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  1. #1
    Registered User Jedwab's Avatar
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    Confused - food/macrs/eating exercise kcals etc - sorry long thread

    Ok....dont want to make this post to long, although I think it may be inevitable . I realize its a bit much to take in and therefore would be grateful to anyone who actually takes the time reading it and can help me with my questions. Having been a lifetime yo-yo dieter and always a bit up and down with exercise i am determined not to go back there. I have been training properly since August, and now that my "newbie gains" and the initial fat loss/weight loss have slowed down I feel a little mentally demotivated. I want things to happen but they have slowed down massively and I'm just a little frustrated but also a touch confused. I REALLY just want to do this right and the plethora of information out there is doing my head in a little.

    Quick summary - last couple of weeks ( maybe a little less) I have eat at maintenance ( or what i thought was maintenance anyway - around 2100 kcals a day) due to coming to a plateau, illness and several social stuff I had on. Anyway, all that is over now, I put on about 4lbs which has pissed me off no end since i cant see how this can happen at "maintenance" but obviously I have been working things out wrong. So decided to try and work things out properly and started with this thread as I have see it recommended several times http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703921.

    Before I elaborate, my bf is now 21% and this morning i weighed in this morning at 154.4. Im 5"6. Target is 18% bf, ideally I would like to be around 146lbs. My training will consist of 3 (max 4) gym sessions pw, hour at a time, weights only (no cardio), one military bootcamp crossfit style class, and a 2 hour gymnastics class. So min 5 days, max 6. One or 2 rest days.

    1.So using above recommended method and the choices below

    using the Katch-McArdle formula
    BMR = 370 + (21.6 x 55.3) = 1565

    Then using the Activity factor ( i went for this - im assuming thats right - I'm a photographer so normally shooting during the day, but in the evenings can often sit on my arse in front of the computer editing for 6-8 hours at a time)

    1.5-1.6 = Moderately Active (Moderately daily Activity & Moderate exercise 3-5 days a week)

    using 1.5 , that makes my maintenance cals 2348.

    Ok....I can cope with that easily, and taking off 20% this means I should be eating 1878 kcals, which is perfectly doable.

    My question is, do I then also eat my exercise calories? Or have they already been taken into account when getting to this figure i.e the 1.5 multiplier? I'm thinking u must eat your exercise calories, the whole point being that 1878 is already at a deficit, so if on that day i do 500 kcals at the gym and don't eat them, my net will be 1378 which isn't enough?

    The macros I think I'm cool with...I always went for the low carb/high protein option ( only because it agrees with me better), but if any of you think I'm doing this wrong please do enlighten me - I would really appreciate any guidance as I want to do this 100% right.

    PROTEIN - STRENGTH training -> 1.4 to 2g per KG bodyweight (about .6 / pound) = at 70kg i went for the "2" multiplier, making protein requirement 140g
    FAT - Average or low bodyfat: 1 - 2g fat/ kg body weight [between 0.40 - 1g total weight/ pounds] = i went for halfway "1.6" multiplier so 112g
    CARBS - i went for

    carb cals = 1878 - ([140 x 4] + [112x 9])= 1878 - (560 +1008) = 1878 -1568 = 310
    carb grams = 310/ 4 = 77 g

    So according to above my macros should be

    PROTEIN 140G
    FAT 112G
    CARBS 77G

    Based on 1878 kcals a day.

    Now if the answer to my question re eating exercise calories is a yes, do those macros also increase in proportion? Im assuming they do, BUT having always tried to have kept to around 75G a day for carbs, it makes me uncomfortable to go much over (although I have been this year now and again). For the last 2 weeks I had upped my carbs naturally as have been eating more and I don't like the effects - I feel more bloated, more tired and sleepy, have trapped wind(not that u really wanted to know that!) but generally not a fan of a lot of carbs just from knowing my body. I guess what I am asking re the carbs - I know there is point where ketosis hits - but i reckon that's if i go way below ( I did the anabolic diet in the past and stuck to the 25g a day for 12 days and then carb up weekends but decided not to pursue it as couldn't cope with the carb up weekends), and then there is a point where it has an adverse effect of me (I'd say 120g +). So, assuming I do need to eat my exercise calories can i just adjust the macros slightly differently, i.e up my carbs to no more than 100g or even leave them at 75g and just eat more fat/protein instead? Or is it essential that it all gets increased proportionately?

    Also, are carbs calculated net of the fibre? Ive never taken the fibre off before , but if I have eaten say 80g of carbs and 15g fibre does that mean that I've actually only eaten 65g carbs?

    OK...so why am I confused?

    2.MFP

    Well . I have been using MFP to record what I eat but MFP uses a different formula. So based on my current stats, according to MFP, my maintenance calories are 1890. Great - not much different to the above. MFP will then ask you how much you want to lose - so based on a simple 1lb a week, it subtracts 500kcals, making my target calories 1390. You are then advised to eat your exercise calories , so if i then go to thy gym and burn 500 i need to eat that extra 500, so the net is still 1390. I struggle to keep to 1390 on my rest days, I have to say.

    The reason that I am confused is that obviously this is a LOT lower than 1878 that i worked out at the top . Which then makes me think that with the Katch-McArdle formula, the 1878 ( 20% deficit to my BMR) figure is worked out already assuming you have done the 3-5 times week exercise and you in fact shouldn't be eating the exercise calories. Im also confused as the Katch-McArdle formula says my maintenance before deficit is 2348 and MFP says 1890. Now I could have justified this in my head if mfp DIDNT ask the question about how active you are, but it does - and i also selected "moderate, 3-5 times a week". So why the huge difference???

    3.Fit2fat radio

    Anyway, after much searching around the web I came across this http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/ and I *think* it made sense ( only it did leave me even more confused)
    So, I used their online calculators - first the BMR

    I then used the goal body weight calculator http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/ibw/ and according to this i should be aiming for 149lbs not 146 ( at least to get to the 18% bf), this si assuming i simply retain my LBM of 122lbs.
    But whatever, I would still like to aim for 146 simply because it then mentally gives me a buffer zone - i.e if i have a bad few days all i want to do is step on the scale and still be under 150 ( its just demotivating otherwise)

    So then i used this http://www.fat2fitradio.com/tools/bmr/ and put in 146 as my target weight. It worked out my BMR at 1568 so that's great , pretty much the same as using the same formula.

    So, what I really like about the way they explain this is this sentence

    "Based on how much activity you do on an average day, the calories in the right column will be the number of calories that you will be able to eat at your goal weight. If you start eating those calories right now (eating like the thinner you), you will eventually become that thinner person. Based on how much activity you do on an average day, the calories in the right column will be the number of calories that you will be able to eat at your goal weight. If you start eating those calories right now (eating like the thinner you), you will eventually become that thinner person"

    Let me explain why - like i said i have always been a yo yo dieter - cutting calories, losing weight, then going back to normal eating and putting it back on. The concept of just eating NOW what i should be eating to MAINTAIN my TARGET goal weight sounds very appealing - as it means that when I GET THERE, there is no need for a calorie adjustment. This is great as i find that as soon as i up my calories like i did for the last couple of weeks, i put on weight. I dont want that hanging over my head, so that just sounds really good to me. But here comes the confusion again - this quotes my maintenance as 2230 based on moderate activity, once I am at my GOAL weight of 146 lbs. That sounds great to be honest, Id probably struggle to eat that but happily would. Im assuming that already takes exercise calories into account? Or not?

    But if I now ate at 2230, I KNOW would put on weight because I have done over the last 2 weeks, so this cannot work.

    It then has this sentence "As you get closer to your goal weight, your weight loss will start to slow down. It is OK to eat a few hundred calories less per day (200-300) to speed up your weight loss at this point"

    Ok, I get it , but EVENTUALLY i will want to eat maintenance. Does that mean as soon as i do, the lbs will come back on?

    So....what I would really LOVE to know is how many calories should I actually be eating to lose 1lb a week, should i be eating my exercise kcals and how do u make sure that once you are ate your target weight and up your food to maintenance you then don't put it all back on?

    I realize that to a lot of you weight is irrelevant, and to be honest if got to 18% bf and didnt quite reach 146lbs it wouldn't be a MAJOR drama - i just want to look and feel good. But I need a goal or i will go off track otherwise - been there before, although never been quite as dedicated as this time. I am fairly technical person and like to know exactly what I am doing but at the moment it's all of bit of a headfc*k so if anyone can please shed some light on this i would be very grateful.

    And if you are still reading this and are still awake, props to you. and thanks in advance!

    P.S in regards to my diet my MFP is public so feel free to look - I eat a lot of variety of stuff and sometimes wonder if i just eat the wrong things? I *think* I ok as try to eat a lot of meat/veg/nuts and limit fruit/dairy but do always wonder if maybe I have been eating a bit too much fat ( even though its good fats), as so far 50-60% of my intake has been from fat. This year has been a little sketchy in places, and I know myself - it means because i dont REALLY know what I am doing I am losing interest, which is just not good. So need to sort myself out pronto as I would hate to waste all the hard work Ive put in and go back to being a yo yo type person, but to do this i need to set myself a clear goal and start seeing results again.

    Typical food consumed at maintenance calories
    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/dia...ate=2013-01-13

    p.s. 2. Quick training overview -
    I train with a PT and we vary what I do ever 3 weeks....we've done the 6/12/25 , the Hepburn method, drop sets and loads of other stuff but basically i train with him twice a week, maybe 3. My programme is changing again from today. I have asked him to include the major things like squats/deadlifts/bench but also incorporate GHR's and some ab stuff. My aim is to get stronger as taking part in Tough Mudder at the start of June and want to feel ready. Im doing my own pull up programme using a book and aiming for 15-20 wide grip by the time I get to TM. At the moment I can do bench 45 kg (100lbs)5 sets of 3, deadlift 70kg ( 154lbs) so my body weight 5 reps 4 sets, squat I'm not sure as I haven't done it for a while but when i last did it it was around 75kg (165lbs) so just over my body weight and i think it was only 3 reps, leg press 185kg(410lbs) 12 reps 3 sets, pull ups 6 neutral grip unassisted 3 sets, press ups 40 ( 4 sets)

    I have no idea how much of this info is useful, feel free to ask if i have missed anything. Thanks again.
    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/jedwab1976

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  2. #2
    Registered User DougHolland's Avatar
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    I am no diet expert but I have a feeling of what the response will be as an answer. Why? Because they always give me the same answer.

    If your not losing weight at your current calories, back them down 250 cal a day for 2 weeks. If still not losing a pound a week, back them down another 250 cals a day for two weeks.

    I hate this answer just as much as you do. It stinks that it can take months to figure out what in the world your body is doing. Then, factor in stress, water bloat, missed training sessions.

    I guess thats why I respect BB's and the effort they must put in to get down to single digit.
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  3. #3
    Bootless Errand ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    My question is, do I then also eat my exercise calories?
    No




    Or have they already been taken into account when getting to this figure i.e the 1.5 multiplier?
    They're already accounted for by use of the activity multiplier.






    As far as macros are concerned as long as you take in the minimums (1 gram of protein and a half-gram of fat per pound of body weight), you can eat as many or as few carbs as you prefer. If you plan to eat less carbs, then, of course, you'll need to eat more protein and/or fat to make up the calorie difference.













    Ok, I get it , but EVENTUALLY i will want to eat maintenance. Does that mean as soon as i do, the lbs will come back on?
    Maintenance , by definition, is eating to a calorie balance where your body weight remains the same. In order to gain weight, you'd have to eat at a calorie surplus.





    So....what I would really LOVE to know is how many calories should I actually be eating to lose 1lb a week....
    A weighed/measured/tracked calorie deficit of 500 calories/day will provide a weight loss of approximately 1 pound per week.

    But if you plan to run such a relatively large deficit (large for someone your size and gender), be prepared to train as hard and heavy as you possibly are able if you plan to retain as much of your muscle mass as possible.
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  4. #4
    Registered User Jedwab's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by DougHolland View Post
    I am no diet expert but I have a feeling of what the response will be as an answer. Why? Because they always give me the same answer.

    If your not losing weight at your current calories, back them down 250 cal a day for 2 weeks. If still not losing a pound a week, back them down another 250 cals a day for two weeks.

    I hate this answer just as much as you do. It stinks that it can take months to figure out what in the world your body is doing. Then, factor in stress, water bloat, missed training sessions.

    I guess thats why I respect BB's and the effort they must put in to get down to single digit.
    Thanks for the answer Doug....but which figure do you suggest that I cut the 250 off? That's what confuses me! The staring point with the formula + fat2fit cal is so different to MFP I have no clue which is correct. I think the main thing that I have ommited in my post above is my sleeping patterns - they are not great. I rarely go to bed before 2am, sometimes 3 or 4 and i get on average 6 hours sleep. I wonder if that affects things.
    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/jedwab1976

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  5. #5
    Registered User Jedwab's Avatar
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    Thanks for taking the time Ironwill....but (of course) I have more Q's!

    =ironwill2008;1024132443]No
    They're already accounted for by use of the activity multiplier.
    Is that using the first formula, the BB.com link? Because if that was using MFP formula, then they quote my maintenance as 1890, 500 deficit makes it 1390. If I do a leg sesh and burn 450 and dont eat it back , my net ends up being under 1000 which im sure isnt right?


    As far as macros are concerned as long as you take in the minimums (1 gram of protein and a half-gram of fat per pound of body weight), you can eat as many or as few carbs as you prefer. If you plan to eat less carbs, then, of course, you'll need to eat more protein and/or fat to make up the calorie difference.
    Ok so my diet could be 70% fat or and it wouldn't make any difference at all?
    Maintenance , by definition, is eating to a calorie balance where your body weight remains the same. In order to gain weight, you'd have to eat at a calorie surplus.
    Im struggling to understand what is my maintenance thats the problem


    A weighed/measured/tracked calorie deficit of 500 calories/day will provide a weight loss of approximately 1 pound per week.But if you plan to run such a relatively large deficit (large for someone your size and gender), be prepared to train as hard and heavy as you possibly are able if you plan to retain as much of your muscle mass as possible.
    Ok so I have been doing the 500 deficit thing or maybe slightly less but my weight just plateau'd, hence upping my calories recently to "reset" and start again. But the 500 deficit - what figure is that coming off, is the 1890 that MFP quotes or the 2348 ? And is this link incorrect as this says dont do 500, do 10-20%? http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703921.

    Also when you say train hard and heavy - as in lifting heavy? Im happy with that, but as I have only been doing 6 months my strength still has a way to - I have absolutely no idea whether what I m lifting now is "heavy" but when i look at some of the ladies numbers on this forum I'm pretty amazed they can lift that much - so obviously its going to take me time to get stronger and lift heavier - im sure the ability is there, im hardly weak and feeble . I always train hard and give 110% so thats not a problem. But I would hate to be hungry - do I need to be to get where i want to be?

    If the honest answer is "yes , deal with it to drop that weight u have to work your arse off and REALLY cut your calories", then fine, i will do it. BUT wherever i look people are being told they dont eat enough and i really dont want to make that mistake. Id rather train more so i can eat more - i could make my sessions at the gym 90 mins - so after an hours weights i could add 30 mins of something else, is that something that could work? But then if im not meant to be eating my exercise calories ill just be more hungry...I really dont like being hungry
    Last edited by Jedwab; 02-11-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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    Registered User FitnessFan76's Avatar
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    I don't blame you for being confused, OP!
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    Keep it simple and remember those things are estimates only. Try slowly backing down the calories until you find the sweet spot. I also always use the lowest activity level (regardless of what I do in the gym/cardio).
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    Originally Posted by FitnessFan76 View Post
    I don't blame you for being confused, OP!
    1. Use calculated Katch-Mcardle and pick an activity multiplier. The multiplayer covers exercise.

    2. Adjust up or down 100-200 calories every few weeks as needed based on mirror and scale to meet goals.

    3. Be patient, it takes a little time to work it out and it is a moving target, that is TDEE over time.

    4. Eat minimums of fat .4-.45g per pound and protein 1g per pound. Compose the rest of your calories from your choice of fats, carbohydrate, protein. Personal preference here.

    It is not complicated. A blunt instrument such as myself can hadle it. Want a perfect calculation? You have to put in the time tracking and fiddling until it is dialed in.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981
    Last edited by EjnarKolinkar; 02-11-2013 at 10:49 AM.
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    Is that using the first formula, the BB.com link?
    Yes; Katch-McArdle. Of all the estimators, that one will get you the best starting point from which to begin since it takes your body fat % into consideration. Pay no attention to anything else.



    You're making all of this far more complicated that it needs to be.

    Figure a simple baseline of calories and macros, and then just stick to it for 3-4 weeks and see where you're at; anything more than that is only unnecessarily confusing you.



    Also when you say train hard and heavy - as in lifting heavy?
    Yes, but it's a relative term, and based only on what you can lift with good form.







    But I would hate to be hungry - do I need to be to get where i want to be?
    Again, figure your maintenance calorie level using K-M, subtract 10 to 20% of that figure to create a deficit. Fill your daily calories with 1 gram/protein per pound of body weight and 1/2 gram of fat per pound of body weight. Fill the remainder of your daily calorie requirement with carbs, more fat, more protein, or any combination of the three that you like.

    Weigh/measure/track your portions for 3-4 weeks to insure accuracy (guesswork won't do here), and then see where you're at. Make any required adjustments at that time.
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    Registered User Jedwab's Avatar
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    Thanks for your replies . What I am trying to do is UNDERSTAND why the big differences between some formulas as I like to know what I'm doing and why, I guess I'm a control freak...I like to know things. Ill go with the first calculation with a 20% deficit and see what happens...
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    Thanks for your replies . What I am trying to do is UNDERSTAND why the big differences between some formulas as I like to know what I'm doing and why, I guess I'm a control freak...I like to know things. Ill go with the first calculation with a 20% deficit and see what happens...
    JMO, MFP formula is junk, so are many others. It's an estimator, it's not going to be perfect. But some formulas are very generalized, others like Katch-Mcardle attempt to take lean mass into account as Ironwill said.
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    What I am trying to do is UNDERSTAND why the big differences between some formulas ..
    Some base their estimates on simple body weight, and some on lean mass.


    Something esle that's already been pointed out, but worth repeating, is that the calorie estimates from any of the formulas are exactly that--estimates, and nothing more. They provide you a place from which to form a baseline.

    It's still up to you to weigh/measure/track your portions faithfully for several weeks until your weight gain or loss (depending on your goal) stabilizes and you can evaluate whether or not to eat a little more or a little less.
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Yes; Katch-McArdle. Of all the estimators, that one will get you the best starting point from which to begin since it takes your body fat % into consideration. Pay no attention to anything else.



    You're making all of this far more complicated that it needs to be.

    Figure a simple baseline of calories and macros, and then just stick to it for 3-4 weeks and see where you're at; anything more than that is only unnecessarily confusing you.


    snip...


    Again, figure your maintenance calorie level using K-M, subtract 10 to 20% of that figure to create a deficit. Fill your daily calories with 1 gram/protein per pound of body weight and 1/2 gram of fat per pound of body weight. Fill the remainder of your daily calorie requirement with carbs, more fat, more protein, or any combination of the three that you like.

    Weigh/measure/track your portions for 3-4 weeks to insure accuracy (guesswork won't do here), and then see where you're at. Make any required adjustments at that time.
    This is it, IMO. It's basically the process I've been going through for the past weeks and it will work as far as I can tell. Only difference is that instead of starting in a deficit, I just went off a theoretical TDEE and tracked to the point that my weight was stable given a consistent activity level and calorie and macro consumption. Now I'm starting the process of adjusting down to achieve some weight loss, but I'm not in a hurry. I'm dropping a few hundred and will run that for a few weeks, observe results and adjust from there. All the while keeping my activity and workout levels roughly constant.

    IMO, I think in the long run, I'll have a much better understanding of how my body responds by tracking this over time and making smaller adjustments with a long enough period of time to judge the results of these adjustments, than by making big adjustments of multiple variables each week to try to get results faster. It may take me a bit longer to achieve the body composition goals I'm looking for, but I think the patient approach will lead to better results in the long run. I'm no expert though, since I'm obviously just doing this now, but it makes sense to me and seems to be what a lot of folks here think. I'm just listening now.
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    Originally Posted by dunemonkey View Post
    This is it, IMO. It's basically the process I've been going through for the past weeks and it will work as far as I can tell. Only difference is that instead of starting in a deficit, I just went off a theoretical TDEE and tracked to the point that my weight was stable given a consistent activity level and calorie and macro consumption. Now I'm starting the process of adjusting down to achieve some weight loss, but I'm not in a hurry. I'm dropping a few hundred and will run that for a few weeks, observe results and adjust from there. All the while keeping my activity and workout levels roughly constant.

    IMO, I think in the long run, I'll have a much better understanding of how my body responds by tracking this over time and making smaller adjustments with a long enough period of time to judge the results of these adjustments, than by making big adjustments of multiple variables each week to try to get results faster. It may take me a bit longer to achieve the body composition goals I'm looking for, but I think the patient approach will lead to better results in the long run. I'm no expert though, since I'm obviously just doing this now, but it makes sense to me and seems to be what a lot of folks here think. I'm just listening now.
    FWIW, you're right on the money here.
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    1) You look good So keep up the good work...
    2) I noticed some caffeine in your diet... stims like nic/caffeine can increase RMR by somewhere 5-9% (off top of my head).
    3) I'm in a similar situation... I can never get to a nice maintence level.
    4) Activity factor depends on who you listen to... BB.com suggests it's what you do outside the gym and that your workouts won't add that much. I've just had more luck calculating calories as sedentary (my life) + gym calories than just a 1.5 multiplier as I workout a ton.
    5) I tend to starve myself and when I drop carbs too much then eat some I feel bloated like you mentioned. I just massively upped my carbs and feel better and am getting better results. I'm wondering if your metabolism has taken a beating by long, hard training and perpetually being under-calories (until recently). I have a yo-yo mentality too and when I cut too hard it seems a bit of extra calories turn to fat like lightning. If carbs aren't digesting with your massive training I would suggest it may be a big metabolic hit. Tom Venuto had a nice article about one of his clients who thrashed their metabolism with yo yo dieting and took twice as long to lose the weight. You may want to add some planned re-feeds into your diet.
    6) I also found that when I was training too hard and cutting too much my body would stress out and I had a ton of water weight. Maybe you just gained water from the excess carbs? Carbs store water...
    7) Maybe replace some protein with more carbs or more fat?
    8) I'm not sure how you're working snacks... Are you starving the crap out of yourself? Your lunch is 65 calories... Your snacks are really low calories as well... That looks like me ... I tried to flex my diet to my lifestyle and would go through long periods with too low calories. I didn't get hungry but it thrashed the s%%%% out of my metabolism.

    Just some thoughts to consider... You look good though GL!
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    This is it, IMO. It's basically the process I've been going through for the past weeks and it will work as far as I can tell. Only difference is that instead of starting in a deficit, I just went off a theoretical TDEE and tracked to the point that my weight was stable given a consistent activity level and calorie and macro consumption. Now I'm starting the process of adjusting down to achieve some weight loss, but I'm not in a hurry. I'm dropping a few hundred and will run that for a few weeks, observe results and adjust from there. All the while keeping my activity and workout levels roughly constant.

    IMO, I think in the long run, I'll have a much better understanding of how my body responds by tracking this over time and making smaller adjustments with a long enough period of time to judge the results of these adjustments, than by making big adjustments of multiple variables each week to try to get results faster. It may take me a bit longer to achieve the body composition goals I'm looking for, but I think the patient approach will lead to better results in the long run. I'm no expert though, since I'm obviously just doing this now, but it makes sense to me and seems to be what a lot of folks here think. I'm just listening now.
    You know you just wrote down what i guess i knew in my head....I think by nature I'm just not a patient person, and after the instant gratification of losing over 10% bf and the initial weightloss it is only natural that things slow down. I just have these moments of feeling panicky where in my head I think that having an "off " day food or training wise will mean I just go back to straight where I started. I'm still at a stage when I'm pleasantly surprised when I look in the mirror in the morning as I keep forgetting that I'm no longer what I considered a " a bit fat". I need to embrace the fact that this is me now, and I if want to hone things further I will HAVE to be patient. The control thing...it's just panic I think, that unless I do things *just* the right way and *exactly* how they should be done, it will all go to pot...

    Thanks for the therapy lol ....will will try my best not be in such a hurry.


    1) You look good So keep up the good work...
    2) I noticed some caffeine in your diet... stims like nic/caffeine can increase RMR by somewhere 5-9% (off top of my head).
    3) I'm in a similar situation... I can never get to a nice maintence level.
    4) Activity factor depends on who you listen to... BB.com suggests it's what you do outside the gym and that your workouts won't add that much. I've just had more luck calculating calories as sedentary (my life) + gym calories than just a 1.5 multiplier as I workout a ton.
    5) I tend to starve myself and when I drop carbs too much then eat some I feel bloated like you mentioned. I just massively upped my carbs and feel better and am getting better results. I'm wondering if your metabolism has taken a beating by long, hard training and perpetually being under-calories (until recently). I have a yo-yo mentality too and when I cut too hard it seems a bit of extra calories turn to fat like lightning. If carbs aren't digesting with your massive training I would suggest it may be a big metabolic hit. Tom Venuto had a nice article about one of his clients who thrashed their metabolism with yo yo dieting and took twice as long to lose the weight. You may want to add some planned re-feeds into your diet.
    6) I also found that when I was training too hard and cutting too much my body would stress out and I had a ton of water weight. Maybe you just gained water from the excess carbs? Carbs store water...
    7) Maybe replace some protein with more carbs or more fat?
    8) I'm not sure how you're working snacks... Are you starving the crap out of yourself? Your lunch is 65 calories... Your snacks are really low calories as well... That looks like me ... I tried to flex my diet to my lifestyle and would go through long periods with too low calories. I didn't get hungry but it thrashed the s%%%% out of my metabolism.
    1) thanks
    2) yup i have 2 cups of coffee on an average day....is it better not too? Im also addicted to having it with cream instead of milk ( since doing teh anabolic diet which recommends this).....which leads me to another question - how much dairy is generally recommended?
    4) This is the thing i cant get my head round - when i asked my friend what level she would have chosen she went fro "moderate" as well and i reckon what she does burns half the calories I do , workouts are different for everyone? So surely it would make more sense to take your BMR and instead of using the activity multiplier just add your workout calories and eat that + your BMR?
    5) I have never been under calories -whatever happens I dont think i've taken on less than 1400kcals a day , rest days included....I eat like a horse (or at least it feels like i eat a lot!)
    7) I have considered this but after the last couple of weeks no thanks lol - carbs have a really crap effect on me
    8) Im never starving - that particular day I was in a long photoshoot ( 6 hours - i shoot newborns) so only got a chance to grab a handful of nuts in between hence the low cals at lunch - as you can see i made up for it with the snacks though. Im a proper grazer....

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, i appreciate it!
    Last edited by Jedwab; 02-11-2013 at 01:29 PM.
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    Unless you're chopping down trees or shunting things around as part of your daily schedule then you're unlikely to be moderately active. 6-12 hours workout time out of 112 waking hours is light activity.

    After that it's not really an exact science. These formula are constructed as models extrapolated from collected data points. They're good indicators but never going to be totally accurate for an individual.
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    You know you just wrote down what i guess i knew in my head....I think by nature I'm just not a patient person, and after the instant gratification of losing over 10% bf and the initial weightloss it is only natural that things slow down. I just have these moments of feeling panicky where in my head I think that having an "off " day food or training wise will mean I just go back to straight where I started. I'm still at a stage when I'm pleasantly surprised when I look in the mirror in the morning as I keep forgetting that I'm no longer what I considered a " a bit fat". I need to embrace the fact that this is me now, and I if want to hone things further I will HAVE to be patient. The control thing...it's just panic I think, that unless I do things *just* the right way and *exactly* how they should be done, it will all go to pot...

    Thanks for the therapy lol ....will will try my best not be in such a hurry.

    Ha! Yeah, I've had patience issues on many things like this in the past as well. Maybe it’s just that I’m getting older, but I’m starting to see the value in consistency over time vs. sprinting and pausing, sprinting and pausing. I used to do the same thing with weight training (and life...). I’d (for whatever excuse) get out of the gym for months at a time and then over-train myself to death trying to get back where I was in a shorter time than metabolically possible. The result was either stagnation from over training, burnout or injury. Next thing you know, I’d be out of the gym for a couple more months. Now, I train just as hard on average, but I never let myself have gaps like that and conversely try to get the right intensity/recovery balance so I can progress without overtraining, burnout or injury. You may be able to argue whether or not slow wins the race, but when it comes to body composition, I think it’s hard to argue that steady doesn’t. That’s what I’m going for anyway. The good news is, you’ve already made some great progress and are in pretty good shape. There’s no reason to have to rush for the rest. It’s all fine tuning from here. Steady as she goes.
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    Ok have sat down today re read everything and re digested and decided to go for the following approach

    target calories on rest day 1568 ( basically my BMR)
    target calories on exercise days BMR + will eat exercise calories

    Split

    35% protein (137g) so just over 1 times my LMB of 122
    45% fat (78g) - this will be a challenge as im normally at about 100-110
    20% carbs ( 78g) - because I just feel better on a low carb way of eating

    If I am way of the mark , feel free to say ( anyone), but planning to stick with this + 5 workout/2 rest days strictly for 4 weeks and see what happens.

    I could have done this the other way i.e BMR ( 1568) times by 1.3 multiplier = 2038 and not eat my exercise calories. But then I would also be eating that on rest days therefore slowing down weight loss and also its less incentive for me mentally.

    But there is one thing that worries me which is

    If I burned 2500 kcals ( 500 per workout on average) assuming 5 workouts, decided NOT to eat the calories but just stick to 2038 every day, my net weekly intake would be 2038 times 7, so 14266 minus 2500, i.e net 11766 divided my 7 that's 1680 average per day

    Doing the same using just the BMR (without activity multiplier but eating exercise calories instead) my total intake would be 1568 times 7 so 10976 + 2500 assuming I eat my exercise calories , so 13476 ( 1710 more than the above) and an average of 1925 a day

    Typing that has messed with my head actually...back to my piece of paper...
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    Ok have sat down today re read everything and re digested and decided to go for the following approach

    target calories on rest day 1568 ( basically my BMR)
    target calories on exercise days BMR + will eat exercise calories

    Split

    35% protein (137g) so just over 1 times my LMB of 122
    45% fat (78g) - this will be a challenge as im normally at about 100-110
    20% carbs ( 78g) - because I just feel better on a low carb way of eating

    If I am way of the mark , feel free to say ( anyone), but planning to stick with this + 5 workout/2 rest days strictly for 4 weeks and see what happens.

    I could have done this the other way i.e BMR ( 1568) times by 1.3 multiplier = 2038 and not eat my exercise calories. But then I would also be eating that on rest days therefore slowing down weight loss and also its less incentive for me mentally.

    But there is one thing that worries me which is

    If I burned 2500 kcals ( 500 per workout on average) assuming 5 workouts, decided NOT to eat the calories but just stick to 2038 every day, my net weekly intake would be 2038 times 7, so 14266 minus 2500, i.e net 11766 divided my 7 that's 1680 average per day

    Doing the same using just the BMR (without activity multiplier but eating exercise calories instead) my total intake would be 1568 times 7 so 10976 + 2500 assuming I eat my exercise calories , so 13476 ( 1710 more than the above) and an average of 1925 a day

    Typing that has messed with my head actually...back to my piece of paper...
    Lol! Sorry, but you just remind me of me. I'm an excel maniac if I get on a tear. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I don't like the idea of "buying" calories with excercise. If I do, I start trying to do mental acrobatics on the fly of "Oh, I can eat this much more if I do an extra hour of cardio today" or "Damn it, I totally screwed up and ate half a pizza and pounded some beers. Guess I have to go to the gym and spend two+ hours on the treadmill." I just think it's counter productive because you start making all kinds of changes on the fly to adjust for changes in intake or whatnot.

    Instead, I like to put the workouts first and make that a weekly set amount. I think there is a set amount of exercise (mostly lifting with just a little bit of cardio, in my case) that I can reasonably expect to recover from in a given week. I don't want to do less, because, well, I want to max out the results my body can handle. But I don't want to do more because that would be overtraining and would be counter productive as well. So assuming I have the optimal amount figured out, I just do it. It's not an amount of calories I can count up on a workout day or a non-workout day. It is just part of my weekly activity in general, a SET variable that may fluctuate a tiny bit over time, but not much if I'm truly hitting my optimal exercise/recovery balance (and properly fuel it). Bottom line, this is a constant weekly average that doesn't need to be accounted for on a day to day basis.

    Thus goes theory IMO. As a result, you might guess that I prefer the idea of just figuring out your theoretical BMR, multiplying by an activity multiplier (be honest with yourself), subtract a few hundred if your goal is to lose weight, and make that number your daily average. If you want to eat a little more on workout days and a little less on non-workout, so be it, as long as you hit the average at the end of the week. I'm fluctuating my calories over the week that way, including a higher day on Saturday (controlled cheat), and a lower day on my weekday off day to compensate. As long as I hit my my macros and calorie averages with minimal daily deviation at week's end, all good.

    Now pick a damn number, hit it religiously for three weeks, workout the same way for that three weeks, and record the results. Then you can make a more informed decision based on YOUR ACTUAL energy expenditure and intake.
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    Now pick a damn number
    lol if i could do u think I would have typed up the original post? i know ill have to do it though...Im not the type to exercise more just so i can eat....but if im feeling hungry I might! Would that be wrong ?

    Ok so ill do it the correct way...

    BMR (1568) times by 1.3 multiplier = 2038 reduced by 15% so 1732 per day or 12,126 per week

    Ive gone for lightly active as I'm shooting on average 3-6 hours a day ( most days) , often in 28 degree room so its pretty taxing and im shattered afterwards. So i don't sit on my butt all day...

    Does 1732 sound about right???


    Im gonna be hungry , i just know it


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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post

    target calories on rest day 1568 ( basically my BMR)
    target calories on exercise days BMR + will eat exercise calories
    BMR is a very low caloric intake to maintain muscle. BMR + a predicted WO burn is equally low.

    My BMR is 2206, 4 workouts moderate intensity, 50/50 sedentary light activity job, use 1.4 activity multiplier, I deficit diet at 2625 calories for a 15% deficit.

    No problem losing a pound a week in the 15%-ish body fat range. The only people going down to BMR that I see succeeding are very late in contest prep, and for a short duration in the final stages. The rest just seem to turbo all their muscle and look like stringy washed out zombies.

    Plus if you start at BMR and stall where are you going to go to get fat loss moving again? Only go toward BMR as a last resort, and in small increments with caution. BMR is a marker that does not move much, and should serve as a buoy that marks the point of no safe return. IE stay away from it!
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  23. #23
    Registered User Jedwab's Avatar
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    I'm completely confused now...so is 1732 not enough? if anyone can work this out for me you would make me SO happy.
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    lol if i could do u think I would have typed up the original post? i know ill have to do it though...Im not the type to exercise more just so i can eat....but if im feeling hungry I might! Would that be wrong ?

    Ok so ill do it the correct way...

    BMR (1568) times by 1.3 multiplier = 2038 reduced by 15% so 1732 per day or 12,126 per week

    Ive gone for lightly active as I'm shooting on average 3-6 hours a day ( most days) , often in 28 degree room so its pretty taxing and im shattered afterwards. So i don't sit on my butt all day...

    Does 1732 sound about right???


    Im gonna be hungry , i just know it


    And thanks
    All makes sense on paper, as a starting point at least if you are looking for weight loss. I'm sure the ladies and the more experienced guys around here can judge better than me. IMO, I sure wouldn't go any lower than that as a starting point. You can always adjust down later if you're not getting the results you want.
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    Ok so ill do it the correct way...

    BMR (1568) times by 1.3 multiplier = 2038 reduced by 15% so 1732
    Try that, looks reasonable starting point. You are done for now, add or subtract 100 calories or stay the course in 2-3 weeks.
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    Originally Posted by EjnarKolinkar View Post
    BMR is a very low caloric intake to maintain muscle. BMR + a predicted WO burn is equally low.

    My BMR is 2206, 4 workouts moderate intensity, 50/50 sedentary light activity job, use 1.4 activity multiplier, I deficit diet at 2625 calories for a 15% deficit.

    No problem losing a pound a week in the 15%-ish body fat range. The only people going down to BMR that I see succeeding are very late in contest prep, and for a short duration in the final stages. The rest just seem to turbo all their muscle and look like stringy washed out zombies.

    Plus if you start at BMR and stall where are you going to go to get fat loss moving again? Only go toward BMR as a last resort, and in small increments with caution. BMR is a marker that does not move much, and should serve as a buoy that marks the point of no safe return. IE stay away from it!
    There you go, there's some experience right up your alley. Sounds like your workouts are similar, job activity levels are similar. Just different BMRs. So a starting point under this scenario would be 1568 x 1.4 = 2195 calories to stay the same weight over time. 2195 - 15% = 1865 calories per day on average to lose weight. I didn't do the math on your BMR, which it seems like you already had worked out.
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    Thanks everyone for your help.

    Im going for 12500 calories a week and see what happens. Just going to make sure my training is right....but that's another thread.

    I like this place. I'ts very helpful. Hopefully one day ill be able to give something back
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    Does 1732 sound about right???
    Im gonna be hungry , i just know it
    I wish I had your problem, I'm rarely hungry at even larger deficits than that. Forcing myself to eat all the time becomes very tedious but it is paying off.

    Nothing much to add to what has been said other than tracking and observation is more reliable than calculated numbers. If you do take frequent measurements don't read too much into the individual data points look at the trend instead.
    You can see from my weight graph of the last few years that the daily distribution (pink lines) is fairly variable but the white trend line is the one to watch.


    (weight in Kg obviously)
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  29. #29
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    I wish I had your problem, I'm rarely hungry at even larger deficits than that. Forcing myself to eat all the time becomes very tedious but it is paying off.
    lol and I wish I had your problem...

    I feel SO HUNGRY today!

    I was still messing about with the numbers yesterday and finally settled on a figure today, so went slightly under today. But basically my figure is 1798 kcals, split 30% protein (135g , my LBM is 122), 45% fat (90g)and 25% carbs (112g).

    I worked out yesterday and burned 424, and 520 today. Ive decided to leave my heart monitor at home from now on - since I'm not taking off my exercise calories there is no need to know what I burn.

    Im upping my carbs to over 100g as it appears that I have previously gone a touch overboard on the fat

    This is going to take some adjusting too - MFP has instilled in my head the mentality of food being a reward for burning it in the gym.

    Its still all messing with my head to be honest - as far as I can see I ate 2000 kcals yesterday ( http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/dia...ate=2013-02-11), exercised 420 approx, making my net intake 1580 , and today I ate 1669 ( http://www.myfitnesspal.com/food/dia...ate=2013-02-12) and burned 520, so net I've taken on 1149. So my net intake per day averaged over the two days is 1364 which is over 200 calories UNDER my BMR.

    In my head I know that i shouldn't take the exercise calories off as the exercise was already taken into account when i used the 1.35 activity multiplier to work out my pre-deficit intake in the first place. I need to stop worrying about the maths and just go with it for a few weeks...

    But I haven't felt this hungry in a long time - maybe I just have to get used to it if im going tot drop that last 8/9lbs. Just makes me so frigging grumpy.
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  30. #30
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    My $.02 on this topic based on my experiences since the 1st of the year.

    I think you should be somewhere around 1600-1800 cal a day to be in a slight deficit. If I were you, I would try to shoot for 1800/day first. DO NOT EAT YOUR EXERCISE. If you don't lose weight drop a few off.

    Personally, I have averaged about 2,000 calories a day, work out 4 times a week with a few hour long hikes a month. I have lost 19 lbs in 6 weeks at that rate. Thats a little over 3 lbs a week. Accounting for "noob" gains/losses, that would put me around 3,000-3,500 a day to maintain. I have only been more than sedentary for a few days out of that 6 week period and only for a few hours at a time.

    Short story long. Go for 1800. Drop it down a bit if you don't notice anything after a few weeks. Take 1.1 chill pills each and every night before bed. Smile.
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