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Thread: Fatboy needs opinion
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03-12-2013, 03:17 AM #31
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03-12-2013, 04:50 AM #32
- Join Date: Jan 2004
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IS: a strong piece of advice which hasn't been mentioned:
until you get into what I call the "safety zone", which, for you, is probably the low 200s, the AMOUNT of weight you are lifting is irrelevant compared to your health....right now, your primary objective is LOSING WEIGHT....
with that in mind, doing what is essentially a bulking type routine may not be in your best interests right now......
I would rather see you eating up calories during your workouts, meaning, higher reps, faster pace, etc....
gaining muscle will come, but as I said, for you, getting down to a safe and healthy weight should be goal number one.Lift as MUCH as you can, for as MANY reps as you can,
while in complete control of the exercise.
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03-12-2013, 05:05 AM #33
Advocating a carb-based pattern for someone with type II diabetes merely perpetuates the condition into a chronic state. This is the problem with current diabetes nutritional doctrine. Since the condition was caused (etiology) by a sustained, adaptive, carb-based, lipogenic nutritional pattern resulting in ever increasing insulin resistance leading to the diabetic state, alleviation is achieved by following the opposite, or lipolytic, nutritional pattern. If I had followed current medical doctrine rather than understanding the biochemistry, I'd still be both obese as well as diabetic.
I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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03-12-2013, 06:15 AM #34
Here's the problem, specifically as it applies to the OP. His lipogenic adaptation is very high. He has hyperinsulinemia. This accompanies type II diabetes. If he continues to follow a carb-based pattern and merely cut calories, he will experience a one-two hormonal punch. He will experience not only the withdrawal reactions of anorexigenic hormonal (fed-state) resistance, but will also experience true orexigenic (starved-state) hormonal secretions as well. It is this combination that defeats the vast majority of people who try to alleviate obesity. Once the switch is made to a lipolytic nutritional pattern, insulin secretions normalize and resistance is alleviated, glucagon secretion is enabled/optimized, and he is able to burn off his body fat. Now caloric restriction comes into play. He will be able to restrict calories to lose fat, and only have to deal with the orexigenic (starved-state) secretions such as hunger.
I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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03-12-2013, 06:30 AM #35
If diabetes alleviation interests anyone, here's my thread on its alleviation in dogs. I'm preparing a more formal write-up of the process. Start from the beginning..
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=151714923I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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03-12-2013, 06:53 AM #36
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03-12-2013, 06:55 AM #37
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03-12-2013, 02:52 PM #38
This is about the stupidest thing I have ever read on here.
Unless they are insulin dependent (type 1) then they are receiving bad advice. A type 1 can eat whatever they want and take enough units of insulin to cover the carbs. A type 2 makes insulin, but their body is resistant to it. If you eat (too many) carbs your blood glucose spikes and it causes all kinds of problems with the small blood vesels in your eyes, extremities, heart, organs etc. Now the amount of carbs is a YMMV issue.. everyone is different. Some people can eat 300g a day without issue, some can only eat 30. The only way you can arrive at this figure is to slowly introduce carbs and test with a meter.
The doctor is about the worst person you can listen too lulz.... "dont lift heavy weights, you might hurt yourself"
Physicians measure exercise with minutes spent on the treadmill... very rarely will you find one that even advocates lifting beyond some resistance bands and light machine work.
A type 2 diabetic should avoid as many carbs as necessary to avoid high blood glucose readings.... unless you are advocating the "eat whatever the hell you want and medicate to cover the carbs" plan.
It is necessary to avoid carbs if you are hypoglycemic, it just is... do you realize what high blood glucose does to a person long term?
OP don't listen to this guy, (srs)Last edited by billb7581; 03-12-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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03-12-2013, 03:01 PM #39
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03-12-2013, 09:02 PM #40
- Join Date: Sep 2011
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I advocate following the advice of the registered dietitian that would most likely be giving diet recommendations to a diabetic. You recommend the OP avoid his Dr's advice because some ******* on the internet said it crazy and that doctors don't know wtf they are talking about.
It is necessary to avoid carbs if you are hypoglycemic, it just is... do you realize what high blood glucose does to a person long term?
OP don't listen to this guy, (srs)
OP....
. Follow the dietary guidelines given to you by your physician.
. Ask your physician about strength training.
. First and foremost, get in a deficit. Without a deficit there is no weight loss.
. Read all the information in this thread including links.
. Take notes and ask your doctor questions.
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03-12-2013, 09:06 PM #41
500 calories burned doing cardio at 328 pounds is not a lot. If he maintains a heart rate of 130 for 32 minutes, he burns about 500 calories. Is that a lot? It doesn't sound like it to me. But I must admit I don't know this guy very well and don't know what is a safe heart rate for him. If he can only maintain a heart rate of 110 it might take him a significant amount of time to burn 500 calories.
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03-12-2013, 09:36 PM #42
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ls6199, a consistent 2lbs a week weight loss is a good, maintainable goal for the future. You wanted to know how long this would take?
Considering the math that's 104lbs in a year. That's put you at... 228, yeah? If your goal is 190ish then that's another 38 lbs or 19 weeks.
Let's see... carry the one... chew on pencil...
Mid-late July 2014 will have you standing on a scale at 190lbs.330->210. Drop me a PM if you're just getting started and want some advice.
Do what you love and you'll never workout a day in your life.
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03-13-2013, 04:42 AM #43
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BILL! think about what you are saying! When a man weighs an out of shape 350 pounds, or whatever he was, that LAST thing in the world he should be concerned with is sparing muscle...
this isn't you or I coming off a bulk where we have to shed, maybe 20 pounds tops....this is a guy that is 150 pounds overweight and in trouble....
if he successfully gets down to a medically safe weight, THEN, if he is still religiously lifting, he can start to worry about muscle sparing...Lift as MUCH as you can, for as MANY reps as you can,
while in complete control of the exercise.
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03-13-2013, 05:00 AM #44
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I respectfully disagree. I would follow a program that had me lifting heavy, while doing some cardio and diet to control my calories. At his stage he has the unique opportunity to build muscle and lose weight at the same time.
With time, patience and consistency he can look completely different in a year. By lifting heavy he will have a nice solid foundation to build on once h drops the weight. Just my opinion. I came from over 300lbs and did it the wrong way of just running and triying to burn calories with little regard to lifting. I'm still paying the price.☻/
/▌
/ \ Don't care what you do crew.
Former natty ☠ 101- lift heavy things consistently over time as often as you can recover from.
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03-13-2013, 05:32 AM #45
I did much the same thing. I wasn't lifting during my first two years and initial 150lb.+ fat loss. (around 100lbs. more since then as well) I should have been, and lifting heavy. Since its been so many years, I've been able to add around 70lbs.+ back, but I think I could have held onto more of it initially.
I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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03-13-2013, 06:23 AM #46
Typical mainstream doctrine/dogma designed to KEEP people diabetic. It fits the pharma industry business model of keeping diabetes CHRONIC, and therefore profitable. RDs are at least 20 years behind in nutritional science, in most cases. It takes a while for the science to make it into the curriculum. Its amazing how many of them demonize hypoglycemia, (therefore supporting chronic HYPERGLYCEMIA) without a clue that it is merely the initial step towards lipolysis...
Last edited by KLMARB; 03-13-2013 at 06:52 AM.
I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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03-13-2013, 07:03 AM #47
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03-13-2013, 09:08 AM #48
- Join Date: Sep 2011
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Hypoglycemia is not the same as ketosis and not the first step in lipoysis. During normal metabolic health, when in ketosis the liver breaks down fat and amino acids and produces glucose via glycogenolysis and gluconeogenesis. Your blood sugar should be stable (hypoglycemia should not occur), even when in a ketogenic state. If it isn't, you liver isn't doing it's job.
The same BASIC dietary guidelines for losing weight I would give to anyone else, I would give to a diabetic.
- Count / track calories and macros (weighing/measuring all portions).
- Aim for at least a 500 calorie deficit (or about one pound a week).
- Consume 1 gram of protein per pound of lgoal weight.
- Consume .4 grams of fat per pound of goal.
- All other calories can be of any macro of your choice.
- The majority of your food should come from nutrient dense sources.
- Aim for at least 15 grams of fiber per 1000 calories of food.
- Allow for approximately 10% of your calories to be discretionary.
- Periodic refeeds are unnecessary in the obese, but allowing for a single day at maintenance with 20% discretionary calories can be useful in establishing a refeed pattern later on, and help improve sustainability in a diet.
*** For those with metabolic impairment involving the kidneys, you should follow protein guidelines established by your dietitian.
*** For those with diabetes, the more severe the condition, the more you will have to focus on glycemic index and meal timing.
*** Those who are not insulin dependent will do well with the above guidelines.
*** Those who ARE insulin dependent do not have to avoid carbs. It's about closely monitoring and balancing carb intake with activity and medication.
OP... Follow the above guidelines. I would estimate at your size and strength levels an goal of 200 lbs to be reasonable(estimate without pic). With a small multiplier for activity, your BMR is approximately 2700 calories and your TDEE is approximately 3500.
I would suggest you follow the above guidelines with the following numbers.
- 2500 calories (aiming for a 2 lbs a week weight loss).
- Aim for 200 grams of protein.
- Aim for 80 grams of fat.
- This allows for as many as 245 grams of carbs (max).
- Aim for 35-40 grams of fiber (fruit/vegetables/nuts/whole grains).
- Consume most nutrient dense foods.
- Allow for 250 calories (10%) to be discretionary (about the amount of a single soda or candy bar.
- Once a week eat at maintenance (3500 calories) and allow up to 500 discretionary calories (20%)
- If you are not losing at the desired pace (1-2 lbs a week) for two weeks in a row, make small adjustments down in intake and montor.
- If you have impaired kidneys, talk to your Doctor about safe protein intakes.
- If you are insulin dependent, talk to your doctor about your meal plan before beginning.
Strength train if you are capable (which it seems you are). You chose a great program. Cardio isn't needed to lose weight, and shouldn't be used as a primary source of weight loss. Do as much cardio as you want, and as you can tolerate. While not necessary to lose weight, it is an excellent idea to at least include some low or moderate impact work in.Last edited by acrawlingchaos; 03-13-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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03-13-2013, 09:25 AM #49
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03-13-2013, 10:41 AM #50
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03-13-2013, 10:53 AM #51
I was in the same boat you are 4 years ago. Had to decide whether life was better than junk food, TV and the couch. Trust me it is. I too started at the 350 mark. Today I am down to 188 lbs and have never felt better in my life. Your second biggest reward will be when you go back to that doctor one day and there is nothing but positive things for him/her to say. The biggest will be what the mirror and your body say to you. I will admit that it has not been the easiest of journeys. The first year was the hardest but it has gotten easier as time goes by. You get used to good eating and exercising.
One of the things I do not see that you mention is any kind of cardio. I cannot recommend it enough. You can start by walking. With the warm weather just around the corner it would be a good time to start. I started with walking a half a mile a day, five days a week. I remember struggling just to finish. A month later when it became easier I moved it up to 3/4 of a mile. A month later a whole mile. Today, when I change it up and do cardio outdoors a mile is just my warm up to the next 9. You need strength training as well. There is nothing better than a combo of both cardio and strength regiment. Do what your body can handle at first. Strength and stamina will creep up on you slowly. Set small reasonable goals for yourself, otherwise you will set yourself up for failure.
Again, you are going to have to decide how much you want the change. It is so much easier to sit around eat what you want when you want it. The price is high though. You will pay for it with days off of your life. OR do what you already know is good for you and get rewarded with many many more days of good healthy life. Oh and by the way, you can still eat those foods you love in moderation cause you will be working them off and enjoy the couch and tv shows on your rest days.
I wish you all the luck with your journey,. Hope to see your progress here in a few months
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03-13-2013, 12:11 PM #52
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03-13-2013, 03:56 PM #53
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03-13-2013, 04:00 PM #54
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03-13-2013, 04:02 PM #55
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03-13-2013, 04:12 PM #56
He said he is borderline diabetic, so he is borderline type 2.. there is no borderline type 1.. you either have that or you dont.
He needs to lose weight, and the optimal way to do so is by reducing carbs.. he's friggin insulin resistant.
This is how Lyle McDonald believes you should set up the diet in an insulin resistant person... but let's remember OP is not just insulin resistant, he's diabetic... so the optimal diet for him would be even lower carb.
If you’re not insulin sensitive and/or have high insulin secretion, a diet lower in carbs and higher in fat (don’t forget that protein can raise insulin as well) is a better choice. Assuming, again, 40% protein, a good starting place might be 40% protein, 20-30% carbs and 20-30% fat. A further shift to a near ketogenic (or cyclical ketogenic) diet may be necessary, 40% protein, 10-20% carbs and the remainder fat may be the most effective. If protein is set higher, up to 50% protein, carbs would be set at 10-20% with the remainder (20-30%) coming from dietary fat.
LOL.. you don't know if your "friends" diabetes is even well controlled... you're anecdotal experience is that they dont avoid carbs.
In my DIRECT experience, I have half a notebook filled up with what I ate vs blood glucose readings 1 and 2 hours later... guess what? Damn near every high reading coorelates with a carb heavy meal.
I went to diabetes education class for 6 friggin hours on a Saturday.... it was a joke, the CERTIFIED DIABETES EDUCATOR, obstensibly certified by the ADA, said that a diabetics diet is no different than a non diabetic....this is what the ADA espouses, it's just flat out wrong. Most people don't want to hear that they may be deprived of something, so they take a eat whatever you want and medicate approach.
What do you think they did before any of these medicines were invented?
Elliott Proctor Joslin, M.D. (6 June 1869 - 28 January 1962) was the first doctor in the United States to specialize in diabetes and was the founder of today’s Joslin Diabetes Center. He was the first to advocate for teaching patients to care for their own diabetes, an approach now commonly referred to as “DSME” or Diabetes Self-Management Education. He is also a recognized pioneer in glucose management, identifying that tight glucose control leads to fewer and less extreme complications.
Ironically EPJ’s mother was diagnosed one year after he began his practice. Her progress and the work of a German professor shaped EPJ’s theory about how diabetes should be managed and it reflects his future thinking on the matter: diagnose diabetes early, treat the condition vigorously, which included the use of carbohydrate-restricted diets and fasting, and get regular exercise. He assembled 1,000 of his own cases into the first diabetes textbook, The Treatment of Diabetes Mellitus, in which he outlined how he reduced the death rate of his patients by 20 percent. This was the beginning of EPJ’s theory that managing tight control of one’s blood glucose through diet, exercise and constant testing could extend one’s life and prevent complications.
Last edited by billb7581; 03-13-2013 at 04:22 PM.
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03-13-2013, 04:14 PM #57
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03-13-2013, 04:16 PM #58
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03-13-2013, 04:23 PM #59
- Join Date: Jan 2013
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There is a hyooge difference between the obviously true point that lots of people use medication as a crutch rather than sort out their lives, and the apparently serious but frankly absurd suggestion that the medical profession is intentionally mis-treating patients in order to increase the amount of medication sold by so-called "big pharma" (the "big" in that expression serving no purpose whatsover other than to suggest that it must therefore be somehow "bad").
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03-13-2013, 06:06 PM #60
I'm still on some diabetes medication.. one of the safer ones (Metformin). I'm trying like hell to get off though. At the time of my diagnosis when I was pissing (literally) every 5 minutes, medication was appropriate IMO.
Dr says he thinks if things keep progressing like they have, I should be off all meds in August.
I will say that ADA sanctioned diabetes classes are pretty piss poor. The one I went to, I was the only one there who weighed less than 400 pounds (Srs) with some semblence of normal blood sugar. The information I got there was all terrible, the diet didnt work, and it was all happy go lucky nonsense, that you can eat whatever you want, so long as you adjust your insulin dose accordingly. Guess what, I dont want to go on insulin. So I tend to eat things that wont cause a huge spike in blood sugar.
People don't want to be told, that they are going to be deprived of anything. .
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