Down Syndrome Abortion.....

[psychnurse2012]

Not when you're referring to having to take care of your child for the rest of their lives because they are unable to do things for themselves.

with the extreme cases, for sure.

also as someone said, checked the percentage, it's 5% for the 3 tests, so not sure where the doctor got 15%. or maybe that's an updated info on it?

[Vikingblood666]

Brb friend
Brb doc said her baby would have downs
Brb doc said do you want abortion
Brb they said no
Brb baby didnt have downs the test isnt 100%

[SebastianG]

Ur call brah, but I'd abort a down syndrome child. They will need full care until the day you die. It's not fair on the child, and not fair on you. Both you and your partners careers will be over, you will be forced onto Government benefits and live in borderline poverty until the child is old enough to get a job, which because of their low IQ (srs) the only job they can get will be something like a cleaner.

The average IQ of someone with down syndrome is 50. Srs.

Agreed 100%

[vincelombard]

if you had a choice ... as an future human... to be born with downs, or aborted then created again as a normal human which would you pick?

lol wut? u bhuudist brah?

[2020Wellness]

what's the reasons for such a young couple to do such a test?

Pretty standard stuff.

[HulkDiesel]

The original question was about down's syndrome. Not autism.

No ****, and with both cases in extreme cases you have to take care of your child for the rest of your life.

[NY Money Mike]

I think a lot of you guys are missing the most important thing. If OP was told 100% THE CHILD WILL HAVE DOWNS I'm pretty sure he and most of us would abort. The issue is the false positive rate of 15%

I'm very PRO abortion. Having said that lets look at the numbers

15% false positive.

Suppose 100,000 tests are given.

Actual Rate of down syndrome: 1 in 691 (retrieved from http://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/ab...syndrome/#freq)

Which in our sample of 100,000 is 145 people will actually have down syndrome.


Of remaining 99,855 some will test positive, this rate is 15%

So on average, number of false positives will be 99,855*.15 = 14,978.25 (WOW!!!)

This means, The total number of positive tests is 145 + 14,978.25 = 15,123.25

The proportion of correct positive results - (145 / (145 + 14978.25) = .0096 = .96%

In conclusion, the probability that the person has the disease given that their test was positive is only .96%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT EVEN ONE FULL PERCENT

Please check my numbers and math but this is real. And given that information, I would say the test is useless.

[trinearnats]

So you have no issue with murder either? How does that fit into your Neo-Christianity?

And how can you claim to be a Christian if you don't even follow the teachings of the man who started it and doubt his very existence?

its hard to explain my beliefs fully. i think jesus was real but I dont even think you need to believe in him to go to heaven. i dont even believe there is much of a heaven and the afterlife is alot more complicated.

im pretty much making up my religion as i go along, looking at existence and thinking about what makes the most sense to me and i go with it.

currently, what makes the most sense to me is god created this world as a testing ground of good and evil. Good put within each of us a moral code and i believe 99.99999999999999% of murderers REALIZE in their hearts that what they are doing is wrong, they are CHOOSING to break the moral code that god put inside them. 99.99999999999% of the timer murders KNOW they are picking evil.

So in my heart I see nothing wrong with abortion. So it makes it right when I do it in the eyes of god.

If a murderer out there HONESTLY can kill without knowing its wrong, then he will not be judged in the eyes of god for being evil. However that is 0.0000000000000000001% of ever existing and he will be taken out quickly


If you KNOW IN YOUR HEART that you are doing something wrong. Then god will judge you for being evil. Thats what I believe. You know IN YOUR HEART what you are doing, and I trust in that. Thats my main belief.

[Skinnygeorge]

yes, a fetus isnt even human so i dunno why people make such a big deal out of it. abort it and then make another baby = problem solved

[BloodFireDeath]

Not trying to stir sht up, but you have to keep in mind that Down's is not just mental retardation. Other diseases that Down's syndrome people will have:
- Hypothyroidism in 1/3rd
- Heart disease from birth in 1/2
- increased risk of duodenal atresia, other diseases of the gut
- vision problems, refractive errors, cataracts
- hearing impairment in 1/2
-increased predisposition to fractures
-infertility
- some cancers

[basement iron]

I know a guy that has down syndrome and works two jobs, walks and takes the bus to both of them. He works harder than most people. However he doesn't have that full 100% down syndrome. He can hold a conversation with you but would never be able to do some things such as driving.

[2020Wellness]

Not when you're referring to having to take care of your child for the rest of their lives because they are unable to do things for themselves.

This isn't always the case. My daughter was on the spectrum until she was 4 years old. She attended specialized schooling 40 hours per week at the age of 3, is finishing up her 2nd year of preschool, has been relieved of any specialized services as a result of no longer being on the spectrum, and is currently functioning at a 6-7 year old level in all areas.

Of course, this isn't representative of all autism cases, but I thought I'd add some personal perspective.

[HulkDiesel]

This isn't always the case. My daughter was on the spectrum until she was 4 years old. She attended specialized schooling 40 hours per week at the age of 3, is finishing up her 2nd year of preschool, has been relieved of any specialized services as a result of no longer being on the spectrum, and is currently functioning at a 6-7 year old level in all areas.

Of course, this isn't representative of all autism cases, but I thought I'd add some personal perspective.

Well obviously she didn't have an extreme case of autism, the guys I take care of at my job can't even dress themselves. I have to pick out their clothes and even watch over them while they eat to make sure they chew their food before they swallow.

[oe7Leo]

I think it has alot to do with religion

as a religious "neo christian" i believe god is real but i believe logically life is about fun and happiness, down syndrome will have much less happiness than a regular baby.

i am religious so i believe spirits go into bodies and leave when they die. if you abort a baby with bad DNA, all your doing is making the spirit leave the body and go into another baby. So in the end, your not killing anything your just trashing the DNA and letting the spirit go into another body

so if you are "religious" and believe in "spirits" like me, then as long as your god doesnt have a problem with abortion then abortion is totally fine and acceptable. I see nothing wrong with abortion because i realize your just killing the DNA and the spirit can just go into another body so the spirit likely thanks you.

i realize the christian god doesnt like abortion however i consider myself "neo christian" i think jesus is likely real but i think god also put organized religion on this planet with retarded rules / accepted beliefs to trick people into being stupid so god can see who the stupid spirits are and who the smart spirits are

however, if you are athiest, then every piece of DNA is a new life and should deserve its "chance to live" essentially...



edit: and also, obviously, if i was given mental retardation tomorrow i wouldnt want to just be killed. if i was smart enough to live i might still want to live a few years mentally retarded just to see what its like and then id kill myself to let my spirit go into another body.

i believe in spirits. if i lost my legs tomorrow i would probably kill myself just to release my spirit.

i dont believe we should ever murder a creature is capable of self reflected intelligence and can conceive of the concept of its own death. babies in the womb dont count toward that rule.

But a child after being born for 10 minutes can start to feel fear and should not be murdered

So many things wrong with this, i don't know where to start. But, here's a list:

1. Down's persons have been shown to have higher levels of satisfaction with their life vs "normal" people. So, they have as much if not more HAPPINESS
2. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE AN ATHEIST TO BELIEVE THAT a specific set of DNA/Chromsosomes = LIFE.
3. If you believe in spirts, I have no problem with that. However, belief in spirits DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE RIGHT TO KILL. IF it did, I could KILL YOU, and just shrug my shoulders and say " NO WORRIES, HIS SPIRIT WILL JUST GO INTO SOMEONE ELSE". If you want to kill yourself, that's fine.
4. LOL AT A CHILD BEING ABLE TO FEAR AFTER 10MINS??? Where do you get these ridiculous ideas/numbers. Do you just make them up? A newborn has reflexes to loud noises immediately after birth, but so does an EMBRYO at some point well before BIRTH.

[Flareon]

Take the test multiple times, i.e 10 times roughly.
Average it. Then ask yourself, is this percentage worth the risk?

[Puur]

My aunt has down syndrome, with the worst symptoms, still amazes me howmuch she enjoys the smallest things in life, like seeing her 94 year old mother.
Things that we take for granted are so special to her.

[vincelombard]

[s]I think it has alot to do with religion

as a religious "neo christian" i believe god is real but i believe logically life is about fun and happiness, down syndrome will have much less happiness than a regular baby.

i am religious so i believe spirits go into bodies and leave when they die. if you abort a baby with bad DNA, all your doing is making the spirit leave the body and go into another baby. So in the end, your not killing anything your just trashing the DNA and letting the spirit go into another body

so if you are "religious" and believe in "spirits" like me, then as long as your god doesnt have a problem with abortion then abortion is totally fine and acceptable. I see nothing wrong with abortion because i realize your just killing the DNA and the spirit can just go into another body so the spirit likely thanks you.

i realize the christian god doesnt like abortion however i consider myself "neo christian" i think jesus is likely real but i think god also put organized religion on this planet with retarded rules / accepted beliefs to trick people into being stupid so god can see who the stupid spirits are and who the smart spirits are

however, if you are athiest, then every piece of DNA is a new life and should deserve its "chance to live" essentially...



edit: and also, obviously, if i was given mental retardation tomorrow i wouldnt want to just be killed. if i was smart enough to live i might still want to live a few years mentally retarded just to see what its like and then id kill myself to let my spirit go into another body.

i believe in spirits. if i lost my legs tomorrow i would probably kill myself just to release my spirit.

i dont believe we should ever murder a creature is capable of self reflected intelligence and can conceive of the concept of its own death. babies in the womb dont count toward that rule.

But a child after being born for 10 minutes can start to feel fear and should not be murdered[/se]

TROLLLLLLL


detected

[Dec4y]

Wife's wants genetic test for it as soon as she can. We understand its a crap shoot as far as autism ETC goes but I know she does would not continue pregnancy for Downs.

[trinearnats]

So many things wrong with this, i don't know where to start. But, here's a list:

1. Down's persons have been shown to have higher levels of satisfaction with their life vs "normal" people. So, they have as much if not more HAPPINESS
2. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE AN ATHEIST TO BELIEVE THAT a specific set of DNA/Chromsosomes = LIFE.
3. If you believe in spirts, I have no problem with that. However, belief in spirits DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE RIGHT TO KILL. IF it did, I could KILL YOU, and just shrug my shoulders and say " NO WORRIES, HIS SPIRIT WILL JUST GO INTO SOMEONE ELSE". If you want to kill yourself, that's fine.
4. LOL AT A CHILD BEING ABLE TO FEAR AFTER 10MINS??? Where do you get these ridiculous ideas/numbers. Do you just make them up? A newborn has reflexes to loud noises immediately after birth, but so does an EMBRYO at some point well before BIRTH.

like i said. 99.99999% of the time a murderer knows he is breaking his morality in his heart

if you can kill me without breaking your morality. then go ahead. only god will judge you. my spirit will just go into another body

you KNOW IN YOUR HEART whether or not you are committing evil. That is the primary belief of my religion. In this world you pick good or evil and you make the decision in your heart before you commit the act.

[BloodFireDeath]

I'm very PRO abortion. Having said that lets look at the numbers

15% false positive.

Suppose 100,000 tests are given.

Actual Rate of down syndrome: 1 in 691 (retrieved from http://www.globaldownsyndrome.org/ab...syndrome/#freq)

Which in our sample of 100,000 is 145 people will actually have down syndrome.


Of remaining 99,855 some will test positive, this rate is 15%

So on average, number of false positives will be 99,855*.15 = 14,978.25 (WOW!!!)

This means, The total number of positive tests is 145 + 14,978.25 = 15,123.25

The proportion of correct positive results - (145 / (145 + 14978.25) = .0096 = .96%

In conclusion, the probability that the person has the disease given that their test was positive is only .96%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please check my numbers and math but this is real. And given that information, I would say the test is useless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox

[Cruiser]

We made that decision 15 years ago; we have a son who has Downs Syndrome. He has been one of the biggest blessings we have ever had. We have 6 boys; he is the only one with Downs. By the way, not everyone with Downs is the same; they all have different levels (some can even function on their own. In any event, we do not regret our decision at all. Life comes with all kinds of struggles, but this is not one of them --- it's easy.

Cruiser

[MURedHawk235]

Well OP if you do have a kid with downs you will be very proud of him. If he plays sports he will always be a captain and he will always be voted prom and homecoming king/queen.

[PissantSoldier]

its hard to explain my beliefs fully. i think jesus was real but I dont even think you need to believe in him to go to heaven. i dont even believe there is much of a heaven and the afterlife is alot more complicated.

im pretty much making up my religion as i go along, looking at existence and thinking about what makes the most sense to me and i go with it.

currently, what makes the most sense to me is god created this world as a testing ground of good and evil. Good put within each of us a moral code and i believe 99.99999999999999% of murderers REALIZE in their hearts that what they are doing is wrong, they are CHOOSING to break the moral code that god put inside them. 99.99999999999% of the timer murders KNOW they are picking evil.

So in my heart I see nothing wrong with abortion. So it makes it right when I do it in the eyes of god.

If a murderer out there HONESTLY can kill without knowing its wrong, then he will not be judged in the eyes of god for being evil. However that is 0.0000000000000000001% of ever existing and he will be taken out quickly


If you KNOW IN YOUR HEART that you are doing something wrong. Then god will judge you for being evil. Thats what I believe. You know IN YOUR HEART what you are doing, and I trust in that. Thats my main belief.

Now this is pretty off topic here but care to explain how you can claim to be a Christian yet what you believe is pretty much the polar opposite in many regards to actual Biblical beliefs?

[NY Money Mike]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive_paradox

Yes, exactly... It's shocking. And more people should know:

When the incidence, the proportion of those who have a given condition, is lower than the test's false positive rate, even tests that have a very low chance of giving a false positive in an individual case will give more false than true positives overall.[2] So, in a society with very few infected people—fewer proportionately than the test gives false positives—there will actually be more who test positive for a disease incorrectly and don't have it than those who test positive accurately and do. The paradox has surprised many.[3]

[Forest239]

Also to those of you who would definitely abort a downs baby, would you not instead consider giving it up for adoption? That way it has a good chance of going to a family who genuinely want it and can properly raise it.

Bro please go adopt a mentally handicapped child you dumb phuck.

Less than 5% of handicapped children are adopted.

BRB I am not aborting this child so I can abandon it without anyone to ever love it.

__________________________

OP I hate to say it but if the child couldn't survive at 14-18 2,000 years ago I would abort it.

[BloodFireDeath]

Yes, exactly... It's shocking. And more people should know:

When the incidence, the proportion of those who have a given condition, is lower than the test's false positive rate, even tests that have a very low chance of giving a false positive in an individual case will give more false than true positives overall.[2] So, in a society with very few infected people—fewer proportionately than the test gives false positives—there will actually be more who test positive for a disease incorrectly and don't have it than those who test positive accurately and do. The paradox has surprised many.[3]

Yeah, a different method is used to find the usefulness of screening tests for low incidence rare diseases, it is adjusted according to different population samples. How, I don't know, some statistics brah could shed some light?

[NY Money Mike]

Yeah, a different method is used to find the usefulness of screening tests for low incidence rare diseases, it is adjusted according to different population samples. How, I don't know, some statistics brah could shed some light?

Are you saying that the 15% false positive rate OP said isnt a mathematical false pos rate? And is instead some rate calculated in a different way that would be more accurate?

[Jester78]

wow OP, this was one of the few irreconcilable differences between my ex wife and I, except it was the other way around. She would want to keep it, and I was for aborting. Big thing with this was that she had a cousin that was so handicapped she couldnt even form words and not to sound mean, but pretty much spent her day making strange sounds and drooling all over herself all day. If you went in to give her a hug, she would try and rip your ear off or gouge your eyes out.

Her aunt and uncle had to give her up due to not having the time to care for her, being their money was drained through the situation and they needed to work more to survive. And my ex wife still couldnt learn from this. Women can be so damn stupid sometimes.

[bigfish18q]

Before ever having kids I probably would have went the abort route.. but after having my son, I wouldn't care if that kid ate his own poop. I love that little fukker

[BloodFireDeath]

Are you saying that the 15% false positive rate OP said isnt a mathematical false pos rate? And is instead some rate calculated in a different way that would be more accurate?

Could be, not sure tbh. But I do know that this question has come up in the past, and there's some fukked up adjustments to be made to judge how useful a particular test is.

Also, we have been missing the most important point in this discussion.

1. The false positive rates are not 15%, they are closer to 5%. (assuming the screening test OP was talking about was Nuchal Transluscency/NT)

2. It is a screening test, meaning it is meant to be sensitive, not specific, false positives don't matter but there should be no false negatives

3. After the screening tests, the positives are to be further evaluated by other more SENSITIVE methods like chromosome testing and targeted ultrasounds, which will confirm the diagnosis, only then is an abortion to be considered

Lol don't know how I missed this, OP imo there is some miscommunication with the doctor, or you are only going for the non-invasive tests?