whats the point of believing in god

[Tamorlane]

the point is, and you might want to jot this down, only the weak need help."

-Dr. Cox

teaching = scrubs = laughter

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

First of all, Buddhism is neither pessimistic nor optimistic. If anything at all, it
is realistic, for it takes a realistic view of life and of the world. It looks at things
objectively (yathabhutam). It does not falsely lull you into living in a fool's paradise,
nor does not frighten and agonize you with all kinds of imaginary fears and sins. It
tells you exactly and objectively what you are and what the world around you is,
and shows you the way to perfect freedom, peace, tranquility and happiness.

One physician may gravely exaggerate an illness and give up hope
altogether. Another may ignorantly declare that there is no illness and that no
treatment is necessary, thus deceiving the patient with false consolation. You may
call the first one pessimistic and the second optimistic. Both are equally dangerous.

But a third physician diagnose the symptoms correctly, understands the cause and
the nature of the illness, see clearly that it can be cured, and courageously
administers a course of treatment, thus saving his patient. The Buddha is like the last
physician. He is the wise and scientific doctor for the ills of the world (Bhisakka or
Bhaisajya-guru).

[Indivdude]

So we are our own gods? Should a serial killer, a serial raper, or some other deranged person rely on himself? Should he follow what is in his heart, which is saying to him "brah, kill kill kill!"

Seems you go from God to godless serial killer rather easily. It'd be interesting if it wasn't the usual comment from people who apparently would go on killing sprees the moment they stopped believing.

Family and even friends can always change. Besides the fact that friends are seeking their own comfort and advantage, not to mention (especially these days) families—especially the abusive and dysfunctional ones. Not saying those are bad things to rely on, but ultimately the source of love and true reliance itself is God. God is entirely selfless, men are not. God is our true protector and helper.

Yes true. Families can be abusive and dysfunctional and the same for friends. However if you don't see these as something to live for when you have a good family, wife/husband, children, a best friend or two, and so on, even if you didn't believe in god, then you're being either very dishonest or very zealous for your belief.

[pkahnman]

How do you know life is not more amazing to the believer in God?

Also, why be amazed at this life is someone is born with major disabilities? If a child has cancer? If someone is in a prison being tortured every day, like in Iran? There are many reasons to be unamazed with this life, what about those people? What about the starving children in Africa with their bones and ribs popping out, their parents dying of aids, themselves dying from having no food? There is no hope, nothing to hold on to. If this world is an "accident," he can't place his hopes and affection on an "accident" of dust. Well, he can, but it won't amount to anything. The only true source of comfort and hope is God, Lord of all men.




With the love of God, one has comfort already. Even in the midst of severe tests and trials he is thankful to God and happy. Why is he happy? Because he has spiritual happiness. With spiritual happiness, nothing can bring one down. His happiness isn't dependent on the material things of this fleeting and temporary world of dust.

How can you believe in God when children are starving right now?

Are you so deluded that you think God lets children starve to show his love? Do you think it's a test to let innocent children starve? Do you not see the logical problems with using children's deaths to prove a point?

[indosthetic]

There is as much of a point in believing in God as not believing.

It all depends on the person.

[Bahai.Lifter]

Seems you go from God to godless serial killer rather easily. It'd be interesting if it wasn't the usual comment from people who apparently would go on killing sprees the moment they stopped believing.

Of the exaggerations were done just to make a point. Here the point being, in this case not that someone will kill, but that humans themselves are selfish, greedy, sinful, wayward, perverse, and misguided. So should we, as humans, turn to our own sinful and very imperfect selves? Is this the right source of guidance? Is this the source of comfort, solace, succor, and hope? Ourselves?—our ignorant, imperfect and sinful selves? Or is a better source our perfect, selfless, all-bountiful, all-loving, all-knowing God?

Yes true. Families can be abusive and dysfunctional and the same for friends. However if you don't see these as something to live for when you have a good family, wife/husband, children, a best friend or two, and so on, even if you didn't believe in god, then you're being either very dishonest or very zealous for your belief.

Living for God doesn't mean you abandon family, friends, etc., in fact it only adds strength and meaning to human relationships.

[Bahai.Lifter]

How can you believe in God when children are starving right now?

How can you believe in man when children are starving right now? It's man's fault, not God's fault.

Are you so deluded that you think God lets children starve to show his love? Do you think it's a test to let innocent children starve? Do you not see the logical problems with using children's deaths to prove a point?

Why such feelings against God? A moment ago, when there was no God, everything was so beautiful and nice to live for on its own. Now that God is suggested, the view changes so fast? I don't understand.

[JohnnyNguyening]

why believe in god? because it allows you to have sex slaves! you can also beat them. sounds like love to me

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

[pkahnman]

How can you believe in man when children are starving right now? It's man's fault, not God's fault.




Why such feelings against God? A moment ago, when there was no God, everything was so beautiful and nice to live for on its own. Now that God is suggested, the view changes so fast? I don't understand.

did i say everything was beautiful? nope

[Indivdude]

Of the exaggerations were done just to make a point. Here the point being, in this case not that someone will kill, but that humans themselves are selfish, greedy, sinful, wayward, perverse, and misguided. So should we, as humans, turn to our own sinful and very imperfect selves? Is this the right source of guidance? Is this the source of comfort, solace, succor, and hope? Ourselves?—our ignorant, imperfect and sinful selves? Or is a better source our perfect, selfless, all-bountiful, all-loving, all-knowing God?

Fine but its an exaggeration that is often used. Humans are greedy, twisted, horrible beings. Sure. However humans are noble, wise, and great as well. People have bad and good qualities. Some have more bad or good qualities. Just the way it goes. You can see a man giving a homeless man a few dollars on the same street you'll see a man snatch a woman's purse.

However this doesn't mean that just because humans, in general, have some bad qualities that we must have a god that has no bad qualities that we should worship. There is no real evidence to show us that god exists and he is blameless and that we should worship him.

So yes we should turn to humans for moral support and comfort since its all we got.

Living for God doesn't mean you abandon family, friends, etc., in fact it only adds strength and meaning to human relationships.

I didn't mean to imply that it did but it sounded like you meant that god gives all meaning to life. Thus family, friends and any other thing or person in peoples' lives mean nothing without god. That's a bit far since even without god, your mom, wife, friends, etc have to mean something to you. I know they do to me (not your mom or wife/girlfriend. No yo mama joke here).

[Bahai.Lifter]

I didn't mean to imply that it did but it sounded like you meant that god gives all meaning to life. Thus family, friends and any other thing or person in peoples' lives mean nothing without god. That's a bit far since even without god, your mom, wife, friends, etc have to mean something to you. I know they do to me (not your mom or wife/girlfriend. No yo mama joke here).

The strongest type of love in this world is the love of God, it is stronger than the bond of love between organisms. I didn't say other relationships have no meaning, just that God gives greater meaning to life. The love of God I think is a much stronger bond than the physical one seen in both humans and animals.

Animals in nature only have the organismal bond and nothing higher. But humans are capable of something higher, the spiritual bond. The material bond is very superficial and changes easily. Probably many, or rather the majority, of relationships are based on only the physical aspect. This is not the strongest bond. That's why we see as the importance of religion in society declines, you see an increase in divorce. People may marry a women because she's beautiful, but in 10 years when she starts getting old he might look for the younger girls. I'm not saying divorce doesn't happen among "religious" people, but then again as materialism and hedonism are promoted in society and love of God is de-emphasized, that affects everyone including religionists that are not able to distance themselves from the materialistic parts of the culture.


Here the love between humans beings is explained:

There are four kinds of love. ... The fourth is the love of man for man. The love which exists between the hearts of believers is prompted by the ideal of the unity of spirits. This love is attained through the knowledge of God, so that men see the Divine Love reflected in the heart. Each sees in the other the Beauty of God reflected in the soul, and finding this point of similarity, they are attracted to one another in love. This love will make all men the waves of one sea, this love will make them all the stars of one heaven and the fruits of one tree. This love will bring the realization of true accord, the foundation of real unity.

But the love which sometimes exists between friends is not (true) love, because it is subject to transmutation; this is merely fascination. As the breeze blows, the slender trees yield. If the wind is in the East the tree leans to the West, and if the wind turns to the West the tree leans to the East. This kind of love is originated by the accidental conditions of life. This is not love, it is merely acquaintanceship; it is subject to change.

Today you will see two souls apparently in close friendship; tomorrow all this may be changed. Yesterday they were ready to die for one another, today they shun one another’s society! This is not love; it is the yielding of the hearts to the accidents of life. When that which has caused this ‘love’ to exist passes, the love passes also; this is not in reality love.

Love is only of the four kinds that I have explained. (a) The love of God towards the identity of God. Christ has said God is Love. (b) The love of God for His children—for His servants. (c) The love of man for God and (d) the love of man for man. These four kinds of love originate from God. These are rays from the Sun of Reality; these are the Breathings of the Holy Spirit; these are the Signs of the Reality.

(‘Abdu’l-Bah�, Paris Talks, pp. 180–81)

[KiwiBro2]

Lack of physical, reproducible, and measurable evidence?

Strong atheist argument. Try reproduce the big bang. Put nothing in a jar, vacuum it and wait for it to explode. Hmmm. 100 billion years later I guarantee it won't have exploded. Yeah the big bang is not physical, reproducible, and measurable.

The big bang is a theory with no evidence.

[_TG_]

the myth of immortality

[Xhale12]

Maybe in more primitive times but as society progresses and seeing as how information is spreading much more quickly, the number of people who turn to religion for answers will surely dwindle into non existence.

Religion is a useless vestige of archaic and barbaric times and has no place in any modern civilization except to make the practitioner simply "feel" better.

And tell me what place Science has in modern civilization....

Sure we have electricity, go to the moon, can call each other on the phone.... yet the vast majority of people in the world are living miserable lives despite all the constant scientific/technological advancements.

[Singularity7]

Not saying those are bad things to rely on, but ultimately the source of love and true reliance itself is God. God is entirely selfless, men are not. God is our true protector and helper.

So what about the millions of people who died throughout time with their prayers going unanswered by this caring, loving god?
Sounds legit to me.

[WilliamBo91]

The fact of the matter is, why are you atheists only focusing on the PHYSICAL proving of God, and not focusing on the selfless, love aspect? What is so wrong about training yourself to be selfless and loving?


"The wise don't make a show of their knowledge, but fools broadcast their foolishness."
- Proverbs 12:23

[frontofthepack]

The fact of the matter is, why are you atheists only focusing on the PHYSICAL proving of God, and not focusing on the selfless, love aspect? What is so wrong about training yourself to be selfless and loving?

I wouldn't attribute that to God.

[WilliamBo91]

I wouldn't attribute that to God.

Well you are entitled to your opinion, at the end of the day it's only a belief, right? Lets just let the fruit of our lives speak for themselves.

[TruKnight]

whats the point of anyhting op.

also, your barbell has more of a gravitational affect on you than any of the planets. I suggest you ditch astrology and devise a new belief system based on how ofen you do or do not lift.

[Singularity7]

The fact of the matter is, why are you atheists only focusing on the PHYSICAL proving of God, and not focusing on the selfless, love aspect? What is so wrong about training yourself to be selfless and loving?


"The wise don't make a show of their knowledge, but fools broadcast their foolishness."
- Proverbs 12:23

Not all atheists focus on proving god fake (Physical). Actually there atheists that like to debate the love aspect of religion.

Not all Christians certainly love all. Some Christians and others have spread the misconceptions of atheists being devils. Of course this does not apply to all.
Though who would be more hated if you saw two people wearing these shirts? Be honest.
-Someone wearing a shirt that says, 'I am an atheist, there is no god' etc.
-Someone wearing a shirt that says, 'I am Christian, I love god' etc.
Who would be looked at with more contempt and given stares?
Atheists are one of the most disliked groups in America.

[hassel35]

Strong atheist argument. Try reproduce the big bang. Put nothing in a jar, vacuum it and wait for it to explode. Hmmm. 100 billion years later I guarantee it won't have exploded. Yeah the big bang is not physical, reproducible, and measurable.

The big bang is a theory with no evidence.

Strong this.

I understand this does not apply to all atheists. However many use that type of argument to disprove god.

Rather than point to whether it did or didn't, let's look at this...

what if creative expression in consciousness, meaning us and god (however it fits in your mind) , were actually the driving force behind the big bang? Can anyone disprove the concept that we, ready for physical experience, generated the big bang?

If there was nothing before the big bang... What started it? What exploded or imploded to make this bang that was so big?

Who was the observer of this act? Is there separation from the observer of the bang, and that or those who experienced it?

If a scientist doesn't experience something or can't explain it, can it still exist? Did calculus exist before the young scholar learned about it? How is it that one thing is possible in the mind of one man, impossible in that of another?

Understand the difference between something existing, and something existing in your perception of reality.

But understand also why we have those differences in perspective.


What is your goal? If it was to learn truth... Does restricting your mindset bring you closer or further away from truth??

Here's an example..

Bob is a devout practitioner of a certain religion. He finds resonance with the beliefs held there. He comes across information that is counter to what's shared in his church group. He condemns this information was disruptive to his faith, maybe sinful or etc depending on his beliefs. He disregards it, continues his practices just the same.

Randy is a devout, logic oriented scientist. Let's say he is atheist. He finds resonance with the beliefs there. He comes across information which is counter to what's upheld in his science atheist group. It doesn't fit with their models and theories... Rather adds confusion, counter productive to their progress. The information is condemned, disregarded. He continues his practices just the same?

My question to you is, which man is closer to the truth?

Well, each is very close to their truth. Their perspective, their reality.

But what about learning?? Ever expanding truths??

Both men exercise a quest in ego, not truth or ultimate learning. Their ego prevents them from accepting anything outside their box. Both atheist and theist have just as much potential to be ignorant, irrational.

Mind you it is part of the play for men to vary their existences. The theist, atheist, neither one has a more pure, realistic, honest belief. Their belief is their belief.

But in terms of learning, and truths. This is a path where ego needs to be dropped at the door. It will blind you. You are not only your thoughts, your body, your emotions. These things are a part of you, but there is awareness before any of these. There is consciousness.

In terms of learning highest form of universal truths, ego and identification will only serve to limit you.

Understand you are not your thoughts. There is first awareness. If you can't separate your awareness from your thoughts, you can't really take a step back to acknowledge a bigger perspective of observation.

Your thoughts, emotions, etc will drown you. Understanding your awareness frees you.. Because you can drop limiting beliefs and thoughts, allowing you to see so much more.

This isn't a matter of a god saving you and this and that. Although it could be, if it was important to your experience.

It's about perspective, the opportunity to shift perspectives and how the shifting can affect what is and is not relevant or possible in your reality.

Regards
Hassel

[Singularity7]

Strong atheist argument. Try reproduce the big bang. Put nothing in a jar, vacuum it and wait for it to explode. Hmmm. 100 billion years later I guarantee it won't have exploded. Yeah the big bang is not physical, reproducible, and measurable.

The big bang is a theory with no evidence.

You and your dull thinking again.
The evidence for the big bang theory is substantial.
The main pieces of observational evidence.
-redshift of galaxies
-the cosmic microwave background
-the growth of large scale structure over time
-the primordial abundances of helium and lithium.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyCkADmNdNo
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE420.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Ban...ional_evidence
http://www.allaboutscience.org/big-bang-theory.htm
Also the big bang isn't an explosion it was an expansion. Anyone who knows anything basic of the big bang would know this. Obviously you don't as you always come into a thread with little information on the subject your debating.

Do you do all your researching on creationism.org or whatever?

[Bahai.Lifter]

So what about the millions of people who died throughout time with their prayers going unanswered by this caring, loving god?
Sounds legit to me.

Prayers especially if sincere are answered, but not always in the way we want. Certainly doesn't mean they weren't answered. If everyone prayed to become billionaires, obviously that wouldn't work out too well because then no one would clean the streets, drive the buses, fly the planes, etc. Everything would come to a standstill. That's why we have our trust in God, and accept whatever He gives, because we know that it is the best thing for us in this life even if we can't see it. On top of that, since we are unwise, we not rarely pray for things which ultimately harm us. God is All-Knowing, All-Wise; it would be a blessing for us that He doesn't answer such prayers in His Omniscience, at least the way we want!

[jf1]

It comes down to the reward of "everlasting life".
The carrot at the end of the stick.

"Step right up, dont use your brains, just have faith!
Win a ticket to heaven to be with Jeebus for eternity!"

[Singularity7]

Prayers especially if sincere are answered, but not always in the way we want. Certainly doesn't mean they weren't answered. If everyone prayed to become billionaires, obviously that wouldn't work out too well because then no one would clean the streets, drive the buses, fly the planes, etc. Everything would come to a standstill. That's why we have our trust in God, and accept whatever He gives, because we know that it is the best thing for us in this life even if we can't see it.

So in the end prayers are still unanswered and people die. That says a lot for the people who died in terror and resorted to praying and faith. The sheer amount of people praying for the misfortune of people they hate are staggering and if they were answered my my.

[Bahai.Lifter]

So in the end prayers are still unanswered and people die. That says a lot for the people who died in terror and resorted to praying and faith. The sheer amount of people praying for the misfortune of people they hate are staggering and if they were answered my my.

Exactly, some people may pray for misfortune of others, another reason why God wouldn't answer every prayer the way people want. Or if every women prayed to be Miss Universe, that obviously couldn't happen. There are some prayers that couldn't be answered in the way we want practically speaking. If a prayer is sincere, God will answer it always.

Spirit has influence; prayer has spiritual effect. Therefore, we pray, “O God! Heal this sick one!” Perchance God will answer. Does it matter who prays? God will answer the prayer of every servant if that prayer is urgent. His mercy is vast, illimitable. He answers the prayers of all His servants. He answers the prayer of this plant. The plant prays potentially, “O God! Send me rain!” God answers the prayer, and the plant grows. God will answer anyone. He answers prayers potentially. Before we were born into this world did we not pray, “O God! Give me a mother; give me two fountains of bright milk; purify the air for my breathing; grant me rest and comfort; prepare food for my sustenance and living”? Did we not pray potentially for these needed blessings before we were created? When we came into this world, did we not find our prayers answered? Did we not find mother, father, food, light, home and every other necessity and blessing, although we did not actually ask for them? Therefore, it is natural that God will give to us when we ask Him. His mercy is all-encircling.

But we ask for things which the divine wisdom does not desire for us, and there is no answer to our prayer. His wisdom does not sanction what we wish. We pray, “O God! Make me wealthy!” If this prayer were universally answered, human affairs would be at a standstill. There would be none left to work in the streets, none to till the soil, none to build, none to run the trains. Therefore, it is evident that it would not be well for us if all prayers were answered. The affairs of the world would be interfered with, energies crippled and progress hindered. But whatever we ask for which is in accord with divine wisdom, God will answer. Assuredly!

For instance, a very feeble patient may ask the doctor to give him food which would be positively dangerous to his life and condition. He may beg for roast meat. The doctor is kind and wise. He knows it would be dangerous to his patient so he refuses to allow it. The doctor is merciful; the patient, ignorant. Through the doctor’s kindness the patient recovers; his life is saved. Yet the patient may cry out that the doctor is unkind, not good, because he refuses to answer his pleading.

God is merciful. In His mercy He answers the prayers of all His servants when according to His supreme wisdom it is necessary.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/P...-87.html#pg246

[Singularity7]

Exactly, some people may pray for misfortune of others, another reason why God wouldn't answer every prayer the way people want. Or if every women prayed to be Miss Universe, that obviously couldn't happen. There are some prayers that couldn't be answered in the way we want practically speaking. If a prayer is sincere, God will answer it always.

Billions of prayers everyday if answered would contradict an enormous amount.
If an omnibenevolent and omniscient god would already be aware of your problems and know what you want. Then it could be regarded as good or evil by god. Though if it was good why didn't he wish it already? If it is evil why would god grant you it?
How would you know which peoples prayers were sincere? Do you know what god wants from them personally?
Miracles let's not get started with them.

Edit: You also have a new thread that is devoted to you again, if you weren't aware of it.

[djdizzydave]

[QUOTE=notorius1;1013891113]You theists seem to blame everything on the inherent imperfection of humans QUOTE]

HUMANS are imperfect and we make many mistakes. So yeah when something great happens in our life I/we thank God for the blessing. What does not make sense about that?????

[F1exAppeal]

All beings are in 'hell' as this existence is continuous suffering that we are stuck into until awakening to true reality. Not a perceived reality like you possess right now.



That is a choice. But remember that people who put their faith in God or Nirvana are gravitating towards something permanent in nature - infinite - timeless. As a self-proclaimed atheist, it is very likely that you put your faith in impermanent things and lack understanding to the causes of your own 'hell', or self-inflicted suffering.

all conditioned things are impermanent
all conditioned things are unsatisfactory
all things are not self
when one sees this with wisdom
one turns away from suffering
-the Dhammapada

Um you realize someone can be atheist and still be religious/spiritual right? You're just assuming he's putting faith in impermanent things, I'm atheist yet still buddhist, you mad??

[Tamorlane]

Um you realize someone can be atheist and still be religious/spiritual right? You're just assuming he's putting faith in impermanent things, I'm atheist yet still buddhist, you mad??

No I couldn't care less. Take notice of me saying 'it is very likely' and not just 'you put your faith' as an absolute. And not really sure you can be a Buddhist and not understand the unconditioned nirvana aka third noble truth.

[Bahai.Lifter]

Billions of prayers everyday if answered would contradict an enormous amount.

Indeed, so God answers, in His infinite Wisdom, in the way He desires to answer.

If an omnibenevolent and omniscient god would already be aware of your problems and know what you want. Then it could be regarded as good or evil by god. Though if it was good why didn't he wish it already? If it is evil why would god grant you it?
How would you know which peoples prayers were sincere? Do you know what god wants from them personally?
Miracles let's not get started with them.

I think prayer is much more than just asking for something, it is deeper, communion with God. There are mysteries in it that we are unaware of for sure, but communion itself with Him (through prayer) establishes a stronger spiritual connection, and makes us more wise, more mindful, and so on. In such a state, we can better go through life with actions which will benefit us. For example, we won't perhaps make as many mistakes and have to pray for those mistakes to be fixed. Say someone prays for help with passing a test, but he is always fearful at the time of tests and forgets everything he studied. But if he reads the holy scriptures, communes with God, and so on, he will eventually come to realize that God will help a servant achieve anything if he puts his trust in God and knows that He will help him through. Therefore there would be no more problem, no more fear. This is just one example, my point being that prayer or communion with God, in the Bah�'� view, is much more complex than simply asking and getting I believe. It helps us spiritually grow and prosper.