You can't out-train bad nutrition........or can you?

[acrawlingchaos]

And this is where things get complicated. If your only goal is leanness, then dieting will get you where you need to be. If you only want maximum muscle or plan on competing in powerlifting, then eat big and lift heavy. It's when the goals are divided that you need to figure out where your balance point is on the teeter totter. And trying to stay balanced on that fulcrum is the hardest part of all.

Agreed. This is where I think nutrition plays it's biggest role.

Being clean can be done relatively easily without much attention to detail to diet, the same can be said when bulking. Adding muscle while remaining lean OTOH, I think deserves more attention to detail.

The more I learn about nutrition, and the more I practice... I feel like I am at a point where I can do just that. Time will tell, but so far so good.

[wheels30]

I see so many people saying that nutrition is 80% or whatever.

Yet I see so many people wandering around the gym doing complete BS routines and making zero gains.

Lots of people would say my diet is total crap. I drink beer every day. I never eat fruit and don't eat a lot of veggies or grains. I pretty much live on meat, eggs and beer.

But I lift heavy, and I lift a lot. And while I'm clearly not bodybuilder lean, I have a helluva lot of muscle mass, and not bad strength (except presses due to shoulder issues).

So what's your position?

Is nutrition more important, or is effort in the gym more important?

You wouldn't be able to lift heavy, or alot, if your diet was holding you back.

Your diet is fine for your goals. Could it be better and have you exceed your goals to a greater extent? Probably...

[Smelly bull]

Many people have said this....when i am hunting to get bigger and stronger, the Frankenstein approach to nutrition worked...all food is good, no food is bad. Now that I am dieting down, nutrition is critical to ensuring i keep up my strength and my muscle mass.

[induced_drag]

You all know a thread is not complete unless I post a pic!


You are right....without watching intake in particular, you can get big.

This was me after I got back in the gym a few months after recovering from my accident.

Bench was in the mid 3's deads were over 500. But I had a LOT of fat too..

Bodyweight 205-210 +/-








Now while I might look "big'-ish in the above pics. I am really not. This is how "big" I was when I dropped the fat finally and realized much of my 'bulk' was fat.

This was me at 178 waist 6+" smaller and MORE lean mass.




OK enough pics....not posting them for attention at all....just to show my point. In the 'after' pic, I do not look "big' by any stretch.

I look 'fit' and muscular....but not 'big' in my mind.

Just being 'big' and strong comes easy with hard work, time and excess food. (for some more then others and I am on the gifted side when it comes my muscular potential, I wont deny that)

Being "big and strong" easy. Big strong and lean.....you need to really control the intake.

[ironwill2008]

My personal opinion (and one shared by many old school bodybuilders) is that the reason most people don't make gains is, they don't eat enough. I see skinnny dudes in the gym busting their asses for years, and haven't changed one bit. If they gave their bodies enough fuel for growth, their results would be different.

Absolutely.

Probably half of the threads in the 'nutrition' and 'workout programs' forums are from skinny kids claiming they "eat 'a ton' but can't gain weight." When asked to list yesterday's meals/food intake, most of the time, a list of snacks and maybe one or two real meals that wouldn't total 1200 calories are shown.





You can't build muscle/strength from thin air.

So here's my typical daily diet.

Post workout 2 scoops whey in water.

Mid-morning 5-6 hardboiled eggs with 2-3 tablespoons olive oil (no pic necessary)

Typical Lunch:

A container (1.5 cups or so) of this:



Started as 6 lbs extra lean ground beef, browned then strained, a couple cans of beans and a few cans of crushed/diced tomatoes and maybe some sautéed onions and/or mushrooms (we never make it exactly the same every time).


Typical Dinner:

A plate load of this:



3lbs sirloin roast on a bed of onions, carrots, potatoes.

And yeah I crack a beer as soon as I get home from work and have as many as I want.

I don't see anything wrong with any of ^^^^ these food choices. All of the macros are represented as well as micros from the veg. In fact, anyone expecting to build mass/strength would do well to include at least part of this menu in their nutrition plan every day.

Obviously, portion sizes will be a consideration depending on the individual's caloric requirement.




The alcohol is up to the individual.

[-=FLEX=-]

You all know a thread is not complete unless I post a pic!

Being "big and strong" easy. Big strong and lean.....you need to really control the intake.

And here we go....


<no nut hug>

ID you are one of a very few number of individuals I have seen that has brute strength AND are super lean.

<no nut hug>

Now go work on your calves.

[Sen8or]

Could it be that the 80% thing mostly applies to those that strive to be better than the 75-90% of the others that workout regularly?

I say "workout" as it is quite likely that there are many who go to the gym and are happy to just "workout" week to week, no real goals, no idea what a PR is, but they feel good about exercising.

[-=FLEX=-]

And just one comment on the post-workout whey:

I work in a different city than I live in, so I have a 45+ minute commute to work and a meeting at 9am every morning so I do the whey in water thing on the drive to work for the simple reason that otherwise I'd be unbearable to deal with and would have HR in my office daily.

[Caesura75]

Keep in mind some of us were born with great genetic and some of us have to work harder (at the gym and watch what we eat) because we aren't so blessed. OP, sounds like you may be in the blessed group..good on ya

This is a crucial factor. People's challenges vary - endomorphs will find that their battle is cutting, whilst ectomorphs will struggle more with gaining mass.

Nutrition and exercise are combined to achieve a goal, but a person's genetics will have a very large say in which aspects of the process require more work.

5-6 eggs for breakfast every day, red meat for lunch every day, and some kind of lean meat for dinner every night.

I know this isn't the most riveting of subjects but i've gotta ask - do you tend to find yourself constipated with this diet? I've increased my egg and meat intake quite a lot and am probably averaging 150g per day. I just can't take anymore, I get sick of the protein after a point and am also finding that whilst I can still 'go' to the toilet, it's taking a little more effort and time!

[IronCharles]

You are right....without watching intake in particular, you can get big.

This was me after I got back in the gym a few months after recovering from my accident.

Bench was in the mid 3's deads were over 500. But I had a LOT of fat too..

This is another matter of individual perspective. For me, I would gladly take mass and fat, because I know from experience that I can shed fat quickly, but it takes me far more time to put on quality muscle. For others, they may put on LBM easily, but have a hell of a time getting lean. Those folks would love to have the metabolism that would make that part of it easier for them. It's somewhat of a "I wish I had what I can't get so easily" thinking process.

This is a crucial factor. People's challenges vary - endomorphs will find that their battle is cutting, whilst ectomorphs will struggle more with gaining mass.

Nutrition and exercise are combined to achieve a goal, but a person's genetics will have a very large say in which aspects of the process require more work.

I agree.

[Jtbny]

This is another matter of individual perspective. For me, I would gladly take mass and fat, because I know from experience that I can shed fat quickly, but it takes me far more time to put on quality muscle. For others, they may put on LBM easily, but have a hell of a time getting lean. Those folks would love to have the metabolism that would make that part of it easier for them. It's somewhat of a "I wish I had what I can't get so easily" thinking process.

Again good point. One thing I constantly have to tell myself is that we all are different. I understand the same principles apply but genetics play a big role in our individual success.

[egoatdoor]

I see so many people saying that nutrition is 80% or whatever.

Yet I see so many people wandering around the gym doing complete BS routines and making zero gains.

Lots of people would say my diet is total crap. I drink beer every day. I never eat fruit and don't eat a lot of veggies or grains. I pretty much live on meat, eggs and beer.

But I lift heavy, and I lift a lot. And while I'm clearly not bodybuilder lean, I have a helluva lot of muscle mass, and not bad strength (except presses due to shoulder issues).

So what's your position?

Is nutrition more important, or is effort in the gym more important?

And thats the point. If you were to go into competition, things like nutrition become much more important and if you didn't change, you'd get smeared. The fact that you get away with what you do also says you have genetic gifts that many others do not have. Even being a non competitor, if you dropped some of the beer consumption and made some other change in what you are doing, you'd probably find you'd look EVEN better and your "strength" would also do up big time. You' re leaving the casino with a lot of money still on the table.

[-=FLEX=-]

I know this isn't the most riveting of subjects but i've gotta ask - do you tend to find yourself constipated with this diet? I've increased my egg and meat intake quite a lot and am probably averaging 150g per day. I just can't take anymore, I get sick of the protein after a point and am also finding that whilst I can still 'go' to the toilet, it's taking a little more effort and time!

Holy personal questions, batman!!!!!!!!

I think I have been constipated exactly once in my entire adult life, and that being when I was in Dominican Republic about 20 years ago and I got major diarrhea so I drank like half a bottle of pepto bismol and didn't **** for 2 days. Never again.

[kittyboy]

I agree with you. But IMHO if you only care about getting leaner and ripped and not building muscle then you should be on weightwatchers.com and not BODYBYUILDING.COM

Building muscle is why I am here and what I am trying to accomplish.

That's what comes to my mind every time I venture into the "Post Your Pictures" subforum. The folks attempting bodybuilding seem to be outnumbered by those chasing a "swimmer's build". Of course, I'd never be mistaken for a swimmer, and probably not for a bodybuilder (yet), either.

[induced_drag]

This is another matter of individual perspective. For me, I would gladly take mass and fat, because I know from experience that I can shed fat quickly, but it takes me far more time to put on quality muscle. For others, they may put on LBM easily, but have a hell of a time getting lean. Those folks would love to have the metabolism that would make that part of it easier for them. It's somewhat of a "I wish I had what I can't get so easily" thinking process.
...

While the above it true.... Having been on all sides of the fence, I can honestly say I DO think there is an advantage to carefully tracking TOTAL calories even when on surplus and mass gains are the primary goal.

I believe that guys who eat instinctively, inherently eat some days over, some under. Some days WAY over, some WAY under. Over time, there is a general surplus, but on any given day it might be over or under.


Meaning, there are some days, you dont have the fuel your body needs to grow. And there are some days you have too much and this goes towards extra body fat. This to me is inevitable. Over time I believe this will lead to gains....but they will less LBM and MORE fat.


Now I may be splitting hairs here, and I have no studies to prove anything. But I have seen that there is a groove you can find....for me it is somewhere around 200 250 cal a day. When you hit this groove.....you can almost feel it. Your strength will rise almost every workout, the scale will continually rise...and there will be very little change in skinfolds of waist diameter. It is like the golden wave....and you ride it as long as you can when you find it.

I cant tell you guys how awesome it feels when you zone in on this area.....but if you can find it, you will make by far the best gains of your life...with little body fat.


To me....the above is what I chase. Now that I am not 'natural' this zone is still the same. I still struggle to keep fat gains to a minimum while gaining as much mass as I can.


I believe this is best done though series of planned deficits and surpluses. The deficits are VERY important as well. It primes your body for growth. It re-establishes insulin sensitivity....which will go down over periods of extended surplus. DOnt believe me.... look at the training and progress of competitive Bodybuilders AFTER a contest. Many will report the best gains they ever had. For me, I can feel when I need to drop cals. My "bang for the buck" of my cals goes WAY down and I start picking up bodyfat at the same cals.


Really all of the above may sound like black magic...but I have seen it first hand and experienced it. It is why I am so passionate about it. No worries if you dont buy it....but if you have never really given it a shot, you will never know. Lots of competitive bodybuilder know EXACTLY what I am talking about. Maybe we are ALL nuts and bro-science.


All I can say is:....Yes you can progress without micro managing. BUT if you want the best gains and band for the buck you can get, you will get no better payback then eating with purpose....both quality and quantity.

[Miranda]

from what i've seen floating around, the 'you can't out train a 'bad' diet' means simply that if your calorie intake isn't where it should be for your goal, all the training in the world can't make up for it.

most often in the context of women who want to lose fat and who do hours and hours of cardio but do not count calories accurately (or at all). the 'bad' diet means they eat at, or in excess of their increased output.

same applies for building muscle. you can't build something out of nothing.

[Montourage]

I think it depends on large part on a persons natural metabolism and how fast or slow it is. To a person with a slow metabolism it might be a huge part or a person trying to lose weight. To a person with a fast metabolism trying to gain muscle I think it is less important. As per my age I can no longer eat whatever I want with no consequences to my obliques.

[Vanguard1965]

Workout + proper nutrition = better body. Why argue over what % nutrition is in the equation? I would argue the better the workout program + the better nutrition = faster/better results.

I will say going to the gym and working out is the easy part for me. Being strict with my diet takes far more effort especially when I am tempted by treats all the time. It would be great to say **** it and just eat what I wanted and keep my protein up and not give two ****s if I carry 40 to 50 lbs of fat as long as I could say hey I am big and strong and workout but that doesn't win many bodybuilding contests. So for my goal of actually winning bodybuilding competitions I have to put on as much mass as possible while being able to get to extremely low bodyfat %. So yes proper nutrition plays a "BIG" role in that outcome.

[Getsum]

So here's my typical daily diet.

Post workout 2 scoops whey in water.

Mid-morning 5-6 hardboiled eggs with 2-3 tablespoons olive oil (no pic necessary)

Typical Lunch:

A container (1.5 cups or so) of this:



Started as 6 lbs extra lean ground beef, browned then strained, a couple cans of beans and a few cans of crushed/diced tomatoes and maybe some sautéed onions and/or mushrooms (we never make it exactly the same every time).


Typical Dinner:

A plate load of this:



3lbs sirloin roast on a bed of onions, carrots, potatoes.

And yeah I crack a beer as soon as I get home from work and have as many as I want.

Most excellent and anabolic!!!

[bodyhard]

Bad nutrition/hard work in the gym = Good build
Good nutrition/easy work in the gym = Bad build
Good nutrition/Hard work in the gym = Excellent build

Pretty simple stuff.

[jobronze]

Awesome thread

For my personal account, an easy fat gainer /hard muscle gainer, not until I tracked macros and went quasi-paleo did I actually start seeing results out the gym.

Some dudes can just look at a barbell and be swole. But even that dude has to dial it in more for an elite level of muscularity.

[EB68]

I have no dog in this fight and understand that everyone has different goals which require different methods. But in my case I have managed to build substantial muscle while losing fat over the past few months. 18 weeks into my cut I am setting PR's every week in the gym and maintaining pretty close to 1 pound of weight loss per week. There is no way in hell I could do this without closely monitoring my diet. If I had no care in the world about how fat I was I would just eat whatever and still build more than likely the same amount of muscle, but add lots of fat along the way. I would rather be big and ripped and stronger all at the same time and it is possible. Not that I am there yet, but I am on my way. And now thanks to FLEX I am hungry again.

[-=FLEX=-]

And now thanks to FLEX I am hungry again.

You're welcome.

Now go eat something that used to eat other things.

[themyth2009]

Flex from diet you listed you focus on high protein from quality sources. You are doing this for a reason I am guessing to build muscle. Seems like you are making sure you balance life. Lift for strength and size. Eat to support goal. Drink so you can enjoy your life.

If you wanted a better build you could cut the beer and I am sure it would help. But at what price?

For me I think they are equally important. Why have different training methods if it makes no difference.

Anyway IMO: 80% genetic, 10% training program (including rest), 10% diet.

I know people that eat like crap, train like crap and would put most people here to shame.

[Getsum]

Bad nutrition/hard work in the gym = Good build
Good nutrition/easy work in the gym = Bad build
Good nutrition/Hard work in the gym = Excellent build

Pretty simple stuff.

I've got to agree.

[2nd_chance]

Anyway IMO: 80% genetic, 10% training program (including rest), 10% diet.

This. Completely agree. This applies after you get past noob gains. Most people don't want to hear this but I am 100% convinced that its true.

[EjnarKolinkar]

3lbs sirloin roast on a bed of onions, carrots, potatoes.

Now that we all agree that you can't get the huge without eating food and that the percentage assigned doesn't really matter as long as food = goal. Can we just make this a beef pron thread?

[Big_Sky_Guy]

It depends! LOL

I don't think anyone would argue that you will get "better" results if you have a better diet, but by how much? Depends how far off you are from optimum nutrition for your training and goals. Then it's a cost-benefit for each person in regards to how much your diet is part of enjoying your life.


At the same time there is a large genetic component to our overall makeup. We all know people that don't really workout and look like they spend 3-4 days a week in the gym. We also see people who come to the gym 3-4 times a week, take their pre-WO, lift hard, take a post-WO and still look fairly average.

[tacdgb]

You guys can argue this all you want. But I like eating a clean diet. I feel better and I look better. I do believe that you can't out train a crappy diet. I believe that it's not just about building serious muscles.....it's about my health too.

[RobertD2]

I agree with you. But IMHO if you only care about getting leaner and ripped and not building muscle then you should be on weightwatchers.com and not BODYBYUILDING.COM

Building muscle is why I am here and what I am trying to accomplish.

Wouldn't Sumowrestlers.com be better?