thanks for the questions. I will get back to you asap.
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  13. #13
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    Originally Posted by ilovethe80s View Post
    skimming over now, looks interesting. This is going to be one for the printer Excited to read, intrigued.
    Laura,

    Here is my log:

    http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=10471

    There are several of us Olyers at Pendlay on this program. The principles are 1000% applicable to your sport.
    This above all..
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  14. #14
    Registered User NorwichGrad's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Any periodization or deloads?

    Thanks for posting. Seems similar to 531 kinda.

    Great question, Dru.

    There is NO periodization. Every training session is basically going for 1RM at RPE10, then reducing the intensity to increase the volume, but also decreasing the RPE all the way to RPE 1.

    As far as deloads, the goal is to increase the total tonnage per week, until you 'feel' that you need a break. At which time, you reduce your weekly tonnage by 50%.

    Real life example,

    Week 1 I lifted a total of 22,300 KG.

    Week 2 I lifted a total of 27,00 KG.

    I just finished Day 2 of Week 3 this AM. So far I have lifted a total of 14,200 KG. My plan for the rest of the week is to lift more than last week, as long as my body will tolerate it.

    In all honesty, and I cannot speak for the rest of the O35 crew, but since starting this program I thought I was training HARD. I was wrong. I was actually UNDERTRAINING. Week 1 was difficult, especially with all the high volume. And by Week 2 I was sore as hell. But this week, I FEEL GREAT. No muscle soreness.. I have also made "PRs in random places" which I posted in cmoore's thread, and also my training log.



    In some ways it has a lot of similarities and also differences to 531.

    531 is percent based, and it gives you flexibility to pick your accessory lifts.

    With this program, it is not quite percent-base. If you feel great, then go for broke. If you feel lousy, then do the best you can. This AM's training was a great example. I only did 100KG clean and jerk, mainly because I was tired from the time change. Biologically, it was only 2AM for me. And the 100KG CJ is typically a working weight for me, but this AM it had an RPE of 10.

    One thing about the relationships of Chinese coaches and their lifters is that the lifters have a 'voice' in what they should do. You would think it's weird, especially China is a communist country. But communism has NOTHING to do with their training, you see. For example, the lifter might say to their coach, "Hey coach, I think I should do this today because I feel that this is weak, or this is slow..." You get the idea. The coaches encourage the lifters to voice their feeling because if you think about it, we as individuals and we alone are the only ones who truly feel what we feel.

    That's one of the reason why my coach said "FIND THE FEELING." It's not just the feeling physically, it is also the feeling mentally.


    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by NorwichGrad; 03-11-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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  15. #15
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    Originally Posted by lunchbreak View Post
    Is this 18 sessions from completely untrained state? Because I can do that now and I've only been trying for less than half a dozen sessions, albeit from an already progressing novice state doing strength oriented 5x5 workouts but from untrained, wow, that would be something.
    Great question. I'm glad you asked.



    Here he is. Alec is an endurance athlete. He is a triathlete and competes in Half Iron Man events. As you know, strength transfers over to the other fitness components, but endurance does not necessarily do so.

    Alec is an experienced athlete. But he is NOT a strength athlete in a sense that he maxes out on the squats and deadlifts. In fact, the most he has ever squatted was 180-ish lbs.

    He does 'lift weights' but more or less dumbbells done in high repetitions to get his heart rate high. I have personally witnessed him do:


    a) Ladder drill
    b) Medicine ball
    c) One arm DB press while lying on an exercise ball
    d) Bulgarian split squat while holding a KB overhead with one arm
    e) Lots of fancy unilateral lifts using DB and KB
    f) So on and so forth


    But to answer your question, YES, he began Oly in an untrained state. In fact, the first several sessions were hard because he had difficulty EXPLODING. He was used to 'lifting' slowly that he was also Olying slowly.

    He also just trains Oly 2 or 3 times a MONTH when he is with me. Most of the time he does circuit type training for conditioning.

    BTW, if you have achieved BW CJ in that short amount of time, CONGRATULATIONS!! You have the skills to be an Olyer. I hope you keep at it!!
    Last edited by NorwichGrad; 03-11-2013 at 02:08 PM.
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  16. #16
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    How long are you spending in the gym per workout?
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by thnikkaman View Post
    How long are you spending in the gym per workout?
    Anywhere from 1.5 to 1.75 hrs. I rest minimally to increase my work capacity.
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  18. #18
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    Anywhere from 1.5 to 1.75 hrs. I rest minimally to increase my work capacity.
    Wow. Only my full gvt workouts have taken that long. A commitment for sure. Interesting your thought of under training.
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  19. #19
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Wow. Only my full gvt workouts have taken that long. A commitment for sure. Interesting your thought of under training.
    The toughest part physically are movements A, B and C. By the time I get to D, E, and F, the RPE is around 1 to 3, so they are pretty easy. But the challenging part is the reps up to 50. The thing also with high reps is they do not have to be strict. The are somewhat sloppy, actually. Just enough to wake up the muscles.
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  20. #20
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    Really cool! Will be watching with interest. Thanks for sharing! (and major jelly of your shoulder flexibility.....still working it )
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  21. #21
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    I'm going to try this routine. I've done something like the Bulgarian method before for weight lifting and got great results. My question is, could you possibly go a little more in depth, and possibly make a more filled out skeleton program, for powerlifting. I don't have a ton of experience with doing supporting lifts for powerlifting. For instance on day three on your example you said work on sumo deadlift technique, why would you start with that and not deadlift? I think I understand the program pretty well, but a more filled out skeleton, Monday through Sunday, would really help make sure I do this right.

    I also am a little unsure how often you are supposed to lift. I was basically doing what John Broz said to do, and that was lifting everyday. I can lift 5 days a week, so I don't know exactly how to best split the days up.
    Last edited by Steak514; 03-13-2013 at 08:30 AM.
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    Joel, this looks great, and it came at such an opportune time for me. My normal/ non-peaking programming follows a conjugate type system, which can also be very intuitive. However, when it came to assistance and supplemental lifts, i was constantly crossing out what I had laid out ahead of time in favor of focusing on what went wrong or needed work in the main/max set, and changing my day's assistance work on the fly to focus on that instead. I can be quite dense in terms of drilling in motor patterns and technique changes and this system was helping with that. But at the same time, was a bit frustrated with myself for being romanced away from my plan by assistance work that made most sense at the time, and never being able to stick to my plan as laid out. It is awesome to see it legitimized and advocated here.

    I've been planning out my next phase of training after my back to back meets over the next few weekends, considering programs, and reading this made me realize how important having that feedback between myself and the weights is and that I'd like to continue with that. I like what is done in this program. I feel like the treatment of the main lift could be just what I need to get over the anxiety I feel regarding failing (which I rarely do in training). It is a whole other story if you fail and then immediately think and fix the weak spot. I'll be giving this a go after my meets this month, I feel like it will be a really easy transition. Thanks for posting, and reps on recharge times a billion
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  23. #23
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    Originally Posted by Steak514 View Post
    I'm going to try this routine. I've done something like the Bulgarian method before for weight lifting and got great results. My question is, could you possibly go a little more in depth, and possibly make a more filled out skeleton program, for powerlifting. I don't have a ton of experience with doing supporting lifts for powerlifting. For instance on day three on your example you said work on sumo deadlift technique, why would you start with that and not deadlift? I think I understand the program pretty well, but a more filled out skeleton, Monday through Sunday, would really help make sure I do this right.

    I also am a little unsure how often you are supposed to lift. I was basically doing what John Broz said to do, and that was lifting everyday. I can lift 5 days a week, so I don't know exactly how to best split the days up.
    You bet!!

    This morning was actually Day 3 Strength Day. I am at work now. Tonight I will post vids and explain in greater detail as to why I did what I did. Stand by. Great questions.

    As far as training 5 days a week on a powerlifting movements, let me get with my coach and ask for his input on this.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
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    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
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  24. #24
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    Originally Posted by ilovethe80s View Post
    Joel, this looks great, and it came at such an opportune time for me. My normal/ non-peaking programming follows a conjugate type system, which can also be very intuitive. However, when it came to assistance and supplemental lifts, i was constantly crossing out what I had laid out ahead of time in favor of focusing on what went wrong or needed work in the main/max set, and changing my day's assistance work on the fly to focus on that instead. I can be quite dense in terms of drilling in motor patterns and technique changes and this system was helping with that. But at the same time, was a bit frustrated with myself for being romanced away from my plan by assistance work that made most sense at the time, and never being able to stick to my plan as laid out. It is awesome to see it legitimized and advocated here.

    I've been planning out my next phase of training after my back to back meets over the next few weekends, considering programs, and reading this made me realize how important having that feedback between myself and the weights is and that I'd like to continue with that. I like what is done in this program. I feel like the treatment of the main lift could be just what I need to get over the anxiety I feel regarding failing (which I rarely do in training). It is a whole other story if you fail and then immediately think and fix the weak spot. I'll be giving this a go after my meets this month, I feel like it will be a really easy transition. Thanks for posting, and reps on recharge times a billion
    Thanks for the feedback, Laura. Based on what you have written, my gut feeling is you will do very well in this program.

    Planning is important. Don’t get me wrong. But reality is that there are daily occurrences in our lives, off the platform, that could drastically affect even the best laid out plans. Case in point, I saw actual data of programs of elite Olyers from Russia and Bulgaria. Their coaches even had the programs laid out for the next year! At the end of that year, you guessed it, the goals tonnage-wise, were off by 30% - 40%. Injuries, sickness, this and that, and everything else got in the way of training. Such is life.

    The first week you do this program, you are going to feel lost. .. But just focus on that one thing I mentioned: FIND THE FEELINGS and TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS. If you look at the logs at Pendlay, those who are following this program – including myself - were lost the first week. Eventually most of the followers understood the concept. So trust that you will be one with yourself. You are an experienced lifter, so you should not have any issues targeting the weaknesses.

    Tonight when I get home, I will post the actual training I did this AM, with explanations as to why I did what I did, using the program outline. And hopefully it will become clear to you strength athletes.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    You bet!!

    This morning was actually Day 3 Strength Day. I am at work now. Tonight I will post vids and explain in greater detail as to why I did what I did. Stand by. Great questions.

    As far as training 5 days a week on a powerlifting movements, let me get with my coach and ask for his input on this.
    I just mentioned the 5 days a week, because those are the days I have access to a gym, it's what I have to work with. I don't compete in powerlifting, which is sort of why I like this program in that it combines bodybuilding and powerlifting. So I'm not obsessed with making sure I do powerlifting 5 days a week, if that is what my message came off sounding like. If anything I have ignored bodybuilding for far to long and need to work on that more. Which is why the supporting lifts is the area I definitely feel the least comfortable with.

    I'll definitely check back in, day 3 is probably the most complicated due to the heavy demands of deadlifting, will be interested to see what's recommended.

    Although I got great results focusing on the core lifts, and the core lifts only, I can't help but think a more balanced approach (Like this program) that strengthens the whole body is going to be superior. It's just that I have little experience with supporting lifts, so a more filled out powerlifting schedule would really help.
    Last edited by Steak514; 03-13-2013 at 11:21 AM.
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    Can you provide some more info on the light weights high rep stuff (50plus)
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    My weekly framework in this system is as follows:

    Day 1 – Snatch (and its variations)
    Day 2 – Clean & Jerk (and its variations)
    Day 3 – Strength
    Day 4 – Snatch and Clean & Jerk (and their variations)

    Today is Day 3 Strength. I wanted to document this morning’s training so that our Powerlifting and Strength friends can better relate as to how the system works.

    Just a recap:

    Kung Fu exercises are lifts you are good at. In my case, Back Squats and Front Squats are my Kung Fu strength lifts.

    Kung Fool exercises are lifts you suck at, but want to make them your Kung Fu so that the foundation of your pyramid will be wider and bigger. Sumo Deadlifts and Overhead Squats are examples of my Kung Fool lifts.

    Rate of Perceived Exertion, aka RPE, more important than using percentages.

    The plan is to vary the lifts every week, then go back to those same lifts in 3 to 4 weeks with the goal of setting PRs. These non-competition lift PRs are commonly referred to as “PRs in Random Places.” These will carryover to the competition lifts.

    Reminder: “FIND THE FEELING”

    The main strength lift I picked for today is a Clean Grip Overhead Squat, a Kung Fool lift. Nothing was planned ahead. I did not know what I was going to do until I reached my 1RM for the day. The only known information on my training plan was that today was Strength Day, and I was gonna do OH squat.

    A. Clean Grip Overhead Squat



    Singles
    60-KG
    70
    75
    80
    83 (182-LBS - Baseline PR) [RPE 10]

    WEAKNESSES IDENTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

    a) Upper Back (rhomboids and traps, mainly)
    b) Core
    c) Triceps

    Triples
    65 [RPE 9]
    65 [RPE 9] My position overhead was wobbly due to lack of rhomboid and trap engagement.
    65 [RPE 8] RPE dropped here since I was more aggressive with my upper back support
    65 [RPE 8]

    If you recall in initial explanation, after I reached today’s 1RM of 182-lbs, I dropped the weight to approximately 80% and did several sets of triples. The reason for this is I have to work the volume. Remember: Singles will fine tune the CNS, but it is the volume that will make you strong.

    B. Block Snatch Triples (Guideline recommends RPE 7 – 9)



    40kg [RPE 4] So I bumped the weight
    50
    60 [RPE 8]
    65 [RPE 10] Only did 1 rep, so backed off weight
    60 [RPE 9]

    The only reason I did a variation of the snatch is because I still have to do them, for they are my competition lifts. Movement B is the perfect place to do the Oly lifts on Strength Days.

    But if you are a powerlifter or a strength athlete, remember to do a main strength assistance to suckiness in Movement A, here at Movement B. For example, let’s say you did back squats in A. You felt that the weakness was the recovery portion, and you were getting stuck at parallel. You can do partials or even pauses here at B. Let’s say your 1RM in A was 315-lbs. You can do partial quarter squats at 350-lbs or maybe a 300-lb pause at parallel squats here at B.

    C. Sotts Press (Guideline recommends RPE 5 – 8)



    43 kg x 3 [RPE 7]
    43 x 5
    43 x 5
    43 x 5

    Remember I had mentioned in Movement A that I felt upper back was weak? My legs were plenty strong in A, but the upper back was the limiting factor. So I did Sotts Press here.

    As a side note, when it comes to Oly and when it comes to overhead strength in general, BACK STRENGTH IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN SHOULDER STRENGTH.

    NOTE: I wish to apologize to my bodybuilding friends ahead of time, as you will see that I butchered your beloved sport in Movements D, E and F.

    When it comes to isolation movements, as far as this system goes, it is perfectly acceptable to have some sort of sloppiness in your movement. In other words, isolation exercises do not have to be textbook perfect. The purpose of D, E, and F are to ‘WAKE UP’ the isolated muscles, and not to elicit muscular growth. Although doing high reps of isolation exercises will cause some sort of muscle growth.

    D. One Arm DB Rows (Guideline recommends RPE 3 – 6)



    23 kg x 8 [RPE 3]
    27 x 8 [RPE 6]
    27 x 8
    27 x 8

    I picked this exercise for several reasons: a) To further target my upper back; b) I felt a need to pull since I have done a lot of pushing. Sometimes it’s good to listen to our bodies and do things that will allow us to return to proper structural balance.

    E. Incline Situps with Medicine Ball (Guideline recommends RPE 1 – 5)


    3.5 KG x 20 [RPE 2]
    7 x 20 [RPE 4]
    7 x 20 [RPE 4]
    I picked this exercise because my core was one of the weak movements identified in A.

    F. Reverse Grip Tri Pushdown (Guideline recommends RPE 1 -4)



    4.5 KG X 40 [RPE 1]
    9 X 40 [RPE 3]
    9 X 40

    I picked this exercise because my triceps were also identified as weak.

    I finished the whole workout in 1.5 hours and I lifted a total weight of roughly 7000-KG..

    HOPE THIS HELPS!!
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    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
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  28. #28
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    Originally Posted by Steak514 View Post
    I just mentioned the 5 days a week, because those are the days I have access to a gym, it's what I have to work with. I don't compete in powerlifting, which is sort of why I like this program in that it combines bodybuilding and powerlifting. So I'm not obsessed with making sure I do powerlifting 5 days a week, if that is what my message came off sounding like. If anything I have ignored bodybuilding for far to long and need to work on that more. Which is why the supporting lifts is the area I definitely feel the least comfortable with.

    I'll definitely check back in, day 3 is probably the most complicated due to the heavy demands of deadlifting, will be interested to see what's recommended.

    Although I got great results focusing on the core lifts, and the core lifts only, I can't help but think a more balanced approach (Like this program) that strengthens the whole body is going to be superior. It's just that I have little experience with supporting lifts, so a more filled out powerlifting schedule would really help.
    You can do 2 days of strength and 3 days of bodybuilding.

    For example:

    Day 1: Strength - Deadlift
    Day 2: Bodybuilding
    Day 3: Bodybuilding
    Day 4: Strength - Squat
    Day 5: Bodybuilding

    The only person who knows your strengths and weaknesses is you. SO TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS and be honest with yourself. The above is just a guideline.
    This above all..
    To thine ownself be true..
    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
    -----------------------------------------------

    Pennsylvania State Weightlifting Championships 2013
    1st Place - 94KG Master

    White Rose Barbell Open 2014
    2nd Place - 85KG Master
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  29. #29
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    Originally Posted by DrStriation View Post
    Subbed

    Can you provide some more info on the light weights high rep stuff (50plus)
    The fifty rep stuff is usually done in Movement F. And it does not have to be 50. It could be anywhere from 30 to 50. The key is RPE. If you do an isolation exercise and it's still light by the time you reach 30, then by all means go all the way to 40 or 50 to wake up the muscle.
    This above all..
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    And it must follow, as the night the day..
    Thou can'st not then be false to any man..
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  30. #30
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    You can do 2 days of strength and 3 days of bodybuilding.

    For example:

    Day 1: Strength - Deadlift
    Day 2: Bodybuilding
    Day 3: Bodybuilding
    Day 4: Strength - Squat
    Day 5: Bodybuilding

    The only person who knows your strengths and weaknesses is you. SO TRUST YOUR INSTINCTS and be honest with yourself. The above is just a guideline.
    Thanks for responding. I'll start working this into my routine after next week. I'll have to start learning more about side exercises and identifying weaknesses.
    "No citizen has a right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training...what a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable.- Socrates
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