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  1. #1
    Registered User chadwr85's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Bro Split is not optimal!

    A lot of people on here and just about every article raves about the bro split. A typical bro split would look something like this
    Monday-Chest
    Tuesday-Back
    Wednesday-Legs
    Thursday-Shoulders
    Friday-Arms
    But this isn't optimal. Science is a wonderful thing. Pro Bodybuilders are the supporters of this program and after all they're huge so shouldn't we do what they do? NO! They aren't normal. They are taking synthetic testosterone and many other things. These steroids, and P.E.D's that the Bodybuilders take increase protein synthesis drastically! Protein Synthesis is basically building muscle. This means after they workout their muscles are building for days upon days!
    There are countless studies that have shown for non P.E.D taking people that your Testosterone levels, which causes increased protein synthesis, Is only increased for 48 hours after a workout. The levels are drastically increased immediately following a workout and then begin to lower, reaching normal levels 48 hours after a workout. So what does this mean? It means your muscles are done building 48 hours after a workout.
    But why am I sore many days later? DOMS! DOMS is a terrible thing. Pretty much when you workout with a bro split you are hitting a muscle hard, too hard. You only need 6-8 sets to stimulate a muscle into growth. But DOMS occurs when you do too much and the sarcolemma (holds the "muscle" content in place) becomes ruptured and the "contents" spill out into other muscle fibers, and this signals pain receptors. Another thought to be cause is a immune response by white blood cells (basophils in particular). But most scientist think it's the Sarcolemma ripping causing painful stimuli.
    So why would you want to stimulate your muscles so much that it causes structural damage and real pain? Not soreness, pain! If science has found out that you need 6-8 sets to stimulate a muscle group into growth, and the fact Protein Synthesis levels are back to normal 48 hours late, why not hit a muscle twice a week?
    Now if you experience DOMS then it would be wise to rest because your muscles have to be repaired from the structural integrity being compromised. So in a way the "bro split" does take longer for you to recover but that doesn't mean that you are getting more gains, that means your repairing detrimental damage to your muscles.
    Now you will get gains doing the "bro split". I've done it and got gains. But these gains were not as good as hitting the muscle group twice a week. If I could have you take anything from this it would be hit those muscle twice a week. Rather if it's a upper/lower or push/pull/legs, let your muscles grow!
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  2. #2
    Bulking to 220 cjowns76's Avatar
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    Need cliffs.

    My split
    4 days
    M-Legs
    T-Chest
    W-Back
    T-Shoulders
    Repeat, take days off as needed (so once every 2-3 weeks for me)

    See no issue with this and I'm getting stronger every week.
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  3. #3
    Registered User ewall23's Avatar
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    Tldr

    Jk

    Did Jim stoppani's shortcut to size which would be considered a bro split I guess and saw great gains. However after that I decided to put together my own bro split to try and make better gains and all I got from it was hurt joints after 3 weeks (yes I was eating and sleeping plenty). So OP I will be taking your advice and doing a push/pull/legs soon once I feel fully recovered hopefully in a week :/
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  4. #4
    Bulking to 220 cjowns76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ewall23 View Post
    Tldr
    Lol, honestly this, thats a wall of text brah.
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  5. #5
    Registered User bravo96's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cjowns76 View Post
    Need cliffs.

    My split
    4 days
    M-Legs
    T-Chest
    W-Back
    T-Shoulders
    Repeat, take days off as needed (so once every 2-3 weeks for me)

    See no issue with this and I'm getting stronger every week.
    cliffs
    - science indicates its optimal to train each muscle 2-3 times a week.
    - training a bodypart once a week is only used by pros due to amount of drug use.
    - nothing we already didnt know.
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  6. #6
    Bulking to 220 cjowns76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bravo96 View Post
    cliffs
    - science indicates its optimal to train each muscle 2-3 times a week.
    - training a bodypart once a week is only used by pros due to amount of drug use.
    - nothing we already didnt know.
    thanks brah. Repped.
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  7. #7
    This Space for Rent RockCrab's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cjowns76 View Post
    thanks brah. Repped.
    wut? Been here since May '09 and just now figuring this out? Read much?
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  8. #8
    Bulking to 220 cjowns76's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RockCrab View Post
    wut? Been here since May '09 and just now figuring this out? Read much?
    Didn't start using the site till about 6 months ago. I ordered supplements off the site in 09 and had a body space, didn't use the forum though.
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  9. #9
    This Space for Rent RockCrab's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by cjowns76 View Post
    Didn't start using the site till about 6 months ago. I ordered supplements off the site in 09 and had a body space, didn't use the forum though.
    Ah. Got it.
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  10. #10
    Registered User chadwr85's Avatar
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    You'll get gains with the "bro split" but it's just not going to be the same as push/pull/legs or upper/lower. This whole site is full of "bro spits" and what not, but if you're juicing it's fine and dandy but if not you're missing out on some gains! When I did the bro split for about 6 months I had almost no strength gains, some size gains but not nearly as much as the push/pull/legs.
    I'll whoop ya head boy, ya know I will.

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  11. #11
    Registered User jobronze's Avatar
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    As a lifter progresses through various stages of development, there are going to be certain splits that he/she will see the most benefit from. Absolute beginners will see the best gains from Full body splits for example.

    But lets not dismiss the bro split as it has built some pretty decent bodies in commercial gyms and in the professional ranks. But I do agree a higher frequency "mixed" workout is best for the intermediate lifter. Advanced lifters need MUCH more volume therefore even natty bodybuilders go with the 1x bro-split, and it delivers.
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    Registered User chadwr85's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jobronze View Post
    As a lifter progresses through various stages of development, there are going to be certain splits that he/she will see the most benefit from. Absolute beginners will see the best gains from Full body splits for example.

    But lets not dismiss the bro split as it has built some pretty decent bodies in commercial gyms and in the professional ranks. But I do agree a higher frequency "mixed" workout is best for the intermediate lifter. Advanced lifters need MUCH more volume therefore even natty bodybuilders go with the 1x bro-split, and it delivers.
    You will get gains with the bro splits. But why not lift more often, and avoid the DOMS.

    I disagree that you need more volume the more advanced you are, you stimulate a muscle by either increasing the weight or increasing the repetitions. Science has proved 6-8 sets is enough to stimulate major muscle groups into growth like the chest and quads.
    I'll whoop ya head boy, ya know I will.

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  13. #13
    Registered User guyver79's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by chadwr85 View Post
    You will get gains with the bro splits. But why not lift more often, and avoid the DOMS.

    I disagree that you need more volume the more advanced you are, you stimulate a muscle by either increasing the weight or increasing the repetitions. Science has proved 6-8 sets is enough to stimulate major muscle groups into growth like the chest and quads.
    I get what you're saying and it makes sense on paper but for some people a 'bro split' is sometimes ideal out on necessity, I work a pretty physical job and I'm over 200lb, for me personally, more than one or two bodyparts a session is too much for me to recover from, the way I look at it is that a newbie that weighs 150lbs that's moving baby weights is going to be able to train more bodyparts and more often, if I train back by itself I'm probably moving more weight and stimulating more muscle than our hypothetical 150lb noobs back, chest and shoulders combined.
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    I've been doing push pull legs for a while and don't seem to recover enough to do it twice a week wat do?
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    Progression, consistent effort, decent excercise selection, and an appropriate diet is what is important. How you set up your week is more about personal preference, goals, experience, etc; as long as it isn't completely idiotic then most things will work.

    As far as most optimal routine goes, thebest place for a lifter to find that out is in the gym through trial and error. He won't find it in in these silly threads where people argue about this stuff over and over.
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    Splits doesn't matter is your diet that does
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    you still stimulate multiple muscles with compound movements and even with isolations to some extent. you still end up hitting muscles more then once per week on a bro split.
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    you wonna know why bro, because people look at them FLEX programs and see jay cutler performing 1muscle a day workouts... They dont realise that these guys are juiced into fruits.

    its has been shown that hormonaly, fullbody workouts gives the most response. I would rather say its a natural way of training because human, have,never,in,history, sat down on a chair and isolated their biceps.. that could explain why farmer boys often come out stronger when they go competitive in higher classes

    yet again, as ive said in another thread it depends on if your going for myofribrillare or sarkoplasmatiske hypertrophy, both result in growth just in two different mechanical ways
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    Originally Posted by Jfern689 View Post
    Splits doesn't matter is your diet that does
    Sweet. I'm going to just stop going to the gym, eat right and call it good.
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    whos gonna be the strongest - biggest deadlifter
    the guy that performs it 53 times a year = 1day muscle approach
    the guy that performs it 4x53 times a year = 4days muscles approach

    in my opinion i would say guy nr.2
    what would you guys think?
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    Originally Posted by DjuroV View Post
    whos gonna be the strongest - biggest deadlifter
    the guy that performs it 53 times a year = 1day muscle approach
    the guy that performs it 4x53 times a year = 4days muscles approach

    in my opinion i would say guy nr.2
    what would you guys think?
    Guy 2 would be stronger at deadlifts. Guy 1 would probably have a more balanced physique.

    Also i think its funny that These science people simple brush off "bro splits" as being only for pro bodybuilders. What about fitness models, amateur bodybuilders? Doing steroids and being pro are 2 different things. Most people who do steroids look nothing like pros. So if i do a cycle should i do a bro split, or do i have to get my pro card first? Lol
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    bro split is a term used by idiots, most of whom are small and weak.

    natties who have been training a long time and are advanced can make great progress with such a split. I have. Some may still opt for higher frequency. That works too. The important thing is to have a sound rationale for why you do what you do.

    Most people on this site would not benefit from a high volume bp split, as most people here are not that experienced (which is why we see stupid threads like this one in the first place.)
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    Originally Posted by chadwr85 View Post
    I disagree that you need more volume the more advanced you are
    lol

    silly noob
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    Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick View Post
    lol

    silly noob
    And you would rather deny all science that is right before your eyes. The bro split is just fed to you by muscle magazines including BB.com You are just using bro science if I've ever seen it. I mean C'mon "I had progress on the bro split", again that's a individual example. I also had progress on the bro split but nothing like the upper/lower split. What you don't seem to understand is no matter how hard you work your muscles it takes 48 hours to recover. Get that? Every study says that. And what you don't seem to understand is the bro split causes DOMS, DOMS is structural damage, structural damage is bad, do you understand that? Or has all the bro science got to your head?
    Diet is most of it and of course you will get results off just about any program. But why not hit the muscle 2 or 3 times a week if it only takes 48 hours to recover? Doing the bro split is only slowing your gains by ripping apart your sarcoplasm which is associated with soreness and gains but is actually pain and structural damage.
    And where you're wrong is almost everyone on this site would benefit more from hitting a muscle 2x or 3x a week because we don't juice. And if the bro split was so much better why do NATURAL ATHLETES hit a muscle 2 or 3 times a week and are bigger than either of us and they are faster, stronger, jump higher, etc, etc. You don't have to destroy a muscle to make it grow, just stimulate it.
    You are just arguing with science because you like the bro split more. The bro split is called the bro split for a reason, because only bro's defend it with bro science claiming it's better than 2x or 3x a week despite science and athletes proving otherwise.
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    Originally Posted by chadwr85 View Post
    And you would rather deny all science that is right before your eyes. The bro split is just fed to you by muscle magazines including BB.com You are just using bro science if I've ever seen it. I mean C'mon "I had progress on the bro split", again that's a individual example. I also had progress on the bro split but nothing like the upper/lower split. What you don't seem to understand is no matter how hard you work your muscles it takes 48 hours to recover. Get that? Every study says that. And what you don't seem to understand is the bro split causes DOMS, DOMS is structural damage, structural damage is bad, do you understand that? Or has all the bro science got to your head?
    Diet is most of it and of course you will get results off just about any program. But why not hit the muscle 2 or 3 times a week if it only takes 48 hours to recover? Doing the bro split is only slowing your gains by ripping apart your sarcoplasm which is associated with soreness and gains but is actually pain and structural damage.
    And where you're wrong is almost everyone on this site would benefit more from hitting a muscle 2x or 3x a week because we don't juice. And if the bro split was so much better why do NATURAL ATHLETES hit a muscle 2 or 3 times a week and are bigger than either of us and they are faster, stronger, jump higher, etc, etc. You don't have to destroy a muscle to make it grow, just stimulate it.
    You are just arguing with science because you like the bro split more. The bro split is called the bro split for a reason, because only bro's defend it with bro science claiming it's better than 2x or 3x a week despite science and athletes proving otherwise.
    bro-splits cause DOMS? no **** so does any kind of training untill you adapt to it, and not its isnt structural damage.

    you a ****ing idiot bro splits do not rip apart your "sacroplasm" how did you come to the conclusion?

    please stop trying to sound smart, im not for or against this argument but it should at least be debated by people who know what there talking about.
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    Originally Posted by 7Seconds View Post
    Progression, consistent effort, decent excercise selection, and an appropriate diet is what is important. How you set up your week is more about personal preference, goals, experience, etc; as long as it isn't completely idiotic then most things will work.

    As far as most optimal routine goes, thebest place for a lifter to find that out is in the gym through trial and error. He won't find it in in these silly threads where people argue about this stuff over and over.
    I'd say that the person who applies consistent effort by working the same body part when the muscle recovers, rather than waiting for an extra few days, would probably see more gains.

    Trial and error is all well and good, but it's no good for someone who has no idea to start. A bro split may work better for some people, but considering that the majority of people would see better gains with a little more frequency, it would make sense to start someone out on that kind of programming, and have them branch out from there.


    Originally Posted by DjuroV View Post
    you wonna know why bro, because people look at them FLEX programs and see jay cutler performing 1muscle a day workouts... They dont realise that these guys are juiced into fruits.

    its has been shown that hormonaly, fullbody workouts gives the most response. I would rather say its a natural way of training because human, have,never,in,history, sat down on a chair and isolated their biceps.. that could explain why farmer boys often come out stronger when they go competitive in higher classes

    yet again, as ive said in another thread it depends on if your going for myofribrillare or sarkoplasmatiske hypertrophy, both result in growth just in two different mechanical ways
    Just thought I'd let you know that even for bodybuilders who do 'bodybuilding training', myofibrillar hypertrophy is still the bulk of their hypertrophy. They get a little more sarcoplasmic hypertrophy than the guy who does low reps, but it's not actually a huge difference.


    Originally Posted by DjuroV View Post
    whos gonna be the strongest - biggest deadlifter
    the guy that performs it 53 times a year = 1day muscle approach
    the guy that performs it 4x53 times a year = 4days muscles approach

    in my opinion i would say guy nr.2
    what would you guys think?
    For something like training, where more doesn't necessarily equal better, this is a bit of a redundant approach, because you could just as easily say that the guy who works out 3 times a day makes more gains than the guy who works out 3 times a week, using that logic.

    Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick View Post
    lol

    silly noob
    OP, volume requirements DO change a little as we advance.
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    Bro split probably isn't optimal, but there have been plenty of people who have gained size from it. Natural and non natural alike
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    Originally Posted by alain View Post
    Bro split probably isn't optimal, but there have been plenty of people who have gained size from it. Natural and non natural alike
    i don't think anyone is arguing that you cant make good gains training a muscle once a week.
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    Originally Posted by chadwr85 View Post
    And you would rather deny all science that is right before your eyes. The bro split is just fed to you by muscle magazines including BB.com You are just using bro science if I've ever seen it. I mean C'mon "I had progress on the bro split", again that's a individual example. I also had progress on the bro split but nothing like the upper/lower split. What you don't seem to understand is no matter how hard you work your muscles it takes 48 hours to recover. Get that? Every study says that. And what you don't seem to understand is the bro split causes DOMS, DOMS is structural damage, structural damage is bad, do you understand that? Or has all the bro science got to your head?
    Diet is most of it and of course you will get results off just about any program. But why not hit the muscle 2 or 3 times a week if it only takes 48 hours to recover? Doing the bro split is only slowing your gains by ripping apart your sarcoplasm which is associated with soreness and gains but is actually pain and structural damage.
    And where you're wrong is almost everyone on this site would benefit more from hitting a muscle 2x or 3x a week because we don't juice. And if the bro split was so much better why do NATURAL ATHLETES hit a muscle 2 or 3 times a week and are bigger than either of us and they are faster, stronger, jump higher, etc, etc. You don't have to destroy a muscle to make it grow, just stimulate it.
    You are just arguing with science because you like the bro split more. The bro split is called the bro split for a reason, because only bro's defend it with bro science claiming it's better than 2x or 3x a week despite science and athletes proving otherwise.
    You assume much.

    I have been training for 15 years. I am natty and have been my entire lifting career. I started off with higher frequency. Over time, based on needs, I increased volume per part per session while decreasing frequency (this is a very common approach.) After 7 yrs of serious training, I started a body part split. I have continued to gain proportional size since that time 8 yrs ago. I've gained over 50 lbs of muscle since I began training. I'm not anything special, but that puts me in pretty select company.

    Everything I do has been a result of trial and error and research. I make tweaks as needed to ensure progress. I was not a member of this site at the time I began this type of split, and I was not a regular reader of magazines, so your argument about my reasoning for doing so is incorrect. I am using myself as an example, but there are plenty of other advanced guys using bp splits with success. I am not an anomaly.

    Training needs change over time - this is apparently what you don't get. Not entirely your fault, as you're only 20 and probably have very little real world experience to this point. However, this is no excuse for speaking in absolutes with such rigor when you clearly are misinformed about how more advanced people sometimes train.

    I've read a lot of studies over the years regarding training as well. It's perfectly fine to do so. What you'll find though, is that studies have flaws just as relying entirely on anecdote does. Use a mix of both. Ultimately you need to experiment on yourself, regardless of where you get your information. There is no universal "best" for everyone, and things change based on experience level, as previously noted.

    Here's something else for you to consider regarding your protein synthesis argument:
    Originally Posted by gomez26 View Post
    moderate to low frequency can work well for bodybuilding. people need to stop misinterpreting the protein synthesis data. protein synthesis on a damaged muscle does not simply stop after 48hrs as many appear to believe, its simply more elevated within 48hrs. now the question is - how important is this elevation. what ppl need to understand is that most of the protein activity that gets recorded by these tests is simply due to rebuilding what was torn down, not the building of new muscle tissue.

    hypertrophy due to supercompensation is only a tiny amount compared to synthesis due to compensation. you need to tear down something like 100g of muscle just to build an extra 1g of new muscle. yet studies (such as this one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8563679) consider even an extra 14% to be 'nonsignificant', which is of course the correct thing to do given natural fluctuations & limited precision of testing, but the point is that hypertrophy can occur many days afterwards at lower synthesis rates, not strictly within 2 days as many people believe after reading these studies.

    basically you experience a large spike in synthesis when the body first starts to rebuild what was torn down, the rate then drops but healing of course continues for longer (depending on the extent of damage) until its complete & new growth can occur even later.

    seriously, do people really think that if you havent healed in 2 days that you never will?
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