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Thread: Anti-carb up??

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    Post Anti-carb up??

    Hi All,

    I don't normally go anywhere else for Keto advice but I stumbled across this answer on yahoo in answer to somebody asking why it is detrimental to carb cycle on a ketogenic diet:

    Carb cycling programs never allow the body to become fully fat adapted, which I believe takes 3-6 weeks. The metabolism just shuts down & awaits a return to glycolysis. You hear bodybuilders claim that their body doesn't function without carbs, this is because they've done carb cycling & never allowed their body to convert - so it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. This study referenced:

    show that the body (even for athletes) become fat adapted *with time* & allow unimpaired endurance performance despite nutritional ketosis. "The most obvious of these is the time allotted (or not) for keto-adaptation. In this context, the prescient observation of Schwatka (that adaptation to "a diet of reindeer meat" takes 2–3 weeks) says it all. None of the comparative low-carbohydrate versus high-carbohydrate studies done in support of the carbohydrate loading hypothesis sustained the low carbohydrate diet for more than 2 weeks .... There are to date no studies that carefully examine the optimum length of this keto-adaptation period, but it is clearly longer than one week and likely well advanced within 3–4 weeks. The process does not appear to happen any faster in highly trained athletes than in overweight or untrained individuals. This adaptation process also appears to require consistent adherence to carbohydrate restriction, as people who intermittently consume carbohydrates while attempting a ketogenic diet report subjectively reduced exercise tolerance." I highly recommend low carb way of eating for optimal health. It takes 3-6 weeks for the body to become fully fat adapted to perform athletically but the body does convert *if* carb cycling is not used. Athletes studied said their performance was effected the first week or so but recovered to full athletic ability within a few weeks. For bodybuilders, low carb creates lean tissues even without working out, working out should create even more muscle mass. When insulin dominates the blood stream, testosterone & human growth hormone (HGH) aren't produced, which are both anabolic hormones & contribute to muscle growth. Excess protein is converted to glucose *unless* dietary fat levels are greater than 80% of dietary calories, then I believe that excess protein is forced to create lean tissues (just as excess carbohydrates are forced to create fat tissues). Marathon athletes aren't restricted to glycogen stores. Athletes in glycolysis (using glucose for fuel) have to "carb load" to fill glycogen stores but athletes in ketosis (using fat for fuel) don't have these restrictions. A normal weighted person has enough fat stores to run for more than 200 hours - glycogen stores only last a few hours before being depleted & the athlete "hits the wall" from the article below -Numerous current studies show that dieters who follow high-protein low-carb strategies--even plans with higher fat intake--lose more fat and maintain or gain more muscle mass than dieters who rely on higher carb diets. Yes, you read that right--many dieters actually gained muscle mass without working out, simply by eating a high-protein diet. This is due to several factors. First, amino acids from protein drive muscle growth. When you consume a high-protein meal, amino acids from the protein travel to muscle cells and actually initiate the processes that cause muscle growth.

    I highly recommend adding virgin coconut oil to your diet. All fats can be used for sustained energy, but coconut oil is the (only) fat that can be used for quick energy like a carb. I think that ketosis is not the back up fuel plan. I think ketosis was meant to be primary fuel plan, that is easily overridden (one bite) by ingestion of carbs (or alcohol). The body is rarely allowed to become fully fat adapted, especially in these days of people using processed food formula to feed infants instead of breast milk. Carbs were never supposed to be available year around, only seasonally during harvest. The body can easily handle carbs even in excess occasionally, just not continuously. The body can also be fueled by protein (via gluconeogenesis) but long term protein synthesis creates the byproducts of ammonia & nitrogen. The body can easily handle clearing out these byproducts but if gluconeogenesis is used as the primary fuel source for long term, the body can be overwhelmed (poisoned) by the excess ammonia & nitrogen. It's all contingent on balance but the body functions at optimal levels on more dietary fat & suboptimal levels on less dietary fat. Source(s): Glucose is the bodies preferred fuel - the body can convert 100% of carbs, 58% of protein & 10% of dietary fat into glucose. The body can also be fueled by fat (dietary fat & fat cells) but only in the absence of carbs. Your brain actually prefers* to be fueled by ketones (part of the fat burning process), it does require glucose also, but glucose can be easily converted from excess protein if needed or dietary fat. * After 3 days of carb restriction, the brain uses ketone bodies as fuel, cutting its need for glucose. The production of ketone bodies & glycerol cuts the brain's glucose requirement from 120 g per day to about 10 g per day in time. Ketones have been described as "magic" in their ability to increase metabolic efficiency, while decreasing production of free radicals, the damaging byproducts of normal metabolism. The heart and brain operate 25% more efficiently using ketones as a source of energy.

    Thoughts?
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    Cool Best summary ever!

    Originally Posted by toast.tm View Post
    Hi All,

    I don't normally go anywhere else for Keto advice but I stumbled across this answer on yahoo in answer to somebody asking why it is detrimental to carb cycle on a ketogenic diet:

    Carb cycling programs never allow the body to become fully fat adapted, which I believe takes 3-6 weeks. The metabolism just shuts down & awaits a return to glycolysis. You hear bodybuilders claim that their body doesn't function without carbs, this is because they've done carb cycling & never allowed their body to convert - so it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. This study referenced:

    show that the body (even for athletes) become fat adapted *with time* & allow unimpaired endurance performance despite nutritional ketosis. "The most obvious of these is the time allotted (or not) for keto-adaptation. In this context, the prescient observation of Schwatka (that adaptation to "a diet of reindeer meat" takes 2–3 weeks) says it all. None of the comparative low-carbohydrate versus high-carbohydrate studies done in support of the carbohydrate loading hypothesis sustained the low carbohydrate diet for more than 2 weeks .... There are to date no studies that carefully examine the optimum length of this keto-adaptation period, but it is clearly longer than one week and likely well advanced within 3–4 weeks. The process does not appear to happen any faster in highly trained athletes than in overweight or untrained individuals. This adaptation process also appears to require consistent adherence to carbohydrate restriction, as people who intermittently consume carbohydrates while attempting a ketogenic diet report subjectively reduced exercise tolerance." I highly recommend low carb way of eating for optimal health. It takes 3-6 weeks for the body to become fully fat adapted to perform athletically but the body does convert *if* carb cycling is not used. Athletes studied said their performance was effected the first week or so but recovered to full athletic ability within a few weeks. For bodybuilders, low carb creates lean tissues even without working out, working out should create even more muscle mass. When insulin dominates the blood stream, testosterone & human growth hormone (HGH) aren't produced, which are both anabolic hormones & contribute to muscle growth. Excess protein is converted to glucose *unless* dietary fat levels are greater than 80% of dietary calories, then I believe that excess protein is forced to create lean tissues (just as excess carbohydrates are forced to create fat tissues). Marathon athletes aren't restricted to glycogen stores. Athletes in glycolysis (using glucose for fuel) have to "carb load" to fill glycogen stores but athletes in ketosis (using fat for fuel) don't have these restrictions. A normal weighted person has enough fat stores to run for more than 200 hours - glycogen stores only last a few hours before being depleted & the athlete "hits the wall" from the article below -Numerous current studies show that dieters who follow high-protein low-carb strategies--even plans with higher fat intake--lose more fat and maintain or gain more muscle mass than dieters who rely on higher carb diets. Yes, you read that right--many dieters actually gained muscle mass without working out, simply by eating a high-protein diet. This is due to several factors. First, amino acids from protein drive muscle growth. When you consume a high-protein meal, amino acids from the protein travel to muscle cells and actually initiate the processes that cause muscle growth.

    I highly recommend adding virgin coconut oil to your diet. All fats can be used for sustained energy, but coconut oil is the (only) fat that can be used for quick energy like a carb. I think that ketosis is not the back up fuel plan. I think ketosis was meant to be primary fuel plan, that is easily overridden (one bite) by ingestion of carbs (or alcohol). The body is rarely allowed to become fully fat adapted, especially in these days of people using processed food formula to feed infants instead of breast milk. Carbs were never supposed to be available year around, only seasonally during harvest. The body can easily handle carbs even in excess occasionally, just not continuously. The body can also be fueled by protein (via gluconeogenesis) but long term protein synthesis creates the byproducts of ammonia & nitrogen. The body can easily handle clearing out these byproducts but if gluconeogenesis is used as the primary fuel source for long term, the body can be overwhelmed (poisoned) by the excess ammonia & nitrogen. It's all contingent on balance but the body functions at optimal levels on more dietary fat & suboptimal levels on less dietary fat. Source(s): Glucose is the bodies preferred fuel - the body can convert 100% of carbs, 58% of protein & 10% of dietary fat into glucose. The body can also be fueled by fat (dietary fat & fat cells) but only in the absence of carbs. Your brain actually prefers* to be fueled by ketones (part of the fat burning process), it does require glucose also, but glucose can be easily converted from excess protein if needed or dietary fat. * After 3 days of carb restriction, the brain uses ketone bodies as fuel, cutting its need for glucose. The production of ketone bodies & glycerol cuts the brain's glucose requirement from 120 g per day to about 10 g per day in time. Ketones have been described as "magic" in their ability to increase metabolic efficiency, while decreasing production of free radicals, the damaging byproducts of normal metabolism. The heart and brain operate 25% more efficiently using ketones as a source of energy.

    Thoughts?
    Hey that is the best summary of the keto / fat adaption / digestion /fuel partitioning process that Ive ever read and I just wanted to say thanks
    'You can get results or make excuses but you can't do both!' (Tom Venuto)
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    good read
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    Soooo... even if you are fairly active and workout everyday...
    You shouldn't have carb ups or do TKD if you wanna lose body fat and add muscle mass?
    Sounds a bit too ideal for me. losing body fat and putting on muscle mass at the same time.
    or would it be eating more than maintenance to put on muscle, and eating less that maintenance to lose body fat?

    My primary goal right now is to bring down body fat % to low 10s. I'm currently sitting at 20%
    I do carb refeeds every 2 weeks with 3500 calories for 24 hours. Maybe i should reconsider?
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    Does this explain why an online keto macro calculator told me I should only be eating 78 grams of protein a day,when I'm 6'2, weighing 180? I found this very strange but never got around to asking about it here. I'm roughly 16% body fat, so my LBM is obviously higher than 78 lbs. Can anyone offer any feedback on this? I've been keeping my protein consumption to at least 150 grams a day, and up to 180 on lifting days to avoid muscle loss. Is this keeping me out of ketosis due to glycogenisis, even if my fat grams are equal to or greater than my protein consumption?

    Great read by the way.
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    You must carb up IMO weekly if you are to continue to keep your muscle gains. The only time I didn't carb up was the initial 2 week period and damn it sucked ass. I was weak as **** the 2nd week.

    Carb up solved pretty much all my lifting problems. On top of that my fat loss seems to accelerate when I do a "dirty" bulk up instead of counting calories.... It seems like my leptin levels skyrocket back to when I was bit overweight, and thus the next 5 days it remains pretty high and as a result my body is burning more calories (sitting)
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    Originally Posted by 15BodyFat View Post
    You must carb up IMO weekly if you are to continue to keep your muscle gains. The only time I didn't carb up was the initial 2 week period and damn it sucked ass. I was weak as **** the 2nd week.

    Carb up solved pretty much all my lifting problems. On top of that my fat loss seems to accelerate when I do a "dirty" bulk up instead of counting calories.... It seems like my leptin levels skyrocket back to when I was bit overweight, and thus the next 5 days it remains pretty high and as a result my body is burning more calories (sitting)
    It solved your problems because you weren't fully adapted yet. You need to give it around 3-4 weeks, possibly longer, depending on how your body works.
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    excellent read, thanx. The problem with prolonged keto is a social thing. My whole family sighs with relief when I am on carb up days. Not that I am nazi stubborn or anything, but "going out" in my language means "eating sнiт", unless I am carbing up. And on refeed days I can eat whateer grandma cooks, we don't have to bump into each other in the kitchen making different dishes.
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    so, I guess we need a "prolonged keto" guinea pig
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    Originally Posted by weiss1967 View Post
    so, I guess we need a "prolonged keto" guinea pig
    I'll volunteer

    I've always done CKD but found that it was hindering me. This Wednesday will be two weeks since I've started keto again and I won't be stopping for at least another 3 weeks. I want to see what being "fat adapted" is all about.
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    I'm already planning on doing strict keto for 1-2 months before I bring in any kind of 'carb day'. But I don't know if I'm a good example because I'm ~35% bf and need to loose ~150lbs. I will say I've not noticed any muscle loss, and my workouts didn't suffer at all because of the diet. I got acclimatized fairly quickly though, I was in ketosis on day three and over the dulldrums on day 4.
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    Jediokie, you are a good "specimen" no worries, your input will be highly appreciated. I am joining too, actually made decision to quit carbing up when I first read the article. If sport performance on porolonged keto really does get back to glicolisis levels, then this will be a killer diet.
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    A good read, but a read i didn't like to hear, if that makes sense.

    Started my carbups 2 weeks ago and have loved them! As weiss says, allows me to have a more "social" weekend, take the girl out for dinner, see my pals, and not worry about having to ask people to not include carbs for me, and please don't add this to the food etc etc.

    If i need to go into a full on keto diet with no "refeed" i'll be bummed. I've lost 1 stone on this, and am pushing the same weights if not more from when i started... so i'm sold on the idea it works, but these refeeds are heaven for me! I could contemplate doing them only once every month, but like the article suggests, i'd just get into full fat-burning mode and then go and screw it all up by having carbs...

    will have to contemplate a full on strict non-carb keto diet and see where it gets me.. but potentially not start that until i meet a "wall" with how things are going currently.
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    This is interesting to read, especially since most of the information available here says that you can do a TKD from day one. I myself, have been doing a TKD after about a two week induction period. I've had good strength gains, while my weight has gone down a minor 5lb (started taking creatine recently, gained it back in water retention). Even though the weight has not changed, I'm gaining muscle definition and have even received compliments on the changes from the last few months.

    Perhaps I will try this starting my next exercise week for a month or so and see how the gains go. I wouldn't doubt I would lose weight a bit faster, as it would further my calorie deficiet from the lack of dextrose.
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    I had already decided to eliminate "carb ups" because my body Hates them..always feel bad afterwards..instead I will just have a small cheat everyonce in while. Like a little bit of ice cream every other weekend or something like that. I have never been bothered by the social part of it. If we go out to eat there is usually a steak or hamburger to be had as my husband is a meat and potatoes type of person.
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    So according to this my macros should be 80% fat %15 protien %5 carb?
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