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  1. #1
    Registered User Jayhawk's Avatar
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    Do you stretch your clients?

    Do you stretch your clients? By that, I mean do you move their limbs for them to the end range of motion? I saw a trainer do it on TV and thought it went outside of the scope of practice of a trainer into the realm of physical therapy.

    Jason
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  2. #2
    community gym PT KyleAaron's Avatar
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    Stretching is no more physical therapy than are barbells.

    Which is to say, it is in fact physical therapy - it's a practice which improves health and function - but it is not recognised as such by physical therapists generally.

    If a muscle is weak, strengthen it. If a muscle is tight, stretch it. You don't need a five year degree and 500 hours of clinical practice to do that.
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  3. #3
    Registered User hdfitnessau's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    Stretching is no more physical therapy than are barbells.

    Which is to say, it is in fact physical therapy - it's a practice which improves health and function - but it is not recognised as such by physical therapists generally.

    If a muscle is weak, strengthen it. If a muscle is tight, stretch it. You don't need a five year degree and 500 hours of clinical practice to do that.
    Agreed. Range of motion is extremely important and if I have a client not doing it properly I will always assist til they know where to move to by themselves.
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  4. #4
    Registered User m3ndo's Avatar
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    outside the scope of practice? you're a PERSONAL trainer. the bond you form with your clients goes beyond yelling at them to "keep going. just 2 more." You take their whole health into consideration. I know many trainers who are certified in massage as well. Touching your clients is an integral part of the business
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  5. #5
    Omega Level RyouBakua's Avatar
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    i prefer to stretch people if they havent already done so



    each client is different and some will stretch/warm up on their own

    but i dont see it happening often
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  6. #6
    Registered User bigballin6161's Avatar
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    I used to but dont anymore. I usually see clients 3x/week. stretching them 3x/week aint gonna do much it has to be done almost every day and they wont do it on their own. If they will do it on their own give them a program to do at home so that you can focus on the improtant stuff like weight training.
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  7. #7
    Registered User PerFit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    i prefer to stretch people if they havent already done so



    each client is different and some will stretch/warm up on their own

    but i dont see it happening often
    how a client SHOULD stretch and how they actually stretch are two different things.
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  8. #8
    Omega Level RyouBakua's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by PerFit View Post
    how a client SHOULD stretch and how they actually stretch are two different things.
    thats true.

    but any stretching > no stretching
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  9. #9
    Registered User JohnSmeton's Avatar
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    I do warmups before to raise body temperature

    after yes I stretch soimetimes
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  10. #10
    Registered User PerFit's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RyouBakua View Post
    thats true.

    but any stretching > no stretching
    well yes in most cases but ive seen some rather nasty 'stretching'


    Violent bouncing stretches on a cold body is a one way ticket to a tear.
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  11. #11
    community gym PT KyleAaron's Avatar
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    If it's ineffective, it's a waste of time, and thus worse than doing nothing. It's time they could be spending doing something effective.
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  12. #12
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    One of the perks of being a trainer

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  13. #13
    Registered User SFT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    If it's ineffective, it's a waste of time, and thus worse than doing nothing. It's time they could be spending doing something effective.
    Is it really ineffective and a waste of time for everyone? A shortened/tight muscle can restrict active ROM of the opposite action of that particular muscle. For example, tight plantarflexors restrict dorsiflexion, which is important to have in certain squat variations.

    I tend to do very little stretching with women because most have plenty of ROM. However, middle-aged older men, adolescent boys, and other special cases including joint replacements, those with contractures, and other populations might be able to use stretching effectively. If active ROM is lacking, it would make sense to me that you either have a weak agonist, an overactive antagnoist, or other issues beyond the scope of what I deal with. By addressing #2 with stretching, you can transiently (or maybe longer term?) decrease the force the muscle is exerting to allow the agonist to move through a greater ROM.

    I don't have all the answers, but I think stretching has it's place. If there is time that the client would otherwise be idle, I would rather have them stretching if they have restricted ROM.
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  14. #14
    O_o \m/ Keltron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    Is it really ineffective and a waste of time for everyone? A shortened/tight muscle can restrict active ROM of the opposite action of that particular muscle. For example, tight plantarflexors restrict dorsiflexion, which is important to have in certain squat variations.

    I tend to do very little stretching with women because most have plenty of ROM. However, middle-aged older men, adolescent boys, and other special cases including joint replacements, those with contractures, and other populations might be able to use stretching effectively. If active ROM is lacking, it would make sense to me that you either have a weak agonist, an overactive antagnoist, or other issues beyond the scope of what I deal with. By addressing #2 with stretching, you can transiently (or maybe longer term?) decrease the force the muscle is exerting to allow the agonist to move through a greater ROM.

    I don't have all the answers, but I think stretching has it's place. If there is time that the client would otherwise be idle, I would rather have them stretching if they have restricted ROM.
    I dont think he meant stretching in general was a waste of time. I think he was referring to clients randomly stretching on their own w/no rhyme or reason. For example, someone w/a forward pelvic tilt stretching their hamstrings before deadlift day. I think that would be ineffective.
    I do snatch pulls in the gym so I can do snatch pulls in the bars. And I ALWAYS use a hook grip.


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  15. #15
    Registered User SFT's Avatar
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    If that is what was meant, then I agree that stretching for the sake of stretching is not always effective. I even active movement to gain ROM such as hurdle drills when possible because you can also increase the body temperature at the same time. That being said, sometimes static stretching seems to work better for shutting down an overactive muscle.

    My response was particularly to the notion that static stretching should be avoided at all costs, by everyone, always. I see quite a few people with this mentality. In 10 years, static stretching will be the next big thing again. We can't make up our damn minds in this field.
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  16. #16
    Registered User theoriginal's Avatar
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    Five minutes warmup with cardio for most clients; for a few who need it, I incorporate foam rolling. In the environment I work in, no one uses things anything like PNF stretching. In most gym environments, I feel like many of those stretches would make clients pretty uncomfortable, especially something like a hamstring stretch.
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  17. #17
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    Is it really ineffective and a waste of time for everyone? A shortened/tight muscle can restrict active ROM of the opposite action of that particular muscle. For example, tight plantarflexors restrict dorsiflexion, which is important to have in certain squat variations.

    I tend to do very little stretching with women because most have plenty of ROM. However, middle-aged older men, adolescent boys, and other special cases including joint replacements, those with contractures, and other populations might be able to use stretching effectively. If active ROM is lacking, it would make sense to me that you either have a weak agonist, an overactive antagnoist, or other issues beyond the scope of what I deal with. By addressing #2 with stretching, you can transiently (or maybe longer term?) decrease the force the muscle is exerting to allow the agonist to move through a greater ROM.

    I don't have all the answers, but I think stretching has it's place. If there is time that the client would otherwise be idle, I would rather have them stretching if they have restricted ROM.
    Acute effects of static and dynamic stretching on hamstring eccentric isokinetic strength and unilateral hamstring to quadriceps strength ratios.


    [The results suggest that dynamic and static stretching has no influence on eccentric strength profile and unilateral H/Q strength ratios and hence both forms of stretching do not reduce these two primary risk factors for muscle injury.

    or how bout

    Acute effects of static stretching on peak torque and the hamstrings-to-quadriceps conventional and functional ratios.

    Similarly, Yeung et al. (2009) reported that competitive sprinters with a pre-season H:Q ratio lower than 0.60 at the velocity of 180°/s had their risk of hamstring injury increased by 17 times. As a result, decreased hamstring strength could potentially lower the H:Q ratio (Costa et al., 2009a), and consequently increase the perceived risk of hamstring- and knee-related injury as indicated by the H:Q ratio. As stretching has been recommended for prevention and rehabilitation of hamstring strains (Glick, 1980; Heiser et al., 1984; Agre, 1985; Worrell, 1994; Kujala et al., 1997; Clanton & Coupe, 1998; Hartig & Henderson, 1999; Drezner, 2003; Croisier, 2004; Malliaropoulos et al., 2004; Sherry & Best, 2004; Verrall et al., 2005), and because acute stretching may decrease hamstring concentric and eccentric strength (Brandenburg, 2006; Ogura et al., 2007; Herda et al., 2008; McHugh & Nesse, 2008; Costa et al., 2009b; Sekir et al., 2010), it is possible that stretching may also reduce the H:Q ratio and increase the perceived risk of injury as assessed by the H:Q ratio.
    In summary, the current findings were generally consistent with previous studies (Nelson et al., 2001; Evetovich et al., 2003; Cramer et al., 2004, 2005; Marek et al., 2005; Brandenburg, 2006; Herda et al., 2008; Costa et al., 2009a, b; Sekir et al., 2010) and revealed that static stretching caused acute decreases in muscle strength. As a result, H:Q ratios also decreased after stretching. Conventional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings stretching, whereas functional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings and quadriceps stretching and quadriceps-only stretching. These findings suggested that static stretching may adversely affect the conventional as well as the functional H:Q ratio.




    static stretching prior to weight training to me appears counterproductive, if stretching twice a day not around strength training would suffice
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    Originally Posted by Jayhawk View Post
    Do you stretch your clients? By that, I mean do you move their limbs for them to the end range of motion? I saw a trainer do it on TV and thought it went outside of the scope of practice of a trainer into the realm of physical therapy.

    Jason
    it is a gray area, it is out of the scope of practice to recommend stretching protocols, would u be able to stretch a client who is 40 and minimal past medical history yes, but what about potentially someone who is status post fracture with a contracture or say 60 or 70 year old lady with osteoporosis or even back pain with sciatic symptoms, i would not all of these could be an issue with stretching
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  19. #19
    Registered User DPT31's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by braskibra View Post
    Acute effects of static and dynamic stretching on hamstring eccentric isokinetic strength and unilateral hamstring to quadriceps strength ratios.


    [The results suggest that dynamic and static stretching has no influence on eccentric strength profile and unilateral H/Q strength ratios and hence both forms of stretching do not reduce these two primary risk factors for muscle injury.

    or how bout

    Acute effects of static stretching on peak torque and the hamstrings-to-quadriceps conventional and functional ratios.

    Similarly, Yeung et al. (2009) reported that competitive sprinters with a pre-season H:Q ratio lower than 0.60 at the velocity of 180°/s had their risk of hamstring injury increased by 17 times. As a result, decreased hamstring strength could potentially lower the H:Q ratio (Costa et al., 2009a), and consequently increase the perceived risk of hamstring- and knee-related injury as indicated by the H:Q ratio. As stretching has been recommended for prevention and rehabilitation of hamstring strains (Glick, 1980; Heiser et al., 1984; Agre, 1985; Worrell, 1994; Kujala et al., 1997; Clanton & Coupe, 1998; Hartig & Henderson, 1999; Drezner, 2003; Croisier, 2004; Malliaropoulos et al., 2004; Sherry & Best, 2004; Verrall et al., 2005), and because acute stretching may decrease hamstring concentric and eccentric strength (Brandenburg, 2006; Ogura et al., 2007; Herda et al., 2008; McHugh & Nesse, 2008; Costa et al., 2009b; Sekir et al., 2010), it is possible that stretching may also reduce the H:Q ratio and increase the perceived risk of injury as assessed by the H:Q ratio.
    In summary, the current findings were generally consistent with previous studies (Nelson et al., 2001; Evetovich et al., 2003; Cramer et al., 2004, 2005; Marek et al., 2005; Brandenburg, 2006; Herda et al., 2008; Costa et al., 2009a, b; Sekir et al., 2010) and revealed that static stretching caused acute decreases in muscle strength. As a result, H:Q ratios also decreased after stretching. Conventional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings stretching, whereas functional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings and quadriceps stretching and quadriceps-only stretching. These findings suggested that static stretching may adversely affect the conventional as well as the functional H:Q ratio.




    static stretching prior to weight training to me appears counterproductive, if stretching twice a day not around strength training would suffice


    Yeah I mean its pretty standard not to do static stretching before high performance days(basketball game, 1 rep max days, etc)...but it's not going to make a huge difference for the average person. If your typical client feels more comfortable doing some arm/neck/leg stretches before your workout, it's really not going to hurt much. They don't need MAX muscle recruitment for everything on every day. It'd be best not to use the time they pay for and instead just teach them a few stretches to do after their session ends.

    As for stretching in general, I don't see a problem with personal trainers doing stretches on typical, healthy individuals. And I am biased, but I'd rather see someone with sciatica going to a physical therapist or let's say that 65 year old with OA and Osteoporosis who is having a lot of pain. Some of these people are pretty brittle and it wouldn't be hard for an in shape trainer to do some serious damage to them.
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    Originally Posted by DPT31 View Post
    Yeah I mean its pretty standard not to do static stretching before high performance days(basketball game, 1 rep max days, etc)
    since when is it not standard to stretch before activity? excluding powerlifters

    Originally Posted by DPT31 View Post
    ...but it's not going to make a huge difference for the average person. If your typical client feels more comfortable doing some arm/neck/leg stretches before your workout, it's really not going to hurt much. They don't need MAX muscle recruitment for everything on every day.
    agreed, as long as it was not muscles being directly involved that day as it decreased force output and places them potentially at higher risk of injury with little literature to support it

    Originally Posted by DPT31 View Post
    It'd be best not to use the time they pay for and instead just teach them a few stretches to do after their session ends.
    agreed


    Originally Posted by DPT31 View Post
    As for stretching in general, I don't see a problem with personal trainers doing stretches on typical, healthy individuals. And I am biased, but I'd rather see someone with sciatica going to a physical therapist or let's say that 65 year old with OA and Osteoporosis who is having a lot of pain. Some of these people are pretty brittle and it wouldn't be hard for an in shape trainer to do some serious damage to them.
    my point earlier, agreed
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    Originally Posted by braskibra View Post
    Acute effects of static and dynamic stretching on hamstring eccentric isokinetic strength and unilateral hamstring to quadriceps strength ratios.


    [The results suggest that dynamic and static stretching has no influence on eccentric strength profile and unilateral H/Q strength ratios and hence both forms of stretching do not reduce these two primary risk factors for muscle injury.

    or how bout

    Acute effects of static stretching on peak torque and the hamstrings-to-quadriceps conventional and functional ratios.

    Similarly, Yeung et al. (2009) reported that competitive sprinters with a pre-season H:Q ratio lower than 0.60 at the velocity of 180°/s had their risk of hamstring injury increased by 17 times. As a result, decreased hamstring strength could potentially lower the H:Q ratio (Costa et al., 2009a), and consequently increase the perceived risk of hamstring- and knee-related injury as indicated by the H:Q ratio. As stretching has been recommended for prevention and rehabilitation of hamstring strains (Glick, 1980; Heiser et al., 1984; Agre, 1985; Worrell, 1994; Kujala et al., 1997; Clanton & Coupe, 1998; Hartig & Henderson, 1999; Drezner, 2003; Croisier, 2004; Malliaropoulos et al., 2004; Sherry & Best, 2004; Verrall et al., 2005), and because acute stretching may decrease hamstring concentric and eccentric strength (Brandenburg, 2006; Ogura et al., 2007; Herda et al., 2008; McHugh & Nesse, 2008; Costa et al., 2009b; Sekir et al., 2010), it is possible that stretching may also reduce the H:Q ratio and increase the perceived risk of injury as assessed by the H:Q ratio.
    In summary, the current findings were generally consistent with previous studies (Nelson et al., 2001; Evetovich et al., 2003; Cramer et al., 2004, 2005; Marek et al., 2005; Brandenburg, 2006; Herda et al., 2008; Costa et al., 2009a, b; Sekir et al., 2010) and revealed that static stretching caused acute decreases in muscle strength. As a result, H:Q ratios also decreased after stretching. Conventional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings stretching, whereas functional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings and quadriceps stretching and quadriceps-only stretching. These findings suggested that static stretching may adversely affect the conventional as well as the functional H:Q ratio.




    static stretching prior to weight training to me appears counterproductive, if stretching twice a day not around strength training would suffice
    These are two studies among the millions out there. I'm not sure why you picked these, or furthermore what they prove? My point was that stretching to decrease the passive tension in a muscle might be beneficial. My example was stretching the muscles that oppose dorsiflexion - which is necessary to some level when performing certain squat variations. My left leg has less dorsiflexion than my right. When I use static/dynamic stretching to balance this out prior to squatting, it results in a better squat session for me. I don't need a study to tell me this. Squatting feels better when I do it.

    Also, the devil is in the details. I don't have access to these articles, but you can't come to conclusions from abstracts. You have to look at the whole body of research and the flaws of said research. For example, a lot of flexibility and stretching studies include excessively long stretching protocols. Furthermore, I found this part of your second article particular interesting:

    "Conventional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings stretching, whereas functional H:Q ratios decreased after hamstrings and quadriceps stretching and quadriceps-only stretching."

    I could be missing something here, but isn't it odd that stretching the quadriceps only resulted in a decreased H:Q ratio? If stretching decreases muscle strength, as noted by the results of the same study, wouldn't it make sense that stretching the quadriceps only would increase the H:Q ratio? Unless I missed something, which is possible, it would make me wonder how they tested the H:Q ratio (guessing isokinetic?) and whether the H:Q ratio would have decreased from a control condition because of poor testing procedures?

    I appreciate science, but it is not the final world on anything. Experts in this field don't always come to proper conclusions based on the data presented either.
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    I'm not sure why you picked these, or furthermore what they prove? My point was that stretching to decrease the passive tension in a muscle might be beneficial
    key word might be, yet proven counter productive in force production, i guess the point is you shouldnt stretch any muscle your planning to use directly during your lifting session

    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    My example was stretching the muscles that oppose dorsiflexion - which is necessary to some level when performing certain squat variations. My left leg has less dorsiflexion than my right. When I use static/dynamic stretching to balance this out prior to squatting, it results in a better squat session for me. I don't need a study to tell me this.
    i prefer studies, not clinical expertise but yet further proving my point that stretching muscles univolved in force production is ok, along with stretching at times when force production is not required

    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    I don't have access to these articles,
    okk

    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    but you can't come to conclusions from abstracts. You have to look at the whole body of research and the flaws of said research.
    duh, this article was chosen as it was published feb 2013 and was done solely with women which obviously limits generalizability but its conclusions are relatively in agreement with most of the literature , and does stretching the quadriceps make sense to decrease H:Q , the authors contribute it to possible neural receptors or mechanoreceptors,
    I look at it like stretching using golgi tendon organs it makes somewhat sense but obviously is an area that needs more exploration
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    Originally Posted by braskibra View Post
    key word might be, yet proven counter productive in force production, i guess the point is you shouldnt stretch any muscle your planning to use directly during your lifting session



    i prefer studies, not clinical expertise but yet further proving my point that stretching muscles univolved in force production is ok, along with stretching at times when force production is not required



    okk



    duh, this article was chosen as it was published feb 2013 and was done solely with women which obviously limits generalizability but its conclusions are relatively in agreement with most of the literature , and does stretching the quadriceps make sense to decrease H:Q , the authors contribute it to possible neural receptors or mechanoreceptors,
    I look at it like stretching using golgi tendon organs it makes somewhat sense but obviously is an area that needs more exploration
    So, basically you agree with me, but you quoted my original post and cited those studies in response to it? Maybe you accidentally quoted it? In any case, I agree that with the current knowledge out there, it doesn't really make sense to stretch prime movers prior to strengthening exercises. However, you could make the case for stretching antagonists. The fact that stretching seems to decrease force product is both good and bad. In the end, it really matters what your goals are.

    I'm still not sold on the whole H:Q ratio thing with stretching the quadriceps. I'd like to see a control. Why would receptors in the quadriceps muscles turn off motor units in the hamstrings? Perhaps there is something that is counter-intuitive going on, but I wouldn't dismiss that it could be an error in testing.
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    So, basically you agree with me, but you quoted my original post and cited those studies in response to it? Maybe you accidentally quoted it? In any case, I agree that with the current knowledge out there, it doesn't really make sense to stretch prime movers prior to strengthening exercises. However, you could make the case for stretching antagonists. The fact that stretching seems to decrease force product is both good and bad. In the end, it really matters what your goals are.

    I'm still not sold on the whole H:Q ratio thing with stretching the quadriceps. I'd like to see a control. Why would receptors in the quadriceps muscles turn off motor units in the hamstrings? Perhaps there is something that is counter-intuitive going on, but I wouldn't dismiss that it could be an error in testing.
    pre test post test design, the controls were the same participants without stretching
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    So, basically you agree with me, but you quoted my original post and cited those studies in response to it? Maybe you accidentally quoted it? In any case, I agree that with the current knowledge out there, it doesn't really make sense to stretch prime movers prior to strengthening exercises. However, you could make the case for stretching antagonists. The fact that stretching seems to decrease force product is both good and bad. In the end, it really matters what your goals are.

    I'm still not sold on the whole H:Q ratio thing with stretching the quadriceps. I'd like to see a control. Why would receptors in the quadriceps muscles turn off motor units in the hamstrings? Perhaps there is something that is counter-intuitive going on, but I wouldn't dismiss that it could be an error in testing.
    because stretching isnt solely muscular, your involving neural factors, think of central pattern generators allowing people and animals to walk following spinal cord injuries provided the right stimulus.
    stretching the hamstings also decreased force out put in the quadriceps in this study but overall results in a decreased H:Q, im not saying that it couldnt be an error but i also wouldn't dismiss it, i think its appropriate to say that the risks outweigh the benefits of stretching pre activity of involved muscles
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    Originally Posted by braskibra View Post
    because stretching isnt solely muscular, your involving neural factors, think of central pattern generators allowing people and animals to walk following spinal cord injuries provided the right stimulus.
    stretching the hamstings also decreased force out put in the quadriceps in this study but overall results in a decreased H:Q, im not saying that it couldnt be an error but i also wouldn't dismiss it, i think its appropriate to say that the risks outweigh the benefits of stretching pre activity of involved muscles
    Did you look at the controls at all? Quadricep peak torque decreased by 2.9% (statistically significant) at 60 deg/s and hamstring peak torque decreased by 4.72% (again significant) at 180 deg/s from sitting (the control condition). Furthermore, there were pretty consistent downward trends in almost every measure, including H:Q ratios, for the controls. Lesson learned - sitting and doing nothing is not safe pre-exercise.

    If there were downwards trends in force and H:Q ratios before you even stretched them, what makes you think that the numbers are necessarily accurate? The decreases in eccentric hamstring peak force weren't tremendously different between the quadricep stretches and control. That being said, I'm not willing to say 100% that something isn't going on, but again, I would be careful regarding the conclusions that you derive from studies.
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    Did you look at the controls at all? Quadricep peak torque decreased by 2.9% (statistically significant) at 60 deg/s and hamstring peak torque decreased by 4.72% (again significant) at 180 deg/s from sitting (the control condition). Furthermore, there were pretty consistent downward trends in almost every measure, including H:Q ratios, for the controls. Lesson learned - sitting and doing nothing is not safe pre-exercise.
    its not sitting and doing nothing, your asking the control to perform isokinetic testing, sit for an hour, then perform again, there is most likely going to be a slight decrease in strength the second time you perform a test which is consistent with other iso studies
    the only statistically sign values were the torque production: H:Q ratios did not reach statistically significant levels
    jussss sayinnnnnn

    they re multiple studies showing decreased force output following static stretching especially recently
    idk what the affection for stretching in here is but the risks do not outweight the benefits preexercise, again stretching muscles not involved is ok which is essentially what you said earlier, if you want to improve ROM of prime movers then twice a day not around activity is most likely more beneficial
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    "Oh my god it decreases peak power!"
    Yes but your client is pressing a 5kg dumbbell on a swiss ball, how much peak power does she really need? Even if you're training her properly, when she's squatting 40kg it really is not going to make any difference. If someone is cleaning 140kg then okay this stuff makes a difference. How many of your clients are doing something like that?

    You guys are majoring in the minors. Next you'll be introducing Westside periodisation for the 45 year old overweight accountant who just wants his back to stop hurting. Leave this stuff for the exercise scientists who can't coach a squat to ponder.
    1. if some part is uncomfortably tight, stretch it now
    2. otherwise, moving through a full range of motion in basic movements like a goblet squat is enough joint mobility work for most people
    3. stretching after a workout makes the day after pain not as bad, and more importantly makes the person relaxed and want to come back again next time
    That's all there is to it.
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    "Oh my god it decreases peak power!"
    Yes but your client is pressing a 5kg dumbbell on a swiss ball, how much peak power does she really need? Even if you're training her properly, when she's squatting 40kg it really is not going to make any difference. If someone is cleaning 140kg then okay this stuff makes a difference. How many of your clients are doing something like that?

    You guys are majoring in the minors. Next you'll be introducing Westside periodisation for the 45 year old overweight accountant who just wants his back to stop hurting. Leave this stuff for the exercise scientists who can't coach a squat to ponder.
    1. if some part is uncomfortably tight, stretch it now
    2. otherwise, moving through a full range of motion in basic movements like a goblet squat is enough joint mobility work for most people
    3. stretching after a workout makes the day after pain not as bad, and more importantly makes the person relaxed and want to come back again next time
    That's all there is to it.

    "omg sorry your clientele consists of old ladies!!!!!!",

    regardless if your treating a top level athlete or an account or a little old lady, if your a good trainer and your clients goal is to 'gain muscle" and hypothetically you ll be training at say 80% of their 1RM, then it makes a difference for everyone, if that 5 kg press your having your old lady do on a swiss ball is her 10RM then your darn right functional ratios will matter and so will stretching preactivity

    1. first youd have to discern why it is uncomfortably tight, tightness could be due to spasm or injury, you would not want to stretch an acutely strained muscle
    2. idk what that even means
    3. stretching has been shown not to reduce DOMS so idk what that means, agree with the relaxation part



    im dealing with college and pro athletes, hgh athletes, old ladies, accountants
    and that includes rehabilitation of injuries
    I treat 45 year old accountants with LBP all the time, still would never recommend stretching prior to activity

    isnt westside the conjugate method
    id prolly use the mckenzie method to treat LBP , pending patient symptoms and subjective history thooooo
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    Kyle - we can't always simplify every single aspect of training. Even so, the argument here isn't stretching vs. not stretching, it is using research to come to bogus conclusions.

    Other guy - just because something isn't statistically significant doesn't mean it wouldn't be if the number of subjects was greater. Statistics suck sometimes and people think that something being statistically significant, or not, proves things to absolutely true. Look at the trends. If the control decreases force production and H:Q ratios in almost every case, then they should either find a way to test such that this doesn't happen, or account for this error. If sitting and retesting is 3/4 of the decreased force needed for statistical significance, we shouldn't come to the conclusion that the last 1/4 (as a result of stretching) is responsible for the significant effect.

    In addition, you might consider typing full sentences and spelling correctly.
    Last edited by SFT; 02-28-2013 at 04:41 AM.
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