First cut (All Pro's?) (help?)

[Worcestershire]

After bulking for the past seven months, I'm starting my first cut next week. I believe I'm still considered a beginner (I'm not squatting body weight for reps and still haven't done my first pullup) so I'm thinking about using All Pro's beginner's routine (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...4195843&page=1 if you're not familiar with it).

Pros
Regimented Progressive Overload
Focuses on compound lifts
Well-known and approved (although I don't think I've seen any female's journal who has run it though)
Not overly complicated
There is some mild periodization inherent in the program, so I won't be PRing squats every day (like in SS, which I think would be impossible on a deficit)

Cons
NO DEADLIFTS (which are one of my favorite lifts)...there are SLDLs, but I've never done them before and I'm pretty sure they're just not the same.
NO PULLUPS. One of my goals is to be able to do 1+ pullups unassisted, and I know the only way to get there is practice. Unfortunately it's not included in the routine.
NO DIPS. (See "NO PULLUPS")
Curls (?) I've never really done bicep curls before, but I suppose they're not bad. I would just rather be doing a compound movement (like pullups!)

I'm thinking about using progressing from 6 to 10 reps rather than 8 to 12 because I do want to focus on strength as well (and All Pro himself mentioned that it's fine to alter the rep ranges).

However, as a relative newbie I don't want to throw in deadlifts and pullups where they shouldn't be and then complain about how the program isn't working.

Does anyone have any advice? Should I just find another routine, or can anyone with more experience somehow incorporate pullups and the like into the program without killing the premise behind AllPros?

[sonti]

Westside for Skinny Bastards!

[amiaow]

I did Allpro's for a while, it was alright but I got bored quickly and went back to split workouts. The SLDLs are awesome for your hammies & glutes, they don't really use your quads. You could also do single leg DB deadlifts, that is my favourite variation for the back of the legs.

Allpro said that the curls were in there because people would do them regardless, but IMO they are not necessary!

Have you read NROLW? I find that has a bit more variety with the A/B workout rotation.

[Jemima92]

Why do a program which doesn't include exercises you enjoy? Working out is supposed to be fun. Can you substitute an exercise in the program for the ones you like? Programs are not gospel, you are allowed to change them to suit your own preferences and schedule. If you want to stick to the program 100% then go ahead but then you wouldn't enjoy it as much compared to if you included dead lifts, pull ups and dips. I love dead lifting too and I don't think I'd ever exclude them from my program.

Also if you've been bulking for at least seven months, I'd daresay you'd have enough knowledge to put together your own programs?? I have a look at some of the programs on this website and tweak them or tweak my current sessions to include bits from new programs I come across. I made up a new leg day program a few weeks ago and afterwards I found a leg session on bb.com by Jen Jewell which was exactly the same. Trust your own knowledge

One last thing, SLDL are SUCH a good exercise! one of my faves

[Worcestershire]

Would subbing neutral grip pullups for curls make sense, or would it be too much back involvement? If so, I could sub the pull ups for the rows instead to avoid burning out my back.

I may also throw in a a deadlift instead of the SLDL once a week, as I do like the lift but I know it would be unwise to deadlift and squat three days a week. I guess the SLDLs are to make sure the back of the legs are getting worked without frying the CNS with too many lifts. I don't know if it would make more sense to deadlift on the heavy, medium, or light day. Anyone have an inkling?

Westside for Skinny Bastards!

I checked it out, and it looks interesting.

There are just so many options for exercise choices, and I don't know how I feel about having only one leg day a week (and unfortunately I don't have a sled to drag around, haha), so it may not be the program for me, at least right now. I may come back to it the future, though, so thanks!

I did Allpro's for a while, it was alright but I got bored quickly and went back to split workouts. The SLDLs are awesome for your hammies & glutes, they don't really use your quads. You could also do single leg DB deadlifts, that is my favourite variation for the back of the legs.

Allpro said that the curls were in there because people would do them regardless, but IMO they are not necessary!

Have you read NROLW? I find that has a bit more variety with the A/B workout rotation.

Good to know. I haven't looked at NROL before, but I've heard good things...do you think it's worth checking out, and have you run it before?

Why do a program which doesn't include exercises you enjoy? Working out is supposed to be fun. Can you substitute an exercise in the program for the ones you like? Programs are not gospel, you are allowed to change them to suit your own preferences and schedule. If you want to stick to the program 100% then go ahead but then you wouldn't enjoy it as much compared to if you included dead lifts, pull ups and dips. I love dead lifting too and I don't think I'd ever exclude them from my program.

Also if you've been bulking for at least seven months, I'd daresay you'd have enough knowledge to put together your own programs?? I have a look at some of the programs on this website and tweak them or tweak my current sessions to include bits from new programs I come across. I made up a new leg day program a few weeks ago and afterwards I found a leg session on bb.com by Jen Jewell which was exactly the same. Trust your own knowledge

One last thing, SLDL are SUCH a good exercise! one of my faves

I always read horror stories about people changing their programs, and I feel like whenever someone with not that much experience asks about altering a preexisting workout the answer is always a resounding NO. Nobody's posted (in this thread at least) with anything like that though, so I may just go for it.

Thanks! And I hope I like the SLDs as much as you do

[amiaow]

Hey, Yeah I run NROL if I don't have 4 days free do to a split program, I really like it- very effective workouts. And it has DLs!

[texaschik]

Why do a program which doesn't include exercises you enjoy? Working out is supposed to be fun. Can you substitute an exercise in the program for the ones you like? Programs are not gospel, you are allowed to change them to suit your own preferences and schedule. If you want to stick to the program 100% then go ahead but then you wouldn't enjoy it as much compared to if you included dead lifts, pull ups and dips. I love dead lifting too and I don't think I'd ever exclude them from my program.

Also if you've been bulking for at least seven months, I'd daresay you'd have enough knowledge to put together your own programs?? I have a look at some of the programs on this website and tweak them or tweak my current sessions to include bits from new programs I come across. I made up a new leg day program a few weeks ago and afterwards I found a leg session on bb.com by Jen Jewell which was exactly the same. Trust your own knowledge

One last thing, SLDL are SUCH a good exercise! one of my faves

Agreed!

I would substitute in dead lifts, dips and pullups, too. I haven't done Allpro's but I have done Madcow and I just substituted exercises I liked in when I wanted to or when I felt like I needed to work a certain muscle group. I love SLDL's and hate regular dead lifts so usually substituted in sumo dead lifts as Madcow has deadlifts. If you haven't checked out Madcow you might like it actually but not sure how it would work for cutting as the program is pretty intense and exhausting. If I remember correctly his program also has dips. I added pull-ups on days I got tired of doing rows b/c I have a similar goal to yours but then I screwed up my shoulder on incline press and had to stop.

Good luck on your cut! I am considering starting a cut soon, too.

[rdferguson]

Would subbing neutral grip pullups for curls make sense, or would it be too much back involvement? If so, I could sub the pull ups for the rows instead to avoid burning out my back.

There's no such thing as too much back involvement.

I may also throw in a a deadlift instead of the SLDL once a week, as I do like the lift but I know it would be unwise to deadlift and squat three days a week. I guess the SLDLs are to make sure the back of the legs are getting worked without frying the CNS with too many lifts. I don't know if it would make more sense to deadlift on the heavy, medium, or light day. Anyone have an inkling?

Given the rep range, if you can maintain technique on conventional deadlifts, I don't think it would be a problem at all to sub them in on heavy day.

I always read horror stories about people changing their programs, and I feel like whenever someone with not that much experience asks about altering a preexisting workout the answer is always a resounding NO. Nobody's posted (in this thread at least) with anything like that though, so I may just go for it.

Thanks! And I hope I like the SLDs as much as you do

These horror stories are the result of people being profoundly stupid. "O HAI, I want to do Starting Strength, but I'm going to superset squats with lunges, bench press with push ups, deadlifts with leg curls, and then do 5x10 barbell curls in a drop set with reverse DB curls and do a circuit of weighted sit ups and woodchops and box jumps and dips and then I'll do 30min HIIT. Does this sound good?"

On the flip side, adjusting something like All Pro's Simple Beginner's Routine to include regular deadlifts, pull ups and dips can all be done in a profoundly non-stupid way. Such as this:

- Squats
- Bench Press (hvy) or Dips (lite)
- Pull Ups
- OHP
- Rows (NB I've moved rows down here because it's easier to do rows after pull ups than it is to do pull ups after rows)
- DL (hvy) or SLDL (med/lite)
- Calf Raise

Of course, once you do this, it isn't officially All Pro's Simple Beginner's Routine anymore, and it's getting a bit less simple, but that doesn't mean it's become less effective.

[cmg1976]

"O HAI, I want to do Starting Strength, but I'm going to superset squats with lunges, bench press with push ups, deadlifts with leg curls, and then do 5x10 barbell curls in a drop set with reverse DB curls and do a circuit of weighted sit ups and woodchops and box jumps and dips and then I'll do 30min HIIT. Does this sound good?"

LOL!

I really like the modified plan you just wrote out.

[Worcestershire]

Agreed!

I would substitute in dead lifts, dips and pullups, too. I haven't done Allpro's but I have done Madcow and I just substituted exercises I liked in when I wanted to or when I felt like I needed to work a certain muscle group. I love SLDL's and hate regular dead lifts so usually substituted in sumo dead lifts as Madcow has deadlifts. If you haven't checked out Madcow you might like it actually but not sure how it would work for cutting as the program is pretty intense and exhausting. If I remember correctly his program also has dips. I added pull-ups on days I got tired of doing rows b/c I have a similar goal to yours but then I screwed up my shoulder on incline press and had to stop.

Good luck on your cut! I am considering starting a cut soon, too.

Thanks. I've heard of madcows, but I if I try it I think I'll hold off until I try bulking again. Apparently SLDLs are very popular...who would have known? Anyway, best of luck to you too!

There's no such thing as too much back involvement.

Given the rep range, if you can maintain technique on conventional deadlifts, I don't think it would be a problem at all to sub them in on heavy day.

These horror stories are the result of people being profoundly stupid. "O HAI, I want to do Starting Strength, but I'm going to superset squats with lunges, bench press with push ups, deadlifts with leg curls, and then do 5x10 barbell curls in a drop set with reverse DB curls and do a circuit of weighted sit ups and woodchops and box jumps and dips and then I'll do 30min HIIT. Does this sound good?"

On the flip side, adjusting something like All Pro's Simple Beginner's Routine to include regular deadlifts, pull ups and dips can all be done in a profoundly non-stupid way. Such as this:

- Squats
- Bench Press (hvy) or Dips (lite)
- Pull Ups
- OHP
- Rows (NB I've moved rows down here because it's easier to do rows after pull ups than it is to do pull ups after rows)
- DL (hvy) or SLDL (med/lite)
- Calf Raise

Of course, once you do this, it isn't officially All Pro's Simple Beginner's Routine anymore, and it's getting a bit less simple, but that doesn't mean it's become less effective.

Ahaha, that was beautiful. I'll definitely be using this! Thanks for checking it over for me, it looks great. I've been reading through the All Pro's thread, and he actually suggests deadlifting (if one really really wants to) on the medium lift day (I guess so I'm not trying to increase my squat and deadlift on the same day), so I may go with that. I didn't realize that bench and dips overlap enough to sub, but now that I think about it they really do hit similar muscles.

(You must spread some reputation around, blah blah blah).

LOL!

I really like the modified plan you just wrote out.

D'ya think he'd mind if I threw in some single-legged squats on the bosu ball? I heard they're great for looking really toned...

[CathyVee]

You might want to take a look at the novice 5x5 in the workout section. It includes deadlifts, you can substitute chin ups for biceps curls and when you are cutting you can switch to 3x5 for the main lifts and 2x8 for the assistance exercises. I have also done All Pro's and I really like the bit of variety I get with this program.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=148036063

[rdferguson]

Ahaha, that was beautiful. I'll definitely be using this! Thanks for checking it over for me, it looks great. I've been reading through the All Pro's thread, and he actually suggests deadlifting (if one really really wants to) on the medium lift day (I guess so I'm not trying to increase my squat and deadlift on the same day), so I may go with that. I didn't realize that bench and dips overlap enough to sub, but now that I think about it they really do hit similar muscles.

(You must spread some reputation around, blah blah blah).

Deadlifts on Medium day to seperate them from heavy squats probably is a good idea. Go with that.

D'ya think he'd mind if I threw in some single-legged squats on the bosu ball? I heard they're great for looking really toned...

=_=