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  1. #1
    Registered User MSDPL's Avatar
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    Rep range for assistance

    I'm referring more to bench specifically. Running Westside principles: for my supplements for bench i always kept between the 5-8 range. I train back in the 10 rep range, im not very strong so maybe im not choosing optimal rep ranges. Im subbed to a couple Westside logs, but ive noticed a lot of people who follow westside use much higher rep range then that. Ive seen anywhere from 10-25 rep sets on Hamburgertrain's logs and even 50 rep sets on occasion. why? more muscle mass? even if it was providing adequete mass wouldnt be slow twitch muslce fibers and not provide very much in the ways of strength? sorry if this is a stupid question.
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    MS,CSCS,CF-L1,USAW,WBB HamburgerTrain's Avatar
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    When I am in an intensification block, my bench sessions ideally look like this:

    DE or ME bench
    High rep DB work- either finding a 50 rep max, or 3 sets to failure or high rep babrbell work- one set to failure with 185, 225, or 275
    Heavy DB or BB Extensions- up to a 6 rep max
    Lats
    Other stuff


    Asking why is not a stupid question at all. The number one reason I do super high rep sets is because Louie recommended that to me when I was up there. My arms are small, my triceps are weak, and I have a hard time keeping my form tight during lifts. Doing 50 perfect reps with a true 50 rep max, even though it sucks, helps develop all of those weaknesses. Also, there is some reseach that suggests "one set to failure" has correlations with one rep max strength and vice versa.

    Odds are, if you do any training at all for any extended period of time, you are mainly developing slow twitch fibers. The amount of volume most people do is on par with aerobic work anyway. I am not saying that no fast twitch fibers are developed because they are when you do max efforts, jumps/sprints/throws, and dynamic work but all recovery is aerobic. The difference between what we do and what bodybuilders/marathon runners/triathletes do is ou type I fibers have taken on fast twitch characteristics. If I rememebr correctly, I think the myosin heavy chain determines fiber type and the myosin light chain determines things like coupling speed and coupling force. So, heavy training (powerlifting) shifts those light chains in type 1 fibers to act more like heavy chains in IIa,b, and x fibers. Despite what most people say, you can't turn a slow twitch into a fast twitch. It is impossible. It's like muscle turning to fat. Doesn't f*cking happen. What can happen is the cross sectional area of one or the other being developed.

    Amount of fast twitch fibers in you body are 100% genetic. The trainability of type I fibers is 100% genetic. All this means is it takes some people more time to develop speed and strength than others. So, the great equalizer in training is time, patience, and hard work for any sporting discipline. Everything is easier for an athlete with a high percentage of type II fibers because they more easily take on type I characteristics (as opposed to type I to type II characteristics). Think about it:

    Derek Poundstone ran a 10K for charity last year and finished in a pretty good time. If the guy who won that 10K decided to train for strongman, it would probably take him a very long time to establish an equivalent outcome to Dereks at the 10K.

    Got a little derailed there, hope that made sense.
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  3. #3
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    Between 3-100 or more.

    Biggest issue is if you push to heavy and turn your supplemental and assistance lifts into Max effort. If you can't easily triple the weight then most likely your hitting above 90% into Max effort territory.

    Like hamburger I was also suggested a lift or two at the end or on my fist lift to hit a weakness to be 50 or 100 reps. And at the end try and make it a single continuous set. Or at least as close as possible pushing it until you can and then up the weight or tension and repeat until you can.
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  4. #4
    MS,CSCS,CF-L1,USAW,WBB HamburgerTrain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jason2459 View Post
    Between 3-100 or more.

    Biggest issue is if you push to heavy and turn your supplemental and assistance lifts into Max effort. If you can't easily triple the weight then most likely your hitting above 90% into Max effort territory.

    Like hamburger I was also suggested a lift or two at the end or on my fist lift to hit a weakness to be 50 or 100 reps. And at the end try and make it a single continuous set. Or at least as close as possible pushing it until you can and then up the weight or tension and repeat until you can.
    I don't know why I keep talking about him today, but derek poundstaone wrote and awesome article on Pain Tolerance Training. Basically the same stuff. I think he said he noticed his biceps were failing first on any event that required a rope and pulling. So he started curling the bar for one set to failure after workouts. He said he started around 70 reps. When he got up to 175+, he noticed his arms didn't fail first anymore.
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  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    I don't know why I keep talking about him today, but derek poundstaone wrote and awesome article on Pain Tolerance Training. Basically the same stuff. I think he said he noticed his biceps were failing first on any event that required a rope and pulling. So he started curling the bar for one set to failure after workouts. He said he started around 70 reps. When he got up to 175+, he noticed his arms didn't fail first anymore.
    Gotta love those Poundstone curls
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  6. #6
    Registered User MSDPL's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    When I am in an intensification block, my bench sessions ideally look like this:

    DE or ME bench
    High rep DB work- either finding a 50 rep max, or 3 sets to failure or high rep babrbell work- one set to failure with 185, 225, or 275
    Heavy DB or BB Extensions- up to a 6 rep max
    Lats
    Other stuff


    Asking why is not a stupid question at all. The number one reason I do super high rep sets is because Louie recommended that to me when I was up there. My arms are small, my triceps are weak, and I have a hard time keeping my form tight during lifts. Doing 50 perfect reps with a true 50 rep max, even though it sucks, helps develop all of those weaknesses. Also, there is some reseach that suggests "one set to failure" has correlations with one rep max strength and vice versa.

    Odds are, if you do any training at all for any extended period of time, you are mainly developing slow twitch fibers. The amount of volume most people do is on par with aerobic work anyway. I am not saying that no fast twitch fibers are developed because they are when you do max efforts, jumps/sprints/throws, and dynamic work but all recovery is aerobic. The difference between what we do and what bodybuilders/marathon runners/triathletes do is ou type I fibers have taken on fast twitch characteristics. If I rememebr correctly, I think the myosin heavy chain determines fiber type and the myosin light chain determines things like coupling speed and coupling force. So, heavy training (powerlifting) shifts those light chains in type 1 fibers to act more like heavy chains in IIa,b, and x fibers. Despite what most people say, you can't turn a slow twitch into a fast twitch. It is impossible. It's like muscle turning to fat. Doesn't f*cking happen. What can happen is the cross sectional area of one or the other being developed.

    Amount of fast twitch fibers in you body are 100% genetic. The trainability of type I fibers is 100% genetic. All this means is it takes some people more time to develop speed and strength than others. So, the great equalizer in training is time, patience, and hard work for any sporting discipline. Everything is easier for an athlete with a high percentage of type II fibers because they more easily take on type I characteristics (as opposed to type I to type II characteristics). Think about it:

    Derek Poundstone ran a 10K for charity last year and finished in a pretty good time. If the guy who won that 10K decided to train for strongman, it would probably take him a very long time to establish an equivalent outcome to Dereks at the 10K.

    Got a little derailed there, hope that made sense.
    Originally Posted by Jason2459 View Post
    Between 3-100 or more.

    Biggest issue is if you push to heavy and turn your supplemental and assistance lifts into Max effort. If you can't easily triple the weight then most likely your hitting above 90% into Max effort territory.

    Like hamburger I was also suggested a lift or two at the end or on my fist lift to hit a weakness to be 50 or 100 reps. And at the end try and make it a single continuous set. Or at least as close as possible pushing it until you can and then up the weight or tension and repeat until you can.

    Thanks guys, alright im definitly going to be doin this because i have the same weaknesses u mentioned just much weaker lol. Do you guy still do heavier assistance though at a lower rep range, like between the 6-8 range, and if you do where do u throw that in before or after the high rep work? and is it necessary to do heavier assistance or is the max effort enough of heavy work?
    Last edited by MSDPL; 02-15-2013 at 09:45 AM.
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  7. #7
    Registered User Jason2459's Avatar
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    Why stick to one thing? You'll have to find out what works best for you right now and when it doesn't anymore change it. Do reps for time, do 5x5, 10x3,2x25, 1x100, 3x5,4x6, 6x4, 3x3,4x10, etc. etc. etc. Don't think to much.
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  8. #8
    Registered User musclehead09's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    When I am in an intensification block, my bench sessions ideally look like this:

    DE or ME bench
    High rep DB work- either finding a 50 rep max, or 3 sets to failure or high rep babrbell work- one set to failure with 185, 225, or 275
    Heavy DB or BB Extensions- up to a 6 rep max
    Lats
    Other stuff


    Asking why is not a stupid question at all. The number one reason I do super high rep sets is because Louie recommended that to me when I was up there. My arms are small, my triceps are weak, and I have a hard time keeping my form tight during lifts. Doing 50 perfect reps with a true 50 rep max, even though it sucks, helps develop all of those weaknesses. Also, there is some reseach that suggests "one set to failure" has correlations with one rep max strength and vice versa.

    Odds are, if you do any training at all for any extended period of time, you are mainly developing slow twitch fibers. The amount of volume most people do is on par with aerobic work anyway. I am not saying that no fast twitch fibers are developed because they are when you do max efforts, jumps/sprints/throws, and dynamic work but all recovery is aerobic. The difference between what we do and what bodybuilders/marathon runners/triathletes do is ou type I fibers have taken on fast twitch characteristics. If I rememebr correctly, I think the myosin heavy chain determines fiber type and the myosin light chain determines things like coupling speed and coupling force. So, heavy training (powerlifting) shifts those light chains in type 1 fibers to act more like heavy chains in IIa,b, and x fibers. Despite what most people say, you can't turn a slow twitch into a fast twitch. It is impossible. It's like muscle turning to fat. Doesn't f*cking happen. What can happen is the cross sectional area of one or the other being developed.

    Amount of fast twitch fibers in you body are 100% genetic. The trainability of type I fibers is 100% genetic. All this means is it takes some people more time to develop speed and strength than others. So, the great equalizer in training is time, patience, and hard work for any sporting discipline. Everything is easier for an athlete with a high percentage of type II fibers because they more easily take on type I characteristics (as opposed to type I to type II characteristics). Think about it:

    Derek Poundstone ran a 10K for charity last year and finished in a pretty good time. If the guy who won that 10K decided to train for strongman, it would probably take him a very long time to establish an equivalent outcome to Dereks at the 10K.

    Got a little derailed there, hope that made sense.
    that's interesting. Pretty much like the nfl combine going for max reps with 225 only a lot more strict. And I would never think a strongman like that would do something like a long run and come anywhere close to a good time. very interesting.
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  9. #9
    MS,CSCS,CF-L1,USAW,WBB HamburgerTrain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by musclehead09 View Post
    that's interesting. Pretty much like the nfl combine going for max reps with 225 only a lot more strict. And I would never think a strongman like that would do something like a long run and come anywhere close to a good time. very interesting.
    It's all the f*cking same. It always seems to be people trying to sell you someting that overcomplicate methods and training programs. If they confuse you enough, you have to buy their book.

    The perfect program is this:

    Work very hard and do whatever you need to contiue progress. Now, that will be $750 dollars.
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    I don't know why I keep talking about him today, but derek poundstaone wrote and awesome article on Pain Tolerance Training. Basically the same stuff. I think he said he noticed his biceps were failing first on any event that required a rope and pulling. So he started curling the bar for one set to failure after workouts. He said he started around 70 reps. When he got up to 175+, he noticed his arms didn't fail first anymore.
    he did 40lb curls for 350 reps:

    http://www.allthingsgym.com/2012/09/...urls-350-reps/

    damn
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    Total 985

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  11. #11
    MS,CSCS,CF-L1,USAW,WBB HamburgerTrain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jason2459 View Post
    Why stick to one thing? You'll have to find out what works best for you right now and when it doesn't anymore change it. Do reps for time, do 5x5, 10x3,2x25, 1x100, 3x5,4x6, 6x4, 3x3,4x10, etc. etc. etc. Don't think to much.
    x a billion.

    Go into the bodybuilding section for some awesome face palms. "I want to get bigger so I'm doing sets of 12." Do you think your muscles/neurology knows or gives a f*ck what 12 reps are. Moreover, do you really think it knows the difference between 12 reps and 10 reps. Or 3 reps or 100 reps. If it takes you the same amount of time and force to do both 10 and 20 reps, what's the f*cking difference? Sure, you could be a dick and say "Well *adjusts nerdy researcher glasses* what about the mechanical load of more repetitions in a given blah blah blah I don't even lift."

    Your body understands tension, time under tension, and force development. That's it. To be good at strength sports, you have to be good at many different specific strength/general physical qualities.

    That doesn't mean training should be a hodgepodge of random "muscle confusion." It means you need to periodize your training to include everything with a major emphasis on the things you suck at. So, do crossfit.


    Just kidding.
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    It's all the f*cking same. It always seems to be people trying to sell you someting that overcomplicate methods and training programs. If they confuse you enough, you have to buy their book.

    The perfect program is this:

    Work very hard and do whatever you need to contiue progress. Now, that will be $750 dollars.
    Can I get that in an E-Book format for $75?
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  13. #13
    Registered User runtocatch's Avatar
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    If you are small do lotsa reps. If you are big you can back off a bit. Dont go kiddin yourself that you are big though cuz most likely you aint.
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  14. #14
    Registered User samsont's Avatar
    Join Date: May 2008
    Location: Pompano Beach, Florida, United States
    Stats: 5'8", 233 lbs
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    do your assistance movements and rep ranges based on goals and weakness



    hard concept
    New training log + home gym build http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157757733


    Goal: pull 500 before year is over.
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