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  1. #1
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    Arrow iForce Tropinol: Possible hypotensive-related health concerns

    I'm not sure how this slipped by iForce's R&D department - and maybe it was in fact considered to some degree however, I hope the label warning on Tropinol covers the following in detail. It likely would have been wise to drop the nitrates from the formula altogether, as there's already two other MOA's for enhanced vasodilation.

    Nonetheless, Tropinol's combined constituents may potentially set the stage for a hypotensive stae in susceptible individuals, especially in the presence of any cosupplemented products and/or drugs with additional vasodilating/BP-lowering actives.

    From what I've gathered, Tropinol's suggested dose is 4-capsules preworkout, thus providing around 368 mg of nitrates. Now this in and of itself is not an issue however, when considering the fact that Tropinol's profile includes 3 actives with MOA's that together, can significantly lower blood pressure, I can only imagine there might be some problematic issues in the future. If not, then you can spank me later.

    In the end, it might be a good idea for the iForce representatives to keep a close eye on threads where members are considering stacking Tropinol with other products with various BP-lowering ingredients.


    MOA for potential hypotensive crisis:

    1. Icariin --> inhibition of cGMP hydrolysis --> increased cGMP signaling --> smooth muscle relaxation = enhanced vasodilation

    2. Nitrates --> GC activation --> increased GTP conversion to cGMP --> smooth muscle relaxation = enhanced vasodilation

    3. Forskolin --> AC activation --> cAMP upregulation --> smooth muscle relaxation --> enhanced vasodilation
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 02-05-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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  2. #2
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    another day, another NOHYPE call out thread

    Tropinol XP is without a doubt a POTENT product, and due to its ingredients it will absolutely cause some serious vasodilation/pumps. Between the Icariin + Nitrates alone, you are in for some fun!

    As for people entering a hypotensive state, we have not found that to happen in our testing, nor do we believe it will happen unless someone is extremely susceptible to low blood pressure issues.

    Our warning label specifically states:

    Tropinol XP Warning Label
    Important: Exceeding the recommended servings, not following the directions, or not following the warnings may lead to unwanted effects.

    Warnings: This product is only intended to be consumed by healthy individuals 18 years of age or older. Pregnant or nursing women should not use this product. Consult with your health care provider before using this product, especially if you are taking any prescription, over the counter medication, dietary supplement product or if you have any pre-existing medical condition including but not limited to: high or low blood pressure, cardiac arrhythmia, stroke, heart, liver, kidney or thyroid disease, seizure disorder, psychiatric disease, diabetes, difficulty urinating due to prostate enlargement or if you are taking MAO-B inhibitor or any other medication, including but not limited to MAOIs, SSRIs or any other compounds with serotonergic activity. Do not combine with alcohol. Discontinue use and immediately consult your health care professional if you experience any adverse reaction to this product. Do not exceed recommended serving. Do not use if safety seal is broken or missing.
    People who had low blood pressure, or are using prescription drugs shouldn't be using this product. It is meant for healthy individuals 18 years and older.

    Keep in mind, MANY people, myself included, stacked C-bol with Hemavol(agmatine, norvaline, CM, etc), and had no issues whatsoever.

    I highly doubt anyone will notice any issues unless that just can't handle nitrates normally.
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  3. #3
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    also, if you are concerned, simply use the "non-workout day" dosing scheme of 2 in the am and 2 6-8 hours later to assess your tolerance. I think we covered that pretty well in our label
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    another day, another NOHYPE call out thread
    Cmon' VT.... this is a genuine concern.



    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    As for people entering a hypotensive state, we have not found that to happen in our testing, nor do we believe it will happen unless someone is extremely susceptible to low blood pressure issues.
    So iForce monitored BP-readings during the beta run?

    How many individuals were evaluated?

    What did the readings generally look like, and at what dose?
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Keep in mind, MANY people, myself included, stacked C-bol with Hemavol(agmatine, norvaline, CM, etc), and had no issues whatsoever.
    Not a fair comparison. Different compounds, different effects --> there's no PDE5 inhibitors in Hemavol.


    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    I highly doubt anyone will notice any issues unless that just can't handle nitrates normally.
    So would you consider the addition of something like Hemavol with Tropinol to be a wise choice?
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Cmon' VT.... this is a genuine concern.





    So iForce monitored BP-readings during the beta run?

    How many individuals were evaluated?

    What did the readings generally look like, and at what dose?
    I'm not doubting that this could be a concern, however we don't believe it will be one once the product is released.

    We didn't take before and after blood pressure of alpha testers, as there were no complaints about hypo/hyper experiences.

    We believe we have the formula tweaked properly to include the 368mg of nitrates + Icariin + Coleus and not have it effect people in a negative manner.

    If we had complaints during our testing, we would have altered the formula to ensure those weren't felt in the final product.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Not a fair comparison. Different compounds, different effects --> there's no PDE5 inhibitors in Hemavol.

    So would you consider the addition of something like Hemavol with Tropinol to be a wise choice?
    Hemavol contains Icariin.

    I think Tropinol XP and Hemavol will be a top selling and widely loved combo.
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    so this could be beneficial for someone who has high BP and not on prescription drugs?
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    Originally Posted by uforce View Post
    so this could be beneficial for someone who has high BP and not on prescription drugs?
    *This product is not intended to treat, diagnose, or cure any diseases



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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    *This product is not intended to treat, diagnose, or cure any diseases
    understood. understood.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    Hemavol contains Icariin.
    Sorry for that however, according to the ingredients listed by predominance in weight, the amount of icariin in Hemavol is nowhere near the amount of icariin that's in Tropinol, as it's the last active on the label out of a 150 mg blend with 3 other actives.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    I think Tropinol XP and Hemavol will be a top selling and widely loved combo.
    Interesting.

    I genuinely hope you are right.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    If we had complaints during our testing, we would have altered the formula to ensure those weren't felt in the final product.
    In fairness, was the combination of other products such as Hemavol and/or other products with resultant BP-lowering effects evaluated?

    Thank you for all the quick responses nonetheless.
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    there were no complaints about hypo/hyper experiences.
    Original post edited on account of your comments. I truly hope there are no BP-related issues when combined with other similar products, as we all know the 'stack the shit out of anything & everything' mentality of some of the people who don't know any better.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Sorry for that however, according to the ingredients listed by predominance in weight, the amount of icariin in Hemavol is nowhere near the amount of icariin that's in Tropinol, as it's the last active on the label.
    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Interesting.

    I genuinely hope you are right.
    You are correct, Tropinol XP does contain more Icariin than Hemavol does.


    Look at this link which indicates ED dosing in rats. they used 1-5mg of pure Icariin, which equates to anywhere from to .16mg to .81mg/kg in humans. So for a 200lbs guy, that equtes to 14.54mg-73mg per day.

    We utilize a 20% extract, and provide our users with an effective but sane dose of this ingredient.

    While I appreciate your concern and understand where you're coming from ( I wasn't/am not offended by the post, I think questions like these are great and help people learn more), I do not believe people will have any issues whatsoever.

    As previously stated, if someone is concerned, or are especially sensitive to nitrates, splitting the dosage 2/2 is their best bet to assess their tolerance.

    This same argument could have been put forth for those stacking C-bol + Pump-Bol, but that again was an awesome stack which many people enjoyed. I believe that stack had >2x the nitrates Tropinol XP does...no?
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    In fairness, was the combination of other products such as Hemavol and/or other products with resultant BP-lowering effects evaluated?

    Thank you for all the quick responses nonetheless.
    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Original post edited on account of your comments. I truly hope there are no BP-related issues when combined with other similar products, as we all know the 'stack the shit out of anything & everything' mentality of some of the people who don't know any better.

    I agree that people like to stack the crap out of everything. There are certain things that shouldn't be stacked with this, but on its own, and/or with Hemavol will deliver great results.
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    MOA for potential hypotensive crisis:

    1. Icariin --> inhibition of cGMP hydrolysis --> increased cGMP signaling --> smooth muscle relaxation = enhanced vasodilation

    2. Nitrates --> GC activation --> increased GTP conversion to cGMP --> smooth muscle relaxation = enhanced vasodilation

    3. Forskolin --> AC activation --> cAMP upregulation --> smooth muscle relaxation --> enhanced vasodilation

    1. Icariin inhibits PDE4/5, not PDE3

    2. Woot.

    3. Dangerously Increased cAMP will just result in a negative feedback loop of increased PDE3 expression

    At the doses found in these products, I really don't think this is an issue. Of course I also don't think the Icariin or Forskolin will noticably contribute to pumps.

    (PDE5 is heavily tissue specific, and it's rare enough that even potent selective PDE5 inhibitors[viagra] cause severe hypotensive issues, Icariin by comparison is a much weaker inhibitor of PDE5)
    Last edited by YESHYPE; 02-05-2013 at 10:35 AM.
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    Originally Posted by YESHYPE View Post
    1. Icariin inhibits PDE4/5, not PDE3

    2. Woot.

    3. Dangerously Increased cAMP will just result in a negative feedback loop of increased PDE3 expression

    At the doses found in these products, I really don't think this is an issue. Of course I also don't think the Icariin or Forskolin will noticably contribute to pumps.
    Seriously Icariin gives me a noticeable increase in pumps(solo or stacked). Never did get anything in that department from forskolin but still an ingredient I thoroughly enjoy none the less.
    Kush & OJ

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    Originally Posted by YESHYPE View Post
    PDE5 is heavily tissue specific, and it's rare enough that even potent selective PDE5 inhibitors[viagra] cause severe hypotensive issues, Icariin by comparison is a much weaker inhibitor of PDE5
    Thanks for your comments.

    After doing a little more research, I have to agree. When considering icariin's IC50, compared to that of sidenafil's [.0066 micromolar], icariin would require nearly 80-fold greater PDE5-inhibitory activity for my former comments to be applicable.

    I'll take my spankings now.

    VT.... I don't want anyone getting false impressions as a result of this thread, so I can delete it or keep it up. Your call.

    Thanks to everone who contributed, and let it be known that my actions were purely out of genuine concern.
    Last edited by NO HYPE; 02-05-2013 at 01:51 PM.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Thanks for your comments.

    After doing a little more research, I have to agree. When considering icariin's IC50, compared to that of sidenafil's [.0066 micromolar], icariin would require nearly 80-fold greater inhibitory activity for PDE5 for my former comments to be applicable.

    I'll take my spankings now.

    VT.... I don't want anyone getting false impressions as a result of this thread, so I can delete it or keep it up. Your call.

    Thanks to everone who contributed, and let it be known that my actions were purely out of genuine concern.
    As stated earlier, I welcome threads like these. If a company can't defend it's product, they shouldn't be selling it!
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    Originally Posted by VaughnTrue View Post
    As states earlier, I welcome threads like these. If a company can't defend it's product, they shouldn't be selling it!
    Refreshing outlook indeed.

    iForce and it's reps have been doing a great job as of late, and I thank you for all the quick responses, and also for not misunderstanding my intent.

    Good chit. Reps on spread.
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    Refreshing outlook indeed.

    iForce and it's reps have been doing a great job as of late, and I thank you for all the quick responses, and also for not misunderstanding my intent.

    Good chit. Reps on spread.
    I appreciate the kind words. iForce Nutrition has changed a LOT since I came on board, and although it's been hard at times, I have changed a lot as well.

    My days of arguing/bickering are over on these boards(which I hope my posts in the past few months have proven true), and iForce as company is making giant leaps in growth as a result of our incredible rep team here and on other forums.

    Since iForce got back into BB.com we've gone from not listed to the 62nd best selling brand on this website! Just imagine when we get our full line up of products in the store, and keep releasing some new ones


    I know you are interested in the truth, and that means you don't play favorites. You and I get along very well, so I knew your intent was not to bash iForce, but was out of general concern for peoples health. No worries whatsoever, and reps of spread for you as well.
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    One of the few valuable threads on the forum. And once again I am impressed with iForce and their ability to come in and defend their product and not just report it to a mod to be deleted.
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    NO HYPE

    What do you think of combining these two products





    I do this regularly, will I die
    I'm not here to wrestle online with you , "friend" lets just enjoy some memes ok
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    You'll be fine, worst you'd get is some headaches if you were double dosing them or something.

    Your body has a negative feedback loop that keeps these sorts of things in check and combining those two products isn't going to inhibit that process.

    EDIT: My name isn't NO HYPE, but I've got an avatar, who you gonna trust. Some guy with his science filled lingo and no avatar (does he even lift?!?) or a guy not afraid to show off his results
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    Originally Posted by vaughntrue View Post
    i appreciate the kind words. Iforce nutrition has changed a lot since i came on board, and although it's been hard at times, i have changed a lot as well.

    My days of arguing/bickering are over on these boards(which i hope my posts in the past few months have proven true), and iforce as company is making giant leaps in growth as a result of our incredible rep team here and on other forums.

    Since iforce got back into bb.com we've gone from not listed to the 62nd best selling brand on this website! Just imagine when we get our full line up of products in the store, and keep releasing some new ones


    i know you are interested in the truth, and that means you don't play favorites. You and i get along very well, so i knew your intent was not to bash iforce, but was out of general concern for peoples health. No worries whatsoever, and reps of spread for you as well.
    qft!
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    Originally Posted by Starkk View Post
    NO HYPE

    What do you think of combining these two products





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    Chit bish.... I got the spins and a migraine already.
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    Never really gotten a headache, but the pumps are great.

    Actually, I just can't stand the taste of the SAN Fierce anymore

    thanks yes and no
    I'm not here to wrestle online with you , "friend" lets just enjoy some memes ok
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    Originally Posted by YESHYPE View Post
    Your body has a negative feedback loop that keeps these sorts of things in check and combining those two products isn't going to inhibit that process.
    In fairness, that fact takes a backseat to interindividual variables, but I know where you're coming from. I actually got a couple of PM's in the past from respectable members who experiencd some significant nitrate-mediated sides from Ice plus [old formula], and it wasn't stacked with anything.



    Originally Posted by YESHYPE View Post
    Your My name isn't NO HYPE, but I've got an avatar, who you gonna trust. Some guy with his science filled lingo and no avatar (does he even lift?!?) or a guy not afraid to show off his results
    rofl
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    Originally Posted by NO HYPE View Post
    In fairness, that fact takes a backseat to interindividual variables, but I know where you're coming from. I actually got a couple of PM's in the past from respectable members who experiencd some significant nitrate-mediated sides from Ice plus [old formula], and it wasn't stacked with anything.
    Definitely, I was just saying that he is at minimal risk of severe/damaging side effects from that combination.
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