Strong Vs Shredded Advanced routine

[mrjew]

Hello! im MrJew, and this is my first time posting here on this forums so im sorry if this post might be missplaced or whatever

now to the point
ive been working out for about 2 months now and im still far away from the point to where my linear gains will decrease to a point where i have to start working out with an advaced routine, however there are a few questions regarding the point where your linear gains and the routines you should use, i want to develop strengh and id like to push pr's in bench, squat and DL althought i want my body to be as aestethic as possible (i.e lots of stupid iso's such as inlcine BP), so my question is really, is there a good routine for getting tons of strengh aswell as doing alot of assesory lifts, i was thinking about going for MADCOW although it isen't the best for an aestethic body, and was basicly wondering if there is an routine you know of that can forfill this goal of mine

Alternative question 1
can you do a modified version of madcow with alot of asserory lifts, or will that ruin the point of the program in the first place

alternative question 2
i bench 80, ohp 50, squat 110, dl 130 which are that stats that usually shows that you've reached the end of your linear gains

alternative question 3
if i start with madcow then change to an aestetic routine will i be able to keep all the strengh from madcow, or will it decline over time

alternative question 4
is this expression true: natty, shredded, strong, pick two (and how true is it)

sorry for the biggest BS post of 2013 but i would really apprechiate help
ps current routine: SL with tons of assesory lifts

[JSNeves]

Just keeping pounding away with a balanced beginner program, and a high calorie diet, until progress starts to stall. Getting stronger with the basics and gaining bodyweight is going to add muscle all over your body. Don't even worry about getting "shredded" until you have added enough muscle mass to show off.

Then you can jump on an upper/lower split which will allow a bit more exercise variety and also allow you to focus a good deal on your strength in the big 3.

Don't even worry about getting "shredded" until you have added enough muscle mass to show off.

[mrjew]

Then you can jump on an upper/lower split which will allow a bit more exercise variety and also allow you to focus a good deal on your strength in the big 3.

please extend this part (i.e routines which does this), and if you could/know please answer all the questions asked

[JSNeves]

Alternative question 1
can you do a modified version of madcow with alot of asserory lifts, or will that ruin the point of the program in the first place

alternative question 2
i bench 80, ohp 50, squat 110, dl 130 which are that stats that usually shows that you've reached the end of your linear gains

alternative question 3
if i start with madcow then change to an aestetic routine will i be able to keep all the strengh from madcow, or will it decline over time

alternative question 4
is this expression true: natty, shredded, strong, pick two (and how true is it)

#1- adding a bunch of crap will ruin the program and is not necassary at your level

#2- If you keeping gaining bodyweight you should be able to continue linear progression (are those Kg?)

#3- You can do a program with more variety and continue gaining strength

#4- Depends how good you are at eating correctly, you can be big-lean-strong-natural, just depends on how consistant and smart you are with your diet and training.

please extend this part (i.e routines which does this), and if you could/know please answer all the questions asked

Lyle Mcdonalds generic bulking routine, Jim wendlers 531, and PHAT training come to mind (the second 2 are not ideal for you at your level)

[JBisGod]

i bench 80, ohp 50, squat 110, dl 130 which are that stats that usually shows that you've reached the end of your linear gains

With good nutrition, a solid beginner program should be able to get your bench 200lbs+ and your squat 300+ in my opinion

[mrjew]

not ideal for you at your level

yeah i know
so once i hit the end of linear gains i should swhich to madcow etc, go for big gains, then switch to something like jim wendlers 531?
and yeah its in KG

thanks for the help

[RockCrab]

and if you could/know please answer all the questions asked

#1- adding a bunch of crap will ruin the program and is not necassary at your level

#2- If you keeping gaining bodyweight you should be able to continue linear progression (are those Kg?)

#3- You can do a program with more variety and continue gaining strength

#4- Depends how good you are at eating correctly, you can be big-lean-strong-natural, just depends on how consistant and smart you are with your diet and training.

Repped for having the patience of Job.

Edit: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JSNeves again.

[mrjew]

With good nutrition, a solid beginner program should be able to get your bench 200lbs+ and your squat 300+ in my opinion

thanks ill keep it in mind, just want to know about when i should expect a loss of weekly gain

[mrjew]

Repped for having the patience of Job.

Edit: You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JSNeves again.

what is this "reputation" you are talking about? new to this forum so i dont have a clue

[musikguy72]

thanks ill keep it in mind, just want to know about when i should expect a loss of weekly gain

Weekly gain? Could be a while. Right now you should be enjoying adding pounds to the bar every time you work out. At some point your recovery will slow down and then you will be adding weight to the bar weekly instead of daily. Then recover slows some more and your gains will go to bi monthly and monthly.

It's not really productive to know exactly when these will happen. Just keep training with the fastest progression you can recover from and when that slows, you find something wilt a more forgiving progression. And who knows when that will be? Some people still have fast recovery because they never pushed themselves or they took 4 months off or they didn't eat enough to grow so 3 years later they still gain faster than weekly.
So you can see, not only is it hard to predict these things, it's not really necessary to do so either.

[tzalma1]

yes dont worry about how long it will last just hope that it lasts as long as possible. the longer you can make those linear gains the faster you will see the results you are looking for.

[mrjew]

Weekly gain? Could be a while. Right now you should be enjoying adding pounds to the bar every time you work out. At some point your recovery will slow down and then you will be adding weight to the bar weekly instead of daily. Then recover slows some more and your gains will go to bi monthly and monthly.

It's not really productive to know exactly when these will happen. Just keep training with the fastest progression you can recover from and when that slows, you find something wilt a more forgiving progression. And who knows when that will be? Some people still have fast recovery because they never pushed themselves or they took 4 months off or they didn't eat enough to grow so 3 years later they still gain faster than weekly.
So you can see, not only is it hard to predict these things, it's not really necessary to do so either.

so basicly when my gains stop, i should try out different routines, if i still dont get gains i need to adjust my diet? currently im pushing myself pretty hard, so i dont think a lack of commitment will evolve into lacking gains

[tzalma1]

so basicly when my gains stop, i should try out different routines, if i still dont get gains i need to adjust my diet? currently im pushing myself pretty hard, so i dont think a lack of commitment will evolve into lacking gains

adjust your diet before routines...odds are most of the time if you start to stall you are not getting in enough calories

[musikguy72]

so basicly when my gains stop, i should try out different routines, if i still dont get gains i need to adjust my diet? currently im pushing myself pretty hard, so i dont think a lack of commitment will evolve into lacking gains

Before changing routines, you would want to swap out some lifts. Change number of sets, reps. Gains are gains and they are increasingly harder and harder to comeby so sooner or later you will realize that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Try to get as much out of a routine as you can.
but yes, after swapping out comparable lifts, changing rep ranges, sets, mode progression...eventually that routine will be used up. Then you find another one.

Commitment is awesome. Try not to ever lose that. but saying you are pushing yourself pretty hard is subjective. What if you need to ramp up to a max over the course of 2 weeks? Are you not going to do it because you aren't pushing yourself the hardest? There are many progression schemes. Try to become familiar with as many as you can during your time traininig.

[mrjew]

adjust your diet before routines...odds are most of the time if you start to stall you are not getting in enough calories

general question about diet
how imprant are berries, nuts and that kind of **** to the diet, is it just to be healthier or does it increase gains aswell?
or is it just raw cal + raw protein = gain?

[musikguy72]

general question about diet
how imprant are berries, nuts and that kind of **** to the diet, is it just to be healthier or does it increase gains aswell?
or is it just raw cal + raw protein = gain?

Some helpful reading: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981

[mrjew]

Before changing routines, you would want to swap out some lifts. Change number of sets, reps. Gains are gains and they are increasingly harder and harder to comeby so sooner or later you will realize that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Try to get as much out of a routine as you can.
but yes, after swapping out comparable lifts, changing rep ranges, sets, mode progression...eventually that routine will be used up. Then you find another one.

Commitment is awesome. Try not to ever lose that. but saying you are pushing yourself pretty hard is subjective. What if you need to ramp up to a max over the course of 2 weeks? Are you not going to do it because you aren't pushing yourself the hardest? There are many progression schemes. Try to become familiar with as many as you can during your time traininig.

currently in not really need ramp sets(over weeks), but i know the princip and know that math so my opinion (even thought i havent done any) is that i dont think it will be all 2 difficult

[tzalma1]

Everything You Need to Know

[mrjew]

Some helpful reading

Everything You Need to Know

thanks ill read it

cant post links

[tzalma1]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to musikguy72 again.

You're clearly faster!!

[mrjew]

Everything You Need to Know

hey again, another stupid (beuginner question)
i've seen those guidelines before and im currently trying to follow them although i only count the ammount of protein i take in (for me its around 150-180 daily)
although i dont count cal, just because i think it will be to hard for me, any tips on making it easier to count cals, what do you use? sience i dont always eat self cooked food where i can check nurtition value/weight the food
currenly im just looking at my belly in the morning, if 6 pack starts to show, i eat like ****, and if it starts to dissapear completly i cut down on some cal,
is this a good way to go minicuts/bulks or what do you recomend, should i try to start calculating my cal intake?

[JBisGod]

hey again, another stupid (beuginner question)
i've seen those guidelines before and im currently trying to follow them although i only count the ammount of protein i take in (for me its around 150-180 daily)
although i dont count cal, just because i think it will be to hard for me, any tips on making it easier to count cals, what do you use? sience i dont always eat self cooked food where i can check nurtition value/weight the food
currenly im just looking at my belly in the morning, if 6 pack starts to show, i eat like ****, and if it starts to dissapear completly i cut down on some cal,
is this a good way to go minicuts/bulks or what do you recomend, should i try to start calculating my cal intake?

If you have a smartphone, there are tons of calorie counting apps. I use myfitnesspal on the iphone, and on their website. Huge database of foods. Its much easier to gauge your food intake objectively when you can put a number on it.

[FromSquare1]

alternative question 4
is this expression true: natty, shredded, strong, pick two (and how true is it)

I know a weightlifter (olympic style) who is natural at <10%bodyfat. He's 85kg class, goes up to 90 (still very cut) while training. He's just been lifting a long time. He deadlifts over 240kgs and clean and jerks 155, snatches 122. Steroids are just the lazy mans way to get there. Of course you'll never get an olympic gold without drugs, but you can definitely get a long way, with time and dedication.

Edit he's 21 years old. So by long time I mean like 5 years.

[mrjew]

If you have a smartphone, there are tons of calorie counting apps. I use myfitnesspal on the iphone, and on their website. Huge database of foods. Its much easier to gauge your food intake objectively when you can put a number on it.

is there even a point trying to calculate Cal intake sience the same food may differ by up to 20% in cal value depending on brand etc aswell as estimating the food may give you a value that differes alot because its easy to estimate the ammout of food wrong.
the difference between a bulk and a cut may be about 10% cal so is there even a point trying to calculate Cal or is it better to get one of those thingies that calc your bodyfat and see if you need to increase your cal intake and do mini cuts and minibulks trying to maintain about the same fat value?

[JSNeves]

is there even a point trying to calculate Cal intake sience the same food may differ by up to 20% in cal value depending on brand etc aswell as estimating the food may give you a value that differes alot because its easy to estimate the ammout of food wrong.
the difference between a bulk and a cut may be about 10% cal so is there even a point trying to calculate Cal or is it better to get one of those thingies that calc your bodyfat and see if you need to increase your cal intake and do mini cuts and minibulks trying to maintain about the same fat value?

If you cut the cals every time you add a little body fat and then add cals every time you get lean your likely going to always stay around the same weight. Without being very strict with your diet and accounting for every calorie you eat gaining a significant amount of muscle mass while staying 6-pack lean is not a likely situation (and even if you are perfect on your diet this is a slow process)

just eat enough to add 1kg to your body weight every 2-3 weeks, and stick to this until you have added significant body weight and then you can do a dedicated cut for awhile if you feel its necassary

[mrjew]

If you cut the cals every time you add a little body fat and then add cals every time you get lean your likely going to always stay around the same weight. Without being very strict with your diet and accounting for every calorie you eat gaining a significant amount of muscle mass while staying 6-pack lean is not a likely situation (and even if you are perfect on your diet this is a slow process)

just eat enough to add 1kg to your body weight every 2-3 weeks, and stick to this until you have added significant body weight and then you can do a dedicated cut for awhile if you feel its necassary

ahh okey, and is it like the longer bulk the better? i.e primary goal for me atm is to get into shape for the summer, so should i just bulk untill about 2-3 weeks before you can hit the beach, then go for a hard cut?

[JBisGod]

is there even a point trying to calculate Cal intake sience the same food may differ by up to 20% in cal value depending on brand etc aswell as estimating the food may give you a value that differes alot because its easy to estimate the ammout of food wrong.
the difference between a bulk and a cut may be about 10% cal so is there even a point trying to calculate Cal or is it better to get one of those thingies that calc your bodyfat and see if you need to increase your cal intake and do mini cuts and minibulks trying to maintain about the same fat value?

The food database includes many brands, and the app has a barcode scanner that actually works (was very surprised when I tried it). The nutritional info in the database has matched up with the package nutrition info every time so far. It also has menu items from most chain restaurants.

The calorie calculators for your maintenance caloric intake are estimators. There is no way to precisely calculate how many calories YOU burn in a day, because you're unique and every day is different. Having a reference point to start from is extremely helpful however. If you calculate that your maintenance calories is at, say 2600 calories, you can try to bulk at 2900. After a couple weeks you should be able to tell whether you are gaining/losing/staying the same weight. At this point you can make the appropriate adjustments to your diet, and repeat the process until you figure out how your body reacts to different caloric intakes.

Obviously if you record every bit of food you eat and it says you ate 2843 calories, you probably didn't eat EXACTLY 2843 calories, even if you weighted every g of food. It could be off by a 100, maybe 200 calories, maybe more if your portion size estimates are off. Without trying to keep track, you will likely be off your diet goals by a lot more.

[Jasonk282]

thanks ill keep it in mind, just want to know about when i should expect a loss of weekly gain

Exactly 8 weeks after your 2nd deload.

[mrjew]

another beginner question, currently im doing SL - squat 3 times a week 5x5
should i change it to
squat day 1 5x5
squat day 2 5x5 (-10-15% of squat day 1)
squat day 3 1x5?

[mrjew]

The food database includes many brands, and the app has a barcode scanner that actually works (was very surprised when I tried it). The nutritional info in the database has matched up with the package nutrition info every time so far. It also has menu items from most chain restaurants.

The calorie calculators for your maintenance caloric intake are estimators. There is no way to precisely calculate how many calories YOU burn in a day, because you're unique and every day is different. Having a reference point to start from is extremely helpful however. If you calculate that your maintenance calories is at, say 2600 calories, you can try to bulk at 2900. After a couple weeks you should be able to tell whether you are gaining/losing/staying the same weight. At this point you can make the appropriate adjustments to your diet, and repeat the process until you figure out how your body reacts to different caloric intakes.

Obviously if you record every bit of food you eat and it says you ate 2843 calories, you probably didn't eat EXACTLY 2843 calories, even if you weighted every g of food. It could be off by a 100, maybe 200 calories, maybe more if your portion size estimates are off. Without trying to keep track, you will likely be off your diet goals by a lot more.

gonna give counting cal a try, if it doesent work i havent really lost anything, thanks for the help