Show noobs some love

[MARCMANtheDUDE]

So many here have tons of experience and when i noobs ask a questions it is often met with comments like; "read the stickies!!!"

The stickies ARE a great resource, but when you do not know where to start, you can spend a LONG time sorting though all of it.

For example:

I understand that the difference between a Beginner, Novice and Advanced lifter is not the years of lifting of the weight you lift correct?

Why is an advanced routine not ideal?

[Dano85]

So many here have tons of experience and when i noobs ask a questions it is often met with comments like; "read the stickies!!!"

The stickies ARE a great resource, but when you do not know where to start, you can spend a LONG time sorting though all of it.

For example:

I understand that the difference between a Beginner, Novice and Advanced lifter is not the years of lifting of the weight you lift correct?

Why is an advanced routine not ideal?

beginners benefit from more frequency over more volume hence a like 3 times a week full body or 2 times a week upper/lower

your muscles generally only need between 48-72 to recuperate especially in newbies which is why a split that only works each muscle once a week isnt Ideal....

also most newbies do not have the strength to push weights required to do enough damage that they would require a whole week between working that muscle again....

thats why full body compound focused with a linear progression is often recommended for new people so they can get stronger, increase neural efficacy and take advantage of the frequency idea.

also most newbies make bad routines with no progression scheme, no goals, to much volume way to many isolation exercises no squats....you get the idea

[MARCMANtheDUDE]

beginners benefit from more frequency over more volume hence a like 3 times a week full body or 2 times a week upper/lower

your muscles generally only need between 48-72 to recuperate especially in newbies which is why a split that only works each muscle once a week isnt Ideal....

also most newbies do not have the strength to push weights required to do enough damage that they would require a whole week between working that muscle again....

thats why full body compound focused with a linear progression is often recommended for new people so they can get stronger, increase neural efficacy and take advantage of the frequency idea.

also most newbies make bad routines with no progression scheme, no goals, to much volume way to many isolation exercises no squats....you get the idea

This helps!

I am not one to do something I am not ready for, but what are the ways you know you are ready to move on to Novice programmes and then Advanced programs?

For advanced: i thot that is you worked a group HARD that one a week was ideal, no?

[ironwill2008]

So many here have tons of experience and when i noobs ask a questions it is often met with comments like; "read the stickies!!!"

Noobs are directed to the stickies, as well as the 'search' function, because their noob questions have already been answered a million times. And the answer is always the same; very few beginners are unique snowflakes.

[MARCMANtheDUDE]

Noobs are directed to the stickies, as well as the 'search' function, because their noob questions have already been answered a million times. And the answer is always the same; very few beginners are unique snowflakes.

I admit that questions I had could have been found in the search or stickies, but what may seem obvious to an experienced lifer is not to a noobs. Sometime we do not know the question to ask. Sometimes we look at a noob routine and a novice routine and they seem similar expect that the for advanced routines seem to have more ISO moves.
Also, when I see a noob sticky that professes sets of 5, I think of that as the stremgth rage which i thot was reserved only for advanced lifters.
In short, in my noob, inexperienced brain, I see contradictions

[Dano85]

I admit that questions I had could have been found in the search or stickies, but what may seem obvious to an experienced lifer is not to a noobs. Sometime we do not know the question to ask. Sometimes we look at a noob routine and a novice routine and they seem similar expect that the for advanced routines seem to have more ISO moves.
Also, when I see a noob sticky that professes sets of 5, I think of that as the stremgth rage which i thot was reserved only for advanced lifters.
In short, in my noob, inexperienced brain, I see contradictions

its all good, there is a lot too learn but for example look at the first 2 pages how many critique my routine threads do you see, or how my program....if you read through most of them the responses are all the same....

also most people who do splits are doing them to address week points like say triceps or something, they generally know there bodies better then a newbie as well...

[ironwill2008]

I admit that questions I had could have been found in the search or stickies, but what may seem obvious to an experienced lifer is not to a noobs. Sometime we do not know the question to ask. Sometimes we look at a noob routine and a novice routine and they seem similar expect that the for advanced routines seem to have more ISO moves.
Also, when I see a noob sticky that professes sets of 5, I think of that as the stremgth rage which i thot was reserved only for advanced lifters.
In short, in my noob, inexperienced brain, I see contradictions

I have no problem in trying to help someone who has an unusual issue, or a specific question. In fact, that's why I post on this site. Many here can profit from avoiding all the mistakes I've made over the years.



But the stickies list many good beginner programs; I just don't see why every beginner thinks he's different, or requires some special routine. Just about every one of the better beginner programs all share the same basic characteristics anyway.




And as far as the "Rate my Routine" threads go, I don't even see why people post them. If someone feels he has the experience to write his own routine, he should just go ahead and use it; he shouldn't feel the need to get opinions on it. And if he isn't sure if his home-brew routine is any good, he should just pick one from the stickies, use it and gain some RL gym experience.




ETA:
Don't take this post as a rant against you personally, OP; it's not. I'm just stating an opinion in general.

[JBisGod]

I have no problem in trying to help someone who has an unusual issue, or a specific question. In fact, that's why I post on this site. Many here can profit from avoiding all the mistakes I've made over the years.



But the stickies list many good beginner programs; I just don't see why every beginner thinks he's different, or requires some special routine. Just about every one of the better beginner programs all share the same basic characteristics anyway.




And as far as the "Rate my Routine" threads go, I don't even see why people post them. If someone feels he has the experience to write his own routine, he should just go ahead and use it; he shouldn't feel the need to get opinions on it. And if he isn't sure if his home-brew routine is any good, he should just pick one from the stickies, use it and gain some RL gym experience.

Agreed. The same questions are answered daily with the same responses. If that isn't showing noobs love, I don't know what is.

[MARCMANtheDUDE]

I have no problem in trying to help someone who has an unusual issue, or a specific question. In fact, that's why I post on this site. Many here can profit from avoiding all the mistakes I've made over the years.



But the stickies list many good beginner programs; I just don't see why every beginner thinks he's different, or requires some special routine. Just about every one of the better beginner programs all share the same basic characteristics anyway.




And as far as the "Rate my Routine" threads go, I don't even see why people post them. If someone feels he has the experience to write his own routine, he should just go ahead and use it; he shouldn't feel the need to get opinions on it. And if he isn't sure if his home-brew routine is any good, he should just pick one from the stickies, use it and gain some RL gym experience.




ETA:
Don't take this post as a rant against you personally, OP; it's not. I'm just stating an opinion in general.

That makes sense!
Keep in mind that, as a nood, I can spend a very long time going through stickies and searches and if i get an answer, it is not always clear or i get contradicting answers (not all the time)

Examples:
1- I was looking at the reason as to why one should not use a pad for squatting. I read 5 threads. On all of them the poor OP was ridiculed. NOT COOL! So much for using searches

2- looking for a beginner routine in the stickies: I see them there, I read them. I see rep ranges of 5. Then, I read a more advance routine and I see the same rep range and people saying that the reps should not be to failure (like for noobs) and that noobs should have a higher rep rang. SO, as I noob, I get confused then wonder what to do. So I ask on the forum and am told to read the stickies! See my point?

In saying all that, I do see some trying to help noobs and answer our redundant questions which i great!

[ironwill2008]

See my point?

In saying all that, I do see some trying to help noobs and answer our redundant questions which i great!

Sure I see your point, and it's a valid one. Internet forums aren't perfect, and this one is no exception.

I think though, that if you actually look at who is providing the conflicting advices that you'll come to realize that the vast majority of experienced guys will all pretty much have the same opinions on just about all the really important topics and most of the lesser-important ones. Generally, the conflicting info comes from inexperienced posters, those who only know what they've read out of a muscle mag or from what other, equally-inexperienced posters have written here.


This site has more posters offering advice who, themselves, have probably less gym time than the people asking for advice. Some forums (due to the regular posters in these different forums) on this site tolerate this situation more than some other forums.


I guess all I'm trying to say is to be picky about from whom you'll take advice. There are quite a few very knowledgeable people who post regularly in the open forums, but they're greatly outnumbered by the vast hordes of parrots who flood this site. You'll just have to work to figure out who belongs in which group.

[SmithRussell]

I understand your frustration MARCMANtheDUDE, one thing I learned very quickly was how much information/mis-information is out there. I'm sure everyone at some point feels this way when we are starting out, "What is the best workout for me?" well only you will know that, but you won't be able to figure that out till you understand your body. Like ironwill said start with one of the beginner programs, really, just pick one and stick with it. Check forums daily, read articles and eventually you will start to get a better understanding of exercises, programs and what works for you. Think of it like this, we go to school to get an education, which prepares us for the real world and the rest of our lives. A beginner program is just like this, it prepares your for more advanced/tailored routines later on down the road.

[davisj3537]

You'll just have to work to figure out who belongs in which group.

^This.

You'll get this once you spend more time in the gym, understand your body better and have more experience. The more experience you have the easier it will be to see who doesn't know quite what they are talking about. Doing too few reps or too many isn't going to kill you as a beginner. Small things don't make a huge difference so don't over think stuff.

The more you read on here once you learn who to listen to the more you'll learn. I had been training for years and thought myself to be fairly knowledgeable (false). I learn new stuff every single day browsing on here.

[easye7]

also most newbies do not have the strength to push weights required to do enough damage that they would require a whole week between working that muscle again....

I've always been a bit confused by this, isn't that relative? I understand that more advanced lifters are better at getting more out of their sets (if that makes sense), but I've never really understood the whole "you need to be stronger to build muscle". Wouldn't the weight you push be the same difficulty, relative to that persons current size/strength? I hope that made sense, and I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't fully understand it.

[davisj3537]

I've always been a bit confused by this, isn't that relative? I understand that more advanced lifters are better at getting more out of their sets (if that makes sense), but I've never really understood the whole "you need to be stronger to build muscle". Wouldn't the weight you push be the same difficulty, relative to that persons current size/strength? I hope that made sense, and I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't fully understand it.

I believe that more advanced lifters are able to recruit more muscle fibers to push the weight. Beginners can't jump in the gym and efficiently use all their muscles. That isn't a very good way to describe it. I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it much better, but I believe this is headed in the right direction.

[easye7]

I believe that more advanced lifters are able to recruit more muscle fibers to push the weight. Beginners can't jump in the gym and efficiently use all their muscles. That isn't a very good way to describe it. I'm sure someone else will be able to explain it much better, but I believe this is headed in the right direction.

I completely agree with what you're saying, I think it's basically what I meant about advanced lifts being able to "get more out of their sets". Beginners are much more likely to just give up on a set when it gets too difficult, an advanced lifted knows what their body can handle, and how to get it done.

[Dano85]

I've always been a bit confused by this, isn't that relative? I understand that more advanced lifters are better at getting more out of their sets (if that makes sense), but I've never really understood the whole "you need to be stronger to build muscle". Wouldn't the weight you push be the same difficulty, relative to that persons current size/strength? I hope that made sense, and I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't fully understand it.

one of the ways i look at it is like this.....a good linear progression program will have increase you weight at a much faster rate the the plans most newbies want to do....so look ahead 4 months down the road both started bench 135lbs

newbie A (strength) now has a 1rm bench of say 205

Newbie B (split) now has a 1rm bench of 165....

who do you think can be doing higher working sets of 10 reps...

this is why I think a good strength program is good to start on....

[davisj3537]

Beginners are much more likely to just give up on a set when it gets too difficult, an advanced lifted knows what their body can handle, and how to get it done.

Well that isn't quite what I meant. It isn't a matter of want, it is a matter of training and recruiting all of these fibers to work together. It happens over time and with adequate training. I'm sure someone else will chime in and explain it better. Like I said I don't quite have a good enough grasp on how it works to explain it well.

[Wildtim]

That makes sense!
Keep in mind that, as a nood, I can spend a very long time going through stickies and searches and if i get an answer, it is not always clear or i get contradicting answers (not all the time)

Examples:
1- I was looking at the reason as to why one should not use a pad for squatting. I read 5 threads. On all of them the poor OP was ridiculed. NOT COOL! So much for using searches

It raises the bar off the back creating a higher center of gravity, reducing the weight you can use, and increasing the danger of the exercise. Also pads are slippery causing early failure. DO NOT USE THEM.

2- looking for a beginner routine in the stickies: I see them there, I read them. I see rep ranges of 5. Then, I read a more advance routine and I see the same rep range and people saying that the reps should not be to failure (like for noobs) and that noobs should have a higher rep rang. SO, as I noob, I get confused then wonder what to do. So I ask on the forum and am told to read the stickies! See my point?

In saying all that, I do see some trying to help noobs and answer our redundant questions which i great!

I'm trying to thing where in the original post of a stickied thread anyone says anything like this?

Advanced routines are not ideal because advanced lifters can't gain much muscle and they have to work very very hard for every ounce. A beginner doesn't for a beginner it is easy to gain muscle so simpler programming works well for them. Beginners also lack the work capacity of someone with years of experience meaning that they will not be able to complete that marathon sessions an advanced lifter requires. At the same time the beginner doing an advanced routine can only gain muscle so fast any work done past the point where gains are stimulated is simply wasted or worse it lengthens recovery time for no extra gain. in short an advanced routine in the hands of a beginner will work slower and lead to greater injury than a beginner routine.

[einstein197]

That makes sense!
Keep in mind that, as a nood, I can spend a very long time going through stickies and searches and if i get an answer, it is not always clear or i get contradicting answers (not all the time)

Examples:
1- I was looking at the reason as to why one should not use a pad for squatting. I read 5 threads. On all of them the poor OP was ridiculed. NOT COOL! So much for using searches

2- looking for a beginner routine in the stickies: I see them there, I read them. I see rep ranges of 5. Then, I read a more advance routine and I see the same rep range and people saying that the reps should not be to failure (like for noobs) and that noobs should have a higher rep rang. SO, as I noob, I get confused then wonder what to do. So I ask on the forum and am told to read the stickies! See my point?

In saying all that, I do see some trying to help noobs and answer our redundant questions which i great!

The fact of the matter is lifting is a science, and as science goes there are a million different answers to the same questions. There are proven methods for this and that but for the most part one could argue why their program is good. the stickies are good because there are programs with tons of reviews and proven results, do not focus too much on all the little science terms behind it all. A certified strength and conditioning coach could post a great workout and people would still pick it apart, not because it is wrong, just because it is not the way they learned to exercise. For insistence, I never touch a leg press machine, there wasn't even one in my college weight room, I have been told over and over it puts too much pressure on the lower spine so I have never done them, while others will think that is crazy and do leg press all the time and both of us may have equally strong legs.

[einstein197]

Well that isn't quite what I meant. It isn't a matter of want, it is a matter of training and recruiting all of these fibers to work together. It happens over time and with adequate training. I'm sure someone else will chime in and explain it better. Like I said I don't quite have a good enough grasp on how it works to explain it well.

you are born with a certain number of muscle fibers. More fibers are never produced, the ones that are there just get stronger. Your fibers work efficiently as possible, they use as little fibers possible to lift a certain weight. I have no idea if what the algorithm is or if there even is one for the rate at which these fibers can progress. But it makes sense to think that someone who benches 225 for 12 reps is going to require more fibers than a someone who is doing say 135 for 12 reps. Therefore more fibers are being broken down per lift by someone stronger. Does this make sense to everyone?

[Dano85]

you are born with a certain number of muscle fibers. More fibers are never produced, the ones that are there just get stronger. Your fibers work efficiently as possible, they use as little fibers possible to lift a certain weight. I have no idea if what the algorithm is or if there even is one for the rate at which these fibers can progress. But it makes sense to think that someone who benches 225 for 12 reps is going to require more fibers than a someone who is doing say 135 for 12 reps. Therefore more fibers are being broken down per lift by someone stronger. Does this make sense to everyone?

yes this is what i was trying to say with my examples, why it makes sense to try to get stronger.....will rep you when im off spread...

[davisj3537]

you are born with a certain number of muscle fibers. More fibers are never produced, the ones that are there just get stronger. Your fibers work efficiently as possible, they use as little fibers possible to lift a certain weight. I have no idea if what the algorithm is or if there even is one for the rate at which these fibers can progress. But it makes sense to think that someone who benches 225 for 12 reps is going to require more fibers than a someone who is doing say 135 for 12 reps. Therefore more fibers are being broken down per lift by someone stronger. Does this make sense to everyone?

I wasn't trying to give the message that you can actually build new fibers, just that your body learns to better recruit them for the lift (increase efficiency). Don't get me wrong, I do agree with what you and Dano said.

The below tidbits will shed some light on what I was talking about. This article is geared towards explaining the truth behind the term muscle memory. It helps to shed light on how more advanced lifters do actually have better muscle efficiency or "motor recruitment" than beginners. Not that this is a "credible" source, but it speaks briefly about what I was trying to reference.

"At the onset of a training program we see rapid strength gains within the first few weeks of training. This is due to the ability of the neural circuits to work with your muscles and vice versa. The rapid increases in strength indicate greater efficiency of the two working together to perform the task. This occurs at the neuromuscular junction...the muscle is more efficient at performing the task when performed over a period of time in workouts due to the ability of the nervous system to convey signals to the muscle"

Here is the link if anyone would care to read more. I don't agree with everything in this article but it does explain a few things. The fourth paragraph is where this quote is from.
http://www.rxmuscle.com/rx-girl-arti...-debunked.html

[Jasonk282]

I've always been a bit confused by this, isn't that relative? I understand that more advanced lifters are better at getting more out of their sets (if that makes sense), but I've never really understood the whole "you need to be stronger to build muscle". Wouldn't the weight you push be the same difficulty, relative to that persons current size/strength? I hope that made sense, and I'm not saying it's wrong, I just don't fully understand it.

What's easier to recover from, squatting 135*5 or 315*5? The lighter the weights the faster you recover. Soon you'll start getting to the point where you can not recover at the same rate that you did when you started, that's usually when you have to run a split(upper/lower or push/pull) so you go from hitting everything 3x a week to 2x a week...eventually it will go to once a week.

[Jasonk282]

That makes sense!
Keep in mind that, as a nood, I can spend a very long time going through stickies and searches and if i get an answer, it is not always clear or i get contradicting answers (not all the time)

Examples:
1- I was looking at the reason as to why one should not use a pad for squatting. I read 5 threads. On all of them the poor OP was ridiculed. NOT COOL! So much for using searches

2- looking for a beginner routine in the stickies: I see them there, I read them. I see rep ranges of 5. Then, I read a more advance routine and I see the same rep range and people saying that the reps should not be to failure (like for noobs) and that noobs should have a higher rep rang. SO, as I noob, I get confused then wonder what to do. So I ask on the forum and am told to read the stickies! See my point?

In saying all that, I do see some trying to help noobs and answer our redundant questions which i great!

Your best bet is to look at the people making comments. Like ironwill stated most experienced ones usually have a consistent message no matter who it is coming from. A few things details might be different, but the meat of the message will be the same.

For example Dano might prefer 5x5, while I might prefer 10*3, but we both understand that getting stronger for reps is the key...how you do that is up to the individual.

Though I would never put a beginner on a 10*3 set up

[tazui1982]

So many here have tons of experience and when i noobs ask a questions it is often met with comments like; "read the stickies!!!"

The stickies ARE a great resource, but when you do not know where to start, you can spend a LONG time sorting though all of it.

For example:

I understand that the difference between a Beginner, Novice and Advanced lifter is not the years of lifting of the weight you lift correct?

Why is an advanced routine not ideal?

Advance routines will work for beginners too, especially they look really cool and they usually work for about 4 weeks. I had an experience training with a big guy with 7 years of lifting experience, we pretty much did the same thing when training together he just put more weight on the bar. I saw a good gains but than stopped after 4 weeks. My point's do whatever you feel like and experiment with your body if you are a self-taught type if not than sticky is ideal :-)

[JBisGod]

Advance routines will work for beginners too, especially they look really cool and they usually work for about 4 weeks. I had an experience training with a big guy with 7 years of lifting experience, we pretty much did the same thing when training together he just put more weight on the bar. I saw a good gains but than stopped after 4 weeks. My point's do whatever you feel like and experiment with your body if you are a self-taught type if not than sticky is ideal :-)

Of course you CAN see good results on an advanced routine but you're almost guaranteed to have better results on a beginner routine if you are a beginner. Most people who are "self taught" are more like "muscle mag and bb.com article taught" and are using splits that annihilate one muscle per day, which is totally unnecessary at their level.

If you were applying for two similar jobs, and one paid twice as much, which would you choose? You'll make money on both of them...

[easye7]

one of the ways i look at it is like this.....a good linear progression program will have increase you weight at a much faster rate the the plans most newbies want to do....so look ahead 4 months down the road both started bench 135lbs

newbie A (strength) now has a 1rm bench of say 205

Newbie B (split) now has a 1rm bench of 165....

who do you think can be doing higher working sets of 10 reps...

this is why I think a good strength program is good to start on....

Here's my question though (continuing with newbie A and B). Assuming they are both lifting for size (and if that's not the assumption, then this all goes out the window obviously), and both are doing 3x10 with x% of their 1RM. Does the one who is lifting more weight (Newb A) supposedly see more gains than Newb? I'm genuinely curious about this, relative to their strength levels aren't they both doing the same amount of "work" technically? Is there some factor I'm missing out on?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against strength routines (did SL myself), I have just always wondered about this.

[Jasonk282]

Advance routines will work for beginners too, especially they look really cool and they usually work for about 4 weeks. I had an experience training with a big guy with 7 years of lifting experience, we pretty much did the same thing when training together he just put more weight on the bar. I saw a good gains but than stopped after 4 weeks. My point's do whatever you feel like and experiment with your body if you are a self-taught type if not than sticky is ideal :-)

You can make progress on ANY routine. But like others had said, why would you want to limit the type of progress you can make. If you goal is strength or even size you'd want the program that can get your there the fastest...right?

[SuffolkPunch]

You can make progress on ANY routine. But like others had said, why would you want to limit the type of progress you can make. If you goal is strength or even size you'd want the program that can get your there the fastest...right?

Then he runs the risk of accidental hugeness or getting far too strong.

[Jasonk282]

Then he runs the risk of accidental hugeness or getting far too strong.

I know, it happened to me. I did one week of SS and went froma 145 lbs squat to 315 lbs over night...