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  1. #61
    do u even lift? ven33's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    Nah, I'd rather discuss the situation surrounding this 6 year old, not attempt to engage another one.
    </3
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  2. #62
    Closed for Reno RugbyTank's Avatar
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    ^^^
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  3. #63
    we flawless illiniStrive's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ven33 View Post
    </3
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  4. #64
    ♚ Elected V.P. - R/P ♚ sawoobley's Avatar
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    Things were so much simpler when I was growing up. Props to the kids who grow up in this day and age and have to confront these issues.
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  5. #65
    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FitnessCPA View Post
    I still don't understand what transgender really means. So this boy wants to be a girl, is that it? Just tell the sissy no, you're a boy and start acting like it before you get beat up.
    Srs question to you and others. Do you think a child of young age(3-4) is actually capable of making a decision as to what gender they are? If not, then isn't that child really mentally the gender they identify with? I don't think the child is just 'wanting' to be the opposite sex, they feel/think they are the opposite sex. I don't think it is a conscious choice.
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  6. #66
    Closed for Reno RugbyTank's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Srs question to you and others. Do you think a child of young age(3-4) is actually capable of making a decision as to what gender they are? If not, then isn't that child really mentally the gender they identify with? I don't think the child is just 'wanting' to be the opposite sex, they feel/think they are the opposite sex. I don't think it is a conscious choice.
    I Don't think anyone is capable of making decisions, they do what they can within their environment.
    But the initial environment is what also establishes their sense of conscious.
    So then could be more regarding parents than whats told, either way its not normal.


    Freud's child development
    The Phallic Stage

    Age Range: 3 to 6 Years

    Erogenous Zone: Genitals

    During the phallic stage, the primary focus of the libido is on the genitals. At this age, children also begin to discover the differences between males and females....

    Freud also believed that boys begin to view their fathers as a rival for the mother’s affections. The Oedipus complex describes these feelings of wanting to possess the mother and the desire to replace the father. However, the child also fears that he will be punished by the father for these feelings, a fear Freud termed castration anxiety.

    The term Electra complex has been used to described a similar set of feelings experienced by young girls. Freud, however, believed that girls instead experience penis envy.

    Eventually, the child begins to identify with the same-sex parent as a means of vicariously possessing the other parent. For girls, however, Freud believed that penis envy was never fully resolved and that all women remain somewhat fixated on this stage.
    Last edited by RugbyTank; 02-27-2013 at 09:21 PM.
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  7. #67
    Registered User Lvisaa2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RugbyTank View Post
    I Don't think anyone is capable of making decisions, they do what they can within their environment.
    But the initial environment is what also establishes their sense of conscious.
    So then could be more regarding parents than whats told, either way its not normal.


    Freud's child development
    The Phallic Stage

    Age Range: 3 to 6 Years

    Erogenous Zone: Genitals

    During the phallic stage, the primary focus of the libido is on the genitals. At this age, children also begin to discover the differences between males and females....

    Freud also believed that boys begin to view their fathers as a rival for the mother’s affections. The Oedipus complex describes these feelings of wanting to possess the mother and the desire to replace the father. However, the child also fears that he will be punished by the father for these feelings, a fear Freud termed castration anxiety.

    The term Electra complex has been used to described a similar set of feelings experienced by young girls. Freud, however, believed that girls instead experience penis envy.

    Eventually, the child begins to identify with the same-sex parent as a means of vicariously possessing the other parent. For girls, however, Freud believed that penis envy was never fully resolved and that all women remain somewhat fixated on this stage.
    I am not disagreeing that a child is partially a product of their environment, but the interaction between genetics, environment, and gene expression is way more complex than simply blaming it on the parents. If it was solely environment then all children that grew up with gay parents would be gay, but that doesn't happen.

    Also, Freudian theory has been proven to be mostly crap. A pivotal figure in the development of the field and his philosophical work is interesting, but I wouldn't use him as a reliable source.
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  8. #68
    Registered User FitnessCPA's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by imccarthy View Post
    Future generations will look back on people like you and cringe in the same way that we cringe when thinking about segregation.
    Probably, because future generations are being groomed to be weirdos. Take a look around. Freaks everywhere. This boy was born with a penis. He's a boy. I don't see why it's even discussed. The fact that the word "transgender" even exists is sad. If there's a medical condition causing you to have both, then that's an issue, but that isn't what this is about. This is about boys wanting to be girls. Hey, maybe I want to be a dog! Can I go run around naked in public and say I'm a dog and not get in trouble for it?

    LOL, transgender. Freaks.
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  9. #69
    Registered User FitnessCPA's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Srs question to you and others. Do you think a child of young age(3-4) is actually capable of making a decision as to what gender they are? If not, then isn't that child really mentally the gender they identify with? I don't think the child is just 'wanting' to be the opposite sex, they feel/think they are the opposite sex. I don't think it is a conscious choice.
    Gender is not a decision. I think at 3-4 years old, if your boy is playing with girls, then maybe he's just feminine or going to be gay (seriously). But he's still a boy.
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  10. #70
    Cutting down... deadpool9's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Lites10 View Post
    This is another issue entirely. Unfortunately I don't know if there is a fair way to approach this. Although the same could be said about people that have undergone a gender change. As far as the showering part goes, how would having someone who identifies themselves as a girl, regardless of body type, in with the girls, make anyone feel less comfortable than having a homosexual woman in there? It still comes down to respecting others, and not making an issue of it.
    Well, the homosexual woman has the option of telling people she is homosexual or not. There is a good chance that no one will feel uncomfortable because they do not know. The boy doesn't exactly have an option of removing his penis before showering with the girls. My point is that if he is allowed to use the opposite sex's facilities now, what is going to prevent that in the future? Is it going to be "Ok, you can go use the toilet in the girls locker room, but you have to change you clothes with the guys"?
    I realize most showers are now compartmentalized, so its the same issue with the restroom. But in other areas it is not. I know the gym on our base has an open shower. While a lot of guys probably would not mind a female showering with them, I imagine the same can not be said the other way around. I guess it could be like the showers in Starship Troopers, lol.
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  11. #71
    Registered User Lites10's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by deadpool9 View Post
    Well, the homosexual woman has the option of telling people she is homosexual or not. There is a good chance that no one will feel uncomfortable because they do not know. The boy doesn't exactly have an option of removing his penis before showering with the girls. My point is that if he is allowed to use the opposite sex's facilities now, what is going to prevent that in the future? Is it going to be "Ok, you can go use the toilet in the girls locker room, but you have to change you clothes with the guys"?
    I realize most showers are now compartmentalized, so its the same issue with the restroom. But in other areas it is not. I know the gym on our base has an open shower. While a lot of guys probably would not mind a female showering with them, I imagine the same can not be said the other way around. I guess it could be like the showers in Starship Troopers, lol.
    You are calling him a guy because they have penis, but in every mental sense, they are a woman. Gender vs sex, two completely different things. Maybe it's time we go to non segregated washrooms, and just have separate stalls, get out of this dated way of thinking that we have to be separated. Unfortunately, I think there are SOME people, who would make that not work, by not being able to simply respect others. Probably the same guys that spend more time watching women squat than actually working out.
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  12. #72
    we flawless illiniStrive's Avatar
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    If this was 17th century Europe, I have no doubt FitnessCPA would insist that Galileo was a "weirdo" and a freak.

    The funny thing about this is that he always positions himself as the minority. As if all of America is completely friendly to all genderqueer and otherwise queer individuals, when in fact his stance is quite conventional and constitutes the majority. What's sad is how rampant transphobia is in this country, to the point where many gender-queer youth are homeless for being thrown out of their homes; and violence and murder against trans* individuals (particularly trans women and QPOC) is a real issue. So while it may be hypothetical for him to say "LOL just beat the queer out of him!" it's not hypothetical for thousands of people across the country. It's unfortunate that his bigotry limits his ability to think outside a conventional gender paradigm, considering it's these same sentiments that cause trans* individuals to fear for their lives on a daily basis.
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  13. #73
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    Originally Posted by Lites10 View Post
    You are calling him a guy because they have penis, but in every mental sense, they are a woman. Gender vs sex, two completely different things. Maybe it's time we go to non segregated washrooms, and just have separate stalls, get out of this dated way of thinking that we have to be separated. Unfortunately, I think there are SOME people, who would make that not work, by not being able to simply respect others. Probably the same guys that spend more time watching women squat than actually working out.
    A very small percentage of the population "feel" uncomfortable being in one bathroom or the other and we start talking about we going to non-segregated bathrooms? I don't even... Brb, turning society upside down to make a few people feel comfortable.
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  14. #74
    do u even lift? ven33's Avatar
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    I'm seriously having issues understanding how this is even news.

    THIS JUST IN! Child in US believes he is a cat! Parents want school to provide cat food at lunch time! More at 11.
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    Originally Posted by sawoobley View Post
    A very small percentage of the population "feel" uncomfortable being in one bathroom or the other and we start talking about we going to non-segregated bathrooms? I don't even... Brb, turning society upside down to make a few people feel comfortable.
    Anybody see irony here? No? Just me? Okay.
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  16. #76
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    Originally Posted by ven33 View Post
    I'm seriously having issues understanding how this is even news.

    THIS JUST IN! Child in US believes he is a cat! Parents want school to provide cat food at lunch time! More at 11.
    ^this.


    Just this week i've heard of 3 students in my area at various colleges OD abusing narcotics, yet not a single word on the news. We need to focus on bigger problems.

    As someone who has a sibling significantly younger, I can tell you that the mind of a 6 year old is a strange place that should not be taken seriously at any time.
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  17. #77
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    Originally Posted by Lvisaa2 View Post
    Srs question to you and others. Do you think a child of young age(3-4) is actually capable of making a decision as to what gender they are? If not, then isn't that child really mentally the gender they identify with? I don't think the child is just 'wanting' to be the opposite sex, they feel/think they are the opposite sex. I don't think it is a conscious choice.
    Didn't read entire thread. From what I've read the last few days, science does support it's a mental issue that makes them identify with the opposite sex of what they are even at that young age.

    I don't think this should even be an argument. Until the boy/girl has the appropriate parts, they should be forced to use their genders or a neutral restroom.

    As usual Illini is taking an extreme point of view and claiming if we don't agree with her we are the scum of the earth. Let's protect the one child's feelings with the supposed issue, but ignore the majority in the process. Shocking.
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    Originally Posted by miacanesfan25 View Post
    As usual Illini is taking an extreme point of view and claiming if we don't agree with her we are the scum of the earth. Let's protect the one child's feelings with the supposed issue, but ignore the majority in the process. Shocking.
    I've been called the scum of the earth by Illini so many times that I just look at it as talking dirty now.
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    Originally Posted by miacanesfan25 View Post
    Didn't read entire thread. From what I've read the last few days, science does support it's a mental issue that makes them identify with the opposite sex of what they are even at that young age.

    I don't think this should even be an argument. Until the boy/girl has the appropriate parts, they should be forced to use their genders or a neutral restroom.

    As usual Illini is taking an extreme point of view and claiming if we don't agree with her we are the scum of the earth. Let's protect the one child's feelings with the supposed issue, but ignore the majority in the process. Shocking.
    Serious question, how exactly does a girl with a penis disrupt the normal functioning of a female bathroom? I'm serious. If the little girl acts the same as the other little girls and is in accordance with regular bathroom procedure, how are the other children negatively affected?

    Like I said before, as someone who has used girls/womens restrooms my entire life, I can attest to the fact that I have NO clue what goes on in the pants of the person in the stall next to me. Nor do I care.

    If school administrators and educators were mentally equipped to handle trans* issues nobody else would know either, nor care. Trans women are women and trans men are men regardless of what genitalia they were or were not born with.

    But no, bullying IS totally the best corrective action for this situation
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    Serious question, how exactly does a girl with a penis disrupt the normal functioning of a female bathroom? I'm serious. If the little girl acts the same as the other little girls and is in accordance with regular bathroom procedure, how are the other children negatively affected?

    Like I said before, as someone who has used girls/womens restrooms my entire life, I can attest to the fact that I have NO clue what goes on in the pants of the person in the stall next to me. Nor do I care.

    If school administrators and educators were mentally equipped to handle trans* issues nobody else would know either, nor care. Trans women are women and trans men are men regardless of what genitalia they were or were not born with.

    But no, bullying IS totally the best corrective action for this situation
    I know he is 6, but seriously...what happens if he sexually assaulted a girl in the bathroom? How would you feel then? I'm actually being srs right now too.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    Serious question, how exactly does a girl with a penis disrupt the normal functioning of a female bathroom? I'm serious. If the little girl acts the same as the other little girls and is in accordance with regular bathroom procedure, how are the other children negatively affected?

    Like I said before, as someone who has used girls/womens restrooms my entire life, I can attest to the fact that I have NO clue what goes on in the pants of the person in the stall next to me. Nor do I care.
    Are you joking? What gives you the idea that just because it doesn't bother you that it doesn't bother everyone else? Who's to say by the time the kid is 14 or 15 and puberty kicks he isn't going to realize how great a penis is when it's inside of a vagina and suddenly realize he was wrong? Just because science supports it's a mental issue now doesn't mean that won't change next week. I agree with whoever said this above: The school is being more than reasonable in allowing the kid to use a neutral restroom, the nurses room or whatever, but there's no legit reason he should be able to waltz into the restroom and use it. Do you honestly think a bunch of 6 year olds girls aren't going to be affected having a boy in their bathroom? I can't see how you could possibly take that stance with logical thinking.
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    Originally Posted by ven33 View Post
    I know he is 6, but seriously...what happens if he sexually assaulted a girl in the bathroom? How would you feel then? I'm actually being srs right now too.
    You're really grasping at straws, here. It's more likely that SHE will be assaulted at any point in her life (by family, by classmates, by strangers) than the other way around.

    So you're saying someone with a penis is predisposed to sexually assaulting women? Interesting...

    Originally Posted by miacanesfan25 View Post
    Are you joking? What gives you the idea that just because it doesn't bother you that it doesn't bother everyone else? Who's to say by the time the kid is 14 or 15 and puberty kicks he isn't going to realize how great a penis is when it's inside of a vagina and suddenly realize he was wrong? Just because science supports it's a mental issue now doesn't mean that won't change next week. I agree with whoever said this above: The school is being more than reasonable in allowing the kid to use a neutral restroom, the nurses room or whatever, but there's no legit reason he should be able to waltz into the restroom and use it. Do you honestly think a bunch of 6 year olds girls aren't going to be affected having a boy in their bathroom? I can't see how you could possibly take that stance with logical thinking.
    Realizing "how great a penis is when it's inside of a vagina" is about sexual orientation.... not gender identification. You must be confused. A trans woman can be attracted to other women...

    6 year old girls seeing a boy in the bathroom... yes they would find that odd. 6 year old girls seeing another girl in the bathroom? Not so much.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    You're really grasping at straws, here. It's more likely that SHE will be assaulted at any point in her life (by family, by classmates, by strangers) than the other way around.

    So you're saying someone with a penis is predisposed to sexually assaulting women? Interesting...
    Claiming others are using a strawman is your go to when you're backed into a corner. You used the same argument in the debate last week. It's getting old.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    Serious question, how exactly does a girl with a penis disrupt the normal functioning of a female bathroom? I'm serious. If the little girl acts the same as the other little girls and is in accordance with regular bathroom procedure, how are the other children negatively affected?

    Like I said before, as someone who has used girls/womens restrooms my entire life, I can attest to the fact that I have NO clue what goes on in the pants of the person in the stall next to me. Nor do I care.

    If school administrators and educators were mentally equipped to handle trans* issues nobody else would know either, nor care. Trans women are women and trans men are men regardless of what genitalia they were or were not born with.

    But no, bullying IS totally the best corrective action for this situation
    Regardless if the child "acts" like a girl, if they have the least little bit of "boy" in them, I guarantee the other kids in the bathroom are going to see his willie.

    I imagine they will have to start installing tampon machines in the Men's room now too.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    You're really grasping at straws, here. It's more likely that SHE will be assaulted at any point in her life (by family, by classmates, by strangers) than the other way around.

    So you're saying someone with a penis is predisposed to sexually assaulting women? Interesting...
    I'm just saying it could happen. And you cannot argue that.
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    Originally Posted by miacanesfan25 View Post
    Claiming others are using a strawman is your go to when you're backed into a corner. You used the same argument in the debate last week. It's getting old.
    Now you're confusing idioms: http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/grasping+at+straws

    Originally Posted by ven33 View Post
    I'm just saying it could happen. And you cannot argue that.
    Sure! And a teacher could sexually assault a student!

    Are we not going to allow teachers in classrooms? Because the likelihood of a teacher sexually assaulting a student is astronomically more likely than this little girl assaulting other occupants in the bathroom.

    But is it a possibility? Sure. There you go. I still find it interesting that the existence of a penis immediately goes to the extreme of sexual assault in your mind. Someone mentioned Freud? He would have a field day with that one.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    Are we not going to allow teachers in classrooms? Because the likelihood of a teacher sexually assaulting a student is astronomically more likely than this little girl assaulting other occupants in the bathroom.

    But is it a possibility? Sure. There you go. I still find it interesting that the existence of a penis immediately goes to the extreme of sexual assault in your mind. Someone mentioned Freud? He would have a field day with that one.
    Links to studies showing that the likelihood is lower?
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    Originally Posted by ven33 View Post
    Links to studies showing that the likelihood is lower?
    I have honest to goodness never read a story of a trans woman assaulting another woman in a restroom. If you have some handy, please let me know, I'd be interested to read of it.

    On the other hand, teachers sexually violate students quite often. As are trans women often violently assaulted sexually and otherwise, particularly trans WOC.

    Lemme see what I can dig up since I'm at work and have access to the university research resources.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    6 year old girls seeing another girl in the bathroom? Not so much.
    What makes you think that these 6 year old girls are all accepting and see another 6 year old girl? Most of them are probably confused and another handful uncomfortable and bothered by it.
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    Originally Posted by illiniStrive View Post
    You're really grasping at straws, here. It's more likely that SHE will be assaulted at any point in her life (by family, by classmates, by strangers) than the other way around.

    So you're saying someone with a penis is predisposed to sexually assaulting women? Interesting...



    Realizing "how great a penis is when it's inside of a vagina" is about sexual orientation.... not gender identification. You must be confused. A trans woman can be attracted to other women...

    6 year old girls seeing a boy in the bathroom... yes they would find that odd. 6 year old girls seeing another girl in the bathroom? Not so much.


    Last I checked we're debating about a boy who wants to be a girl. Not an actual girl.
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