Cutting without cardio

[bigpapapimp]

New guy here. Been training 4 -5 days a week since mid may.
Little background, lifted til I broke my wrist in 1995, broken, dislocated. frustrated.
Gave up almost entirely for quite a few years , got back into it in feb 2006 was seeiing good progress and fell and broke my fibia in 5 pieces(4 surgeries over next 3 years). between just getting older , married with children and eating habits weight shot up to 328 by april 2009. Ortho told me a Ineeded an ankle multi surgery in march,decided it was time to get the weight off.
Hired a trainer at local golds and still with him for 4 days a week.Down to 275 and getting pretty solid. Sunday ankle started acting up for first time since past march. Long story short MRI results today have me scheduling a fairly extensive surgery with a specialist in real near future. Ortho says absolutely no cardio and am in cam walker.
fairly concerend that I will backslide at this point. I am currently taking jack3d preworkout , protein supps. , and arimatest, along with creatine and betalanine. Have to take ******** to be able to get around now due to ankle pain which is really counterproductive to my endurance , but still getting it done.
I have done 2 cycles of Mdrol , one stacked with P plex (which kind of sucked and mde me cranky) did a 4week round with novadex post cycle(love the stuff and am currently taking arimatest 2 part as my test booster.
My dilemna is , can i keep losing body fat while just weight training? And should I do heavy low rep sets or high rep mid weight stuff that tears up the joints? Trainer is thinking without the cardio might have issues , but am sure someone here has had injuries that prohibited cardio in same way. So looking for a little help
Was doing a mile oon eliptical before and after weights most days and on off days 3 -5 miles and trying to keep a 9 minute mile at fairly heavy settings.
Drinking lotsf water and plan on cutting carbs way back til back on feet. Sorry about the rambling , this caught me off guard cause I was going to schedule surgery at end of march and bam , now its here and no choices.

[kimm4]

Yes, it's a matter of lowering your deficit a little more to make up for the no cardio.

Congrats on your hard work and best of luck!

[bigpapapimp]

Thank you for your responce. Trying to figure some leg routines with no loadbearing on akles to offset some of the cardio. Leaving me with very freakin little options other than abduction and inductions on cable machines. Looks like tuna is gonna be my new best friend til recovered. LMAO

[jerrycarroll]

What she said x2...no deficit equals no fat loss.
Also ya better quit most of the stuff you are taking before your surgery
http://www.articlesbase.com/health-a...ft-205315.html
http://www.helium.com/items/374651-v...cal-procedures
http://www.yourplasticsurgeryguide.c...al-healing.htm

basically, everything should be stopped, and then after your basic healing is done, there are supps you can take to improve healng.
you got a PM

[Most Muscular]

To lose bodyfat you either have to exercise more (cardio), eat less, or both. Since the cardio option is out at this point you are left with eating less. I would suggest cleaning up your diet a bit to lower your calorie intake but do NOT cut back on your protein. Lower your carb and fat intake first.

nuff said...

[bigvin73]

It is possible to get ripped without cardio, I know this is going to start a crazy debate but it is absolutly possible. I was at my uncles house last week he was a very good BBer in the 80s and they never did cardio. He has told me high volume/ rep with very little rest will actually do more fat burning then cardio alone would. There is also a recent study that states weight training actually burns fat longer then cardio so this is not bro science its actual reserched fact. I am not a big fan of cardio (I do it for heart health and cause MM said I should when I asked about it but I use my weight training for actualy fat loss). I started training like my uncle told me to about a week ago and while I have to take my time to build up the endurance for the higher volume, I do feel much fresher working out this way. One more thing do whatever Kimm says with diet all her advice seems to work well(even if I haven't asked her for any myself I try what she says )

[Most Muscular]

It is possible to get ripped without cardio, I know this is going to start a crazy debate but it is absolutly possible. I was at my uncles house last week he was a very good BBer in the 80s and they never did cardio. He has told me high volume/ rep with very little rest will actually do more fat burning then cardio alone would. There is also a recent study that states weight training actually burns fat longer then cardio so this is not bro science its actual reserched fact. I am not a big fan of cardio (I do it for heart health and cause MM said I should when I asked about it but I use my weight training for actualy fat loss). I started training like my uncle told me to about a week ago and while I have to take my time to build up the endurance for the higher volume, I do feel much fresher working out this way. One more thing do whatever Kimm says with diet all her advice seems to work well(even if I haven't asked her for any myself I try what she says )

I don't think this type of cardio is very efficent. You can't get much of a weight training session with a high volume/high rep workout AND keep your heart in a fat burning zone. Instead of getting the best of both worlds I think you would be shorting yourself in both your workout and for cardio. It's not rocket science it is just common sense. All you have to do is sit down and think about it. If you did a workout at a fast enough speed to get your heart rate up (and keep it up) what type of weight do you think you'd be lifting? Sure you'll lose weight but I would bet that a lot of it would be muscle loss. In contest prep I still believe in training the same way that I did any other time of the year to avoid losing any of the muscle mass I strived so hard to put on.

nuff said...

[bigpapapimp]

Planning on stopping all supplements other than protein 3 weeks prior to surgery. Been mixing up cardio between heavy bag and eliptical. usually try to do a quick warmup mile pre workout , then 2 higher level quick miles post workout a few days a week, some weeks get lazy as we all do but when I catch myself I step it up and do some on days off too. Thinking of some supersets to help work within the heart range , but rather than light weight/high reps , gonna do medium to heavy with moderate weights and strip sets to exhaustion to kind of offset lack of cardio. Too much of the high reps and my elbows and shoulders get sketchy and ultimately ends up making slower progress due to working off the pain anyways.
Gonna slow me down a bit , but think it will work out. Percs are kind of killing my pumps , but leaving me with a little more soreness next day or 2 post , and seems to me Im getting a few more sets in , so that may end up not being as bad as originall thought either.
I appreciate the advice immensely.
I am going down to fix a hole in bottom of fib and alower tib/fib fusion as well as cleaning up a mess of scar tissue and arthritis between all the joints from all the ops and original trauma.

[bigvin73]

I don't think this type of cardio is very efficent. You can't get much of a weight training session with a high volume/high rep workout AND keep your heart in a fat burning zone. Instead of getting the best of both worlds I think you would be shorting yourself in both your workout and for cardio. It's not rocket science it is just common sense. All you have to do is sit down and think about it. If you did a workout at a fast enough speed to get your heart rate up (and keep it up) what type of weight do you think you'd be lifting? Sure you'll lose weight but I would bet that a lot of it would be muscle loss. In contest prep I still believe in training the same way that I did any other time of the year to avoid losing any of the muscle mass I strived so hard to put on.

nuff said...

I was not talking about replacing cardio with weights, I was mentioning a diffrent way of training. Most train with the heavy weight 6-10 rep range with 2 to 3 min rest between sets. It is highly likely I did not explaine it right, I was talking doing the normal pyramid training in the 8-12 range with only 1 min rest between sets. Your heart rate stayes at a moderate rate( not cardio high) so you are burning fat, you get an absolute ton of blood into the muscles while doing a lot of damage for growth. What I meant by volume is more exercises per body part. Kind of an old school approach but it worked well for those guys, and until Yates came along with his very low volume approach was pretty much the norm. Cardio is a relativly new thing, BB in the arnold ear did not run on tread mills to cut weight they did it with dialed in diets and hard training and they did not bulk/cut, so I am wondering why now a days everyone feels this is the only way to achieve good results. Personally I would think you would retain much more muscle in a steady gain then diet down for comp approach then you would from the bulk/cut approach. MM I take most of your posts as almost bible bro but on this one I have to disagree(good chance I am wrong because you have accomplished far more then I have but then again maybe my theory/approach is just different not wrong.)

[ejthomp]

There is only one thing that is going to get you where you want to be..... and you are ignoring the pink elephant in the room.....

WHAT IS YOUR DIET?

If you don't have strict control over the number of calories you are consuming, everything else is a waste of time.

How many calories are you consuming per day? How many are you planning to consume once you can't do any cardio?

[ntrllftr]

Kind of an old school approach but it worked well for those guys, and until Yates came along with his very low volume approach was pretty much the norm. Cardio is a relativly new thing, BB in the arnold ear did not run on tread mills to cut weight they did it with dialed in diets and hard training and they did not bulk/cut, so I am wondering why now a days everyone feels this is the only way to achieve good results.

Bottom line is conditioning. Especially when you are talking about bb. Take a look at the old school competitors to the modern day. Even most amature level competitors get way more shredded than the "Arnold era" competitors. The body will get down to a certain limit with diet alone. When taking it to the next level of losing weight is when cardio is mainly used.

I can maintain weight easily on diet alone without gaining weight, BUT...
I have a very hard time losing any weight without cardio.
This is because when I do lose weight by diet alone.....
I do not take in enough nutrients for the body to maintain strength/muscle.
This is my personal findings.

[Most Muscular]

Bottom line is conditioning. Especially when you are talking about bb. Take a look at the old school competitors to the modern day. Even most amature level competitors get way more shredded than the "Arnold era" competitors. The body will get down to a certain limit with diet alone. When taking it to the next level of losing weight is when cardio is mainly used.

I can maintain weight easily on diet alone without gaining weight, BUT...
I have a very hard time losing any weight without cardio.
This is because when I do lose weight by diet alone.....
I do not take in enough nutrients for the body to maintain strength/muscle.
This is my personal findings.

I agree. The Arnold era bodybuilder were not cut much at all. If they were they did very well. Look at Frank Zane who is a small guy but he dialed it in and BEAT Arnold at the Olympia... the only person to do so. He wasn't bigger than Arnold he was just leaner.

I would agree with bigvin73 that you could retain a lot of muscle mass if you didn't bulk up too much and only had to cut down a bit but that wasn't what the OP was asking I don't think. He says he is getting "pretty solid"... that is subjective and we really don't know what type of shape or bodyfat he actually has.

It also depends upon your metabolism. Since everyone is different some can do wonders with very little cardio because they burn calories very easy. Others struggle with losing any bodyfat no matter how hard they try. As a generalized observation I think most people need at least some cardio to get into shape unless they are blessed with a very high metabolism... and if they are they probably have a hard time building muscle mass because their body tends to burn that up too.

I used to start all my contest preps without any cardio and only added it when my bodyfat drops stopped. As I grew older and my metabolism slowed I discovered that was not possible anymore and I had to do cardio nearly every day and even add 2x day cardio sessions near the end to see any results. It is not what I wanted to do but what I had to do.

So many people tend to believe that high reps make your muscles harder and help burn fat. I think this myth came about from that as bodybuilders got nearer to show day and had less bodyfat they could not lift as much. Bodyfat around a muscle surprisingly can help a LOT in lifting heavy weights (look at most powerlifters if you challenge that statement). The bodyfat adds stability to the lift and allows you to lift more. Anyway, as bodybuilders get leaner they tend to lift lighter, not because they want to, but because they just can't support the heavier weights anymore without injury. The lighter weights require more reps to really get anything out of the exercise. People in the gym see this ripped bodybuilders lifting light weights using high reps and "ding, ding" they think they've found the secret to getting ripped. Hey, it they're doing high reps and they look like that it should work for me too!

I had this argument with another older bodybuilder in my old gym that always trained with a high rep/high volume contest prep in the belief that he was getting a cardio session out of his workout. Yes, he got hard dense muscles but I believe it was more of a result of his genetics and his "supplement" use than anything else.

I just don't see your body staying in a fat burning zone during a weight training workout. Yes, high volume training and spending hours in the gym will burn calories, which was very much "old school" type training in Arnolds day but I think today most people have come to realize that the longer you workout the more your body starts falling into over training and more release of cortsol, etc.

More isn't better. Better is better.

nuff said...

[oldsuperman]

I agree. The Arnold era bodybuilder were not cut much at all. If they were they did very well. Look at Frank Zane who is a small guy but he dialed it in and BEAT Arnold at the Olympia... the only person to do so. He wasn't bigger than Arnold he was just leaner.

I would agree with bigvin73 that you could retain a lot of muscle mass if you didn't bulk up too much and only had to cut down a bit but that wasn't what the OP was asking I don't think. He says he is getting "pretty solid"... that is subjective and we really don't know what type of shape or bodyfat he actually has.

It also depends upon your metabolism. Since everyone is different some can do wonders with very little cardio because they burn calories very easy. Others struggle with losing any bodyfat no matter how hard they try. As a generalized observation I think most people need at least some cardio to get into shape unless they are blessed with a very high metabolism... and if they are they probably have a hard time building muscle mass because their body tends to burn that up too.

I used to start all my contest preps without any cardio and only added it when my bodyfat drops stopped. As I grew older and my metabolism slowed I discovered that was not possible anymore and I had to do cardio nearly every day and even add 2x day cardio sessions near the end to see any results. It is not what I wanted to do but what I had to do.

So many people tend to believe that high reps make your muscles harder and help burn fat. I think this myth came about from that as bodybuilders got nearer to show day and had less bodyfat they could not lift as much. Bodyfat around a muscle surprisingly can help a LOT in lifting heavy weights (look at most powerlifters if you challenge that statement). The bodyfat adds stability to the lift and allows you to lift more. Anyway, as bodybuilders get leaner they tend to lift lighter, not because they want to, but because they just can't support the heavier weights anymore without injury. The lighter weights require more reps to really get anything out of the exercise. People in the gym see this ripped bodybuilders lifting light weights using high reps and "ding, ding" they think they've found the secret to getting ripped. Hey, it they're doing high reps and they look like that it should work for me too!

I had this argument with another older bodybuilder in my old gym that always trained with a high rep/high volume contest prep in the belief that he was getting a cardio session out of his workout. Yes, he got hard dense muscles but I believe it was more of a result of his genetics and his "supplement" use than anything else.

I just don't see your body staying in a fat burning zone during a weight training workout. Yes, high volume training and spending hours in the gym will burn calories, which was very much "old school" type training in Arnolds day but I think today most people have come to realize that the longer you workout the more your body starts falling into over training and more release of cortsol, etc.

More isn't better. Better is better.

nuff said...

Nicely said Randy.

[christos_swc]

Trainer is thinking without the cardio might have issues

He's right to be concerned.
Your muscle is only good to the point where your heart and lungs can provide oxygen to it.
Past that it's useless.
This limits your everyday functionality and all the big muscle puts stress on your heart.
I got back into weight lifting because I race karts and couldn't maintain concentration for more than five laps.
After getting much stronger with weights I noticed I had not increased my performance on the track my as much as I would expect, in fact I was making very slow progress.
That was down to the fact that I run out of breath quickly and my muscles would fatigue due to lack of oxygen.
Once I started doing some serious cardio work that's when my performance took off.
I don't know to what extent your ankle is giving you trouble, are you sure you cannot work on elliptical and rowing machines?
Rowing is great cardiovascular exercise and I wouldn't think it would place enough stress on your feet to aggravate your injury.
I have quite a few injuries myself but by letting by body get well used to a weight before I slowly and gradually move on to the next I'm making gains without getting any trouble from my joints.
You don't even have to do that, just find a machine that involves a lot of mid to upper body movement to get that blood flowing and you should be able to get some very good work done.
Combine that with a good diet and you should be able to move forward on both fronts, strengthen that heart and lose weight.
It's not as easy as doing lots and lots of cardio but it doesn't mean it's not doable, just takes more commitment.

[hair_dye]

sorry if this has already been mentioned, but could you do some swimming to increase your cardio?

[jerrycarroll]

sorry if this has already been mentioned, but could you do some swimming to increase your cardio?

good question!
there are many different ways to increase your heart rate and BTW, cardio isn't the only way to get into the fat burning zone. lifting and keeping your rest periods short can keep you in the 60-65% range of your MHR which I think for you is around 125 Bpm more or less. Get one of those heart rate monitors to keep track.
but to get the heart and lung benefits you must to actual cardio and get the heart rate up to around 80% of your MHR. This should be the answer you really need.

[illninofan21]

Why do you need things like Mdrol, arimatest, novadex and Pplex for cutting?

[bigvin73]

I agree. The Arnold era bodybuilder were not cut much at all. If they were they did very well. Look at Frank Zane who is a small guy but he dialed it in and BEAT Arnold at the Olympia... the only person to do so. He wasn't bigger than Arnold he was just leaner.

I would agree with bigvin73 that you could retain a lot of muscle mass if you didn't bulk up too much and only had to cut down a bit but that wasn't what the OP was asking I don't think. He says he is getting "pretty solid"... that is subjective and we really don't know what type of shape or bodyfat he actually has.

It also depends upon your metabolism. Since everyone is different some can do wonders with very little cardio because they burn calories very easy. Others struggle with losing any bodyfat no matter how hard they try. As a generalized observation I think most people need at least some cardio to get into shape unless they are blessed with a very high metabolism... and if they are they probably have a hard time building muscle mass because their body tends to burn that up too.

I used to start all my contest preps without any cardio and only added it when my bodyfat drops stopped. As I grew older and my metabolism slowed I discovered that was not possible anymore and I had to do cardio nearly every day and even add 2x day cardio sessions near the end to see any results. It is not what I wanted to do but what I had to do.

So many people tend to believe that high reps make your muscles harder and help burn fat. I think this myth came about from that as bodybuilders got nearer to show day and had less bodyfat they could not lift as much. Bodyfat around a muscle surprisingly can help a LOT in lifting heavy weights (look at most powerlifters if you challenge that statement). The bodyfat adds stability to the lift and allows you to lift more. Anyway, as bodybuilders get leaner they tend to lift lighter, not because they want to, but because they just can't support the heavier weights anymore without injury. The lighter weights require more reps to really get anything out of the exercise. People in the gym see this ripped bodybuilders lifting light weights using high reps and "ding, ding" they think they've found the secret to getting ripped. Hey, it they're doing high reps and they look like that it should work for me too!

I had this argument with another older bodybuilder in my old gym that always trained with a high rep/high volume contest prep in the belief that he was getting a cardio session out of his workout. Yes, he got hard dense muscles but I believe it was more of a result of his genetics and his "supplement" use than anything else.

I just don't see your body staying in a fat burning zone during a weight training workout. Yes, high volume training and spending hours in the gym will burn calories, which was very much "old school" type training in Arnolds day but I think today most people have come to realize that the longer you workout the more your body starts falling into over training and more release of cortsol, etc.

More isn't better. Better is better.

nuff said...

Thanks for the responce MM, as I said in a previouse post I take your advice as being extreamly sound advice. I agree and was thinking about my responce to your first post and thought it would be in that area of conditioning and you are right, as I said earlier I do cardio because you said to lol. My approach was more towards the OP original post and not thinking he was talking about competative shape more along the lines of getting hard for an average person not a BB comp hard. I also, in my sugar infused semi diabetic coma state of last night, forgot to take into account the "supplements" in use from hard core comp guys in the arnold era. Thanks for the back and forth it is always good for me to get new information and my questions answered even if I did not know I was asking them.

[redweston]

I know every body responds differently, but the cutt that i used for precontest prep included no cardio, did not want to sacrafice any muscle size. Regular type liftin program until last two weeks. The diet consisted of high protein foods, clean carbs, no sugars, no sodium. Very plain eating and of course it was six meals.
Iit was ajusted weekly, based on how i was looking, nothing to do with weight. My BF% dropped 6 %, my body weight dropped 37 #. It's really common sense, fuel the furnace with good quality food and the fat will melt away, and I beleive most everybody can do it if they stick there mind to it.

KeeponpumpinPowerhouse RED !

[bigpapapimp]

I really , really appreciate all the responces and ideas. Being very openminded about it at presesnrt.
The diet is a the big problem for me. Never had to be concerend until theSurgeries about calorie intake except to bulk. Not sure what happened exactly , other than a lot of giving up the spirit and being a drone afterwards. BUT was always a struggle to bulk up prior to becoming a family man. My doctor theorizes that maybe due to multiple surgeries that my body may have produced HGH during the recovery process cause I basically gained 30 pounds first go around at 25 , which I carried and added a few pounds to over the next 11 years . In 06 I was at 245 -250 and had me a belly , when i bit the concrete again. Gained a total of 50+ pounds over next 3 years with 4 surgeries spread out over that time period. So I went form a 180 -200 pound up until 95 to a 300+ guy , which was kind of a biatch. BUT not loking at it from a total disadvantage since my body is used to the extra weight , figured take adavantage of it and shoot for a 240-250 day to day weight.
Learning the diet as i go and honestly it has been become quite easy to cut that majority of carbs and sugars and fat. Just a life readjustment. Gave up all sodas and such months ago and am amazed still at the benefits of drinking adaequate water.
Not training for a contest at all , just for my active lifestyle. My biggest problem with diet at current is eating enough a day. Trainer pounds that at me religiously and I see the results when I abide by it.I do about 2000 -2500 calories a day. My second biggest problem is getting enough protein , but the hydro whey and morph are easy to carry in truck and slip in during daytime.
The ankle is getting somewhat better now , but ortho says no loadbearing cardio and no load bearing legs. BUT since there is pretty much no way out of the surgery this time , am gonna ease back into it until surgery. I am currently in a cam walker boot , but with an ankle brace I can get around for a couple hours now. I just have to wear some sort of shoe cause without it aggravates ankle pretty quick. Kinf of looking at it as waht can it hurt at this point just got to convince my trainer of that, cause i hired him to keep me from injuring myself and quitting but i think now thats a moot point.
As far as the supplements go , heck its just kind of a curiosity thing to see what works and what dont and which combination works well for me. I switch up supplements about every 2 months cause my body seems to adjust rather quickly to any new supplement after 4-6 weeks and stop feeling the rush. I do research them prior to taking them first. AND I always take liver health and a cycle assist. I am really starting to think that my testosterone lecels are low due to the inactivity while recovering and gonna have that checked over the winter by my General practiotener. And also look for a sports doctor in this area.
I am not looking at this as losing weight , i am looking at this as the next stage of my life and how I want to live it. So taking my time losing the weight rather than just jumping into crash diets and lots of cardio , doing a slow controlled fat loss and muscle building regiment , so I dot crash and burn . want to do this rest of life to benefit other activities I am passionate about.
The surgery is just a bump in road that in the big picture i will benefit from.
Once again , sorry for rambling , just trying to clarify things a bit. I am not a kid and aint an old guy yet and with this life change , hope to never be an old guy!

[Theoculese]

Try extensive shadow boxing. Sitting if need be. Just get your time in and keep your heart rate up. Not a perfect solution but a solution nonetheless.

[Getsum]

Strong bump!

[azstrengthcoach]

You don't really need to cardio. However the highest caloric intake you can lose weight at will give you the best results

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_..._ultimate_body

[highiso]

old thread is old

[ArchAngel'73]

Try extensive shadow boxing. Sitting if need be. Just get your time in and keep your heart rate up. Not a perfect solution but a solution nonetheless.

I am hoping that after nearly four years after posting this the OP has come up with SOME solution by now.

[Get-n-fit]

OP only has 8 posts.....maybe he's been waiting for the answer! lol