"The Great Bodybuilding Debate" - Ian McCarthy and Dave Pulcinella

[Daewoo_Lanos]

I eat and train the way I do because I love it. I don't care about the end result. I balance my life well because I'm an adult with a ****ing brain.

I eat 6-7 times a day with extreme ease and simple preparation.

**** Ian and his total lack of ability to practice what he preaches.

this

also, i dont care how many studies say it should be otherwise, but the same exact amount of food split into 6 meals keeps me leaner than eating it in 3. i've tried it all, and the only time a certain number of cals eaten in 3 meals kept me as lean as eating them in 6 meals was when i tried lean gains and fasted 2/3 of the day.

this is fact. i dont give a sht what some know it all decides to parrot from his soapbox after studying the work of people who actually come close to knowing it all. and 6 meals a day is a joke to prepare. if it alters your life in some dramatic way then you have epically piss poor time management.

annoying little sht. at least look the part.

[PillClinton]

I appreciate that you can approach it with perspective, but lots don't. Tons of younger kids get hooked on lifting/dieting and take it to the extreme which results in EDs and consumption of their life.

I think Ian approaches it the wrong way, but I'm a firm believer in eating/lifting in a way you enjoy. Whether that be 10 meals a day or two, as long as you approach it rationally then you are probably fine. Lifting/fitness/health should be a lifelong pursuit and eating in a schedule that you hate is counterproductive to that. I see too many people quit because they think the lifestyle is too demanding. While there are demands, everyone should find their own balance and learn how to fit it into their life. Consistency and effort goes a long way

great way to put it.

I used to take it to a more extreme place (not at the level of a ED, though). Now i just eat 3-4 times a day, lift 4 times a week, making gains, and happy about the progress. Its a lot less stressful to be so fuking intent on a certain way and i find life flows a lot better

God it feels good growing up, lol

[zmcdole]

this video puts things into a slightly different perspective, but he agrees with what Ian says in regards to meal frequency.


THink about it this way fellas. Let's say bodybuilder Joe needs to 3,000 calories to maintain his weight and he decides to bulk on 3,500. He's eating at a 500 calorie surplus. How will he gain more weight if he eats that amount spread out over 2-4 meals vs. eating 3500 calories spread out over 6 meals? How could he be leaner eating that amount via more frequent meals? It's just not possible. 3500 calories is 3500 calories. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. At the end of the day Joe is still intaking 3500 calories. Even if he ate it all at once right before bed he still wouldn't gain anymore weight than he would if he spread it out over the course of 6 meals because the energy balance would be the same. He burned 3,000 cals but he took in 3500 giving him a surplus of 500. That surplus stays exactly the same regardless of meal frequency.

I know you'll say, "Trust me bro, I actually tried it." I bet you did, but I also bet there were quite a few other factors that weren't accounted for. mathematically what you guys are saying is not possible based on the laws of thermodynamics of the human body.

You can certainly eat in anyway you want and you should do what's best for you, but meal frequency is completely irrelevant whether one way or another is convenient or easier for you or not.

[BartPimpson]

I eat about 6 a day. I don't believe it burns fat more, but I feel like **** every time I go for more than a few hours without eating something.

[Groggery]

Serious question - how do folks eat that frequently with a job? Once before going, once during, once after is what's common here, but sure as hell no employer would allow you to munch several times a day.

[Zachary533]

Serious question - how do folks eat that frequently with a job? Once before going, once during, once after is what's common here, but sure as hell no employer would allow you to munch several times a day.

Manage a supplement store-

6 meals a day checkin in...

I also believe its better having that sort of frequency- but that's personal preference.

Meal frequency may not have any direct effects, but meal timing sure does.

[LegosInMyEgos]

Meal frequency may not have any direct effects, but meal timing sure does.

what?

[Groggery]

Manage a supplement store-

Try doing that in retail. They expect you to chow down on beef in 15 minutes.

[Loctus]

Meal frequency may not have any direct effects, but meal timing sure does.

You just went full retard bro

[DPNZ]

I work at a computer. As does my wife. We eat whenever we like.

Eat when I wake up, get to work early: eat again, lunch at 12, shake and oats at 3, pre-workout crap, eat after the gym, then another meal before bed.

Voila.

[lancs_hotpot]

For example, that Cody Lewis fella. Do you guys think he's wasting his time? My guess is you'd argue that he's living the dream.

I think we know for sure he's all in.



But I don't think there's many here who think he's gonna make it.

And if he does get that pro card, what's that mean? Nothing really unless you're a Phil Heath, Dexter Jackson, Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler etc.

Just for fun, lets guess where he'll be in 15 years after gunning for the pro card doing whatever it takes and deciding he's had enough. My guess is his body will be pretty beat up and his endocrine system will be shot forcing him to be on HRT for the rest of his life. He'll look like he's never even touched a weight and he'll have nothing to show for it except for a few medals and trophies. But hey, if that's his dream, live and let live. Just isn't the life I'd wanna lead or try to live if I wasn't blowing people away on stage from the beginning.

I agree with that prediction. Eating 6 meals a day to stay bug and strong isnt gonna ruin anything unless you let it, its not a hard thing to balance out with your life. But if youre trying to do what it takes to be pro and have no chance then yeah waste if time and probably health. I realised long ago i would never follow in Dorians footsteps, its common sense. Again, why should he give a ****? Its not a big problem.

[Rambo26]

I work in an office and sit eating

in fact when bulking I spent at least 5 hours solidly eating at work (very serious)

[Devils]

You can easily fit 600-800 calories in a shake so I don't see a problem with time management if you're trying to gain weight.

You could have 2 meals a day and 3 shakes, as long as macro's are good it's not going to make a huge difference. There would be a slight loss of thermogenic effect from digesting solid food but it wouldn't make much of an impact.

[SupaaJ]

Bro science or not. Find me some top body builders that do allllll the bs touted as science around here.

What I am looking for, since we all know it "works as well."

1) full body routine
2) eats 1-2 big meals a day
3) has no protein at all for 20 hours


^ sure sounds like a ton of successful professional, amateur and gym rats.

Gtfo. Every gym in every state, in every country, the successful guys are split training and eating protein often. Bunch of parrots around here spouting stupid science done on my grandma, or her pet rat. I'll take the advice of every successful person with a physique better than a swimmers advice.

[XShreddedX]

I follow IIFYM, but i prefer to eat clean, and since i prefer to eat clean I usually end up eating multiple smaller meals since most of the food isn't calorically dense, but i abide by the principles of IIFYM so i can still have a life, best of both worlds imo

[stealth_swimmer]

this video puts things into a slightly different perspective, but he agrees with what Ian says in regards to meal frequency.


THink about it this way fellas. Let's say bodybuilder Joe needs to 3,000 calories to maintain his weight and he decides to bulk on 3,500. He's eating at a 500 calorie surplus. How will he gain more weight if he eats that amount spread out over 2-4 meals vs. eating 3500 calories spread out over 6 meals? How could he be leaner eating that amount via more frequent meals? It's just not possible. 3500 calories is 3500 calories. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. At the end of the day Joe is still intaking 3500 calories. Even if he ate it all at once right before bed he still wouldn't gain anymore weight than he would if he spread it out over the course of 6 meals because the energy balance would be the same. He burned 3,000 cals but he took in 3500 giving him a surplus of 500. That surplus stays exactly the same regardless of meal frequency.

I know you'll say, "Trust me bro, I actually tried it." I bet you did, but I also bet there were quite a few other factors that weren't accounted for. mathematically what you guys are saying is not possible based on the laws of thermodynamics of the human body.

You can certainly eat in anyway you want and you should do what's best for you, but meal frequency is completely irrelevant whether one way or another is convenient or easier for you or not.

It is possible, and *you* may not be factoring in everything. It's possible it changes *body composition* rather than just body *weight* - and I recall an interview with Dr. Connelly (the creator of Met-Rx, though this interview was done after he was no longer owner of the company) where he talked about studies showing that people who simply ate a larger % of their calories from protein, improved body composition. They lost fat and gained muscle, especially if their protein intake was lower and they started eating 35% of their calories from protein.

Much of the time, this has to do with what hormones get produced in the body and such.

[wolfpilp]

pretty interesting talk here.!! Good points guys!

[Lvisaa2]

It is possible, and *you* may not be factoring in everything. It's possible it changes *body composition* rather than just body *weight* - and I recall an interview with Dr. Connelly (the creator of Met-Rx, though this interview was done after he was no longer owner of the company) where he talked about studies showing that people who simply ate a larger % of their calories from protein, improved body composition. They lost fat and gained muscle, especially if their protein intake was lower and they started eating 35% of their calories from protein.

Much of the time, this has to do with what hormones get produced in the body and such.

No one is claiming that macronutrient composition won't affect body composition. But I can almost guarantee that study was comparing people with insufficient protein intakes to people with sufficient ones. No one here is arguing that you shouldn't have a sufficient protein intake and tbqh, that isn't relevant to a population of athletes with high protein intake already such as bodybuilders.

[Groggery]

I work in an office and sit eating

in fact when bulking I spent at least 5 hours solidly eating at work (very serious)

How do you people not get in **** due to this? Quite serious, very interested. Must be some lax employers out there.

[Daewoo_Lanos]

How do you people not get in **** due to this? Quite serious, very interested. Must be some lax employers out there.

i think it's pretty normal.

i'd say the shock would be in someone not being allowed to ingest anything at all in an 8 hour period outside of a specified 60 minute window.

[Groggery]

i think it's pretty normal.

i'd say the shock would be in someone not being allowed to ingest anything at all in an 8 hour period outside of a specified 60 minute window.

That's the standard around here, and you don't really see a lot of big dudes in the area.

[Daewoo_Lanos]

That's the standard around here, and you don't really see a lot of big dudes in the area.

there are ways around it. if you're allowed to drink water, you can just bring in a bottle that happens to be pre-mixed with whey. if someone gives u any sht, say you're thirsty and wanted some chocolate milk (to avoid the meathead bias).

i'd lol if i wasnt allowed to eat or drink. i'd be going to the bathroom 4 times a day smuggling food to eat in a stall.

[Zachary533]

One article that I can think of ontop of my head:

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training

Roy, B. D., M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall, J. Fowles, and K. E. Yarasheski. Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training. J. Appl. Physiol. 82(6): 1882–1888, 1997.—We determined the effect of the timing of glucose supplementation on fractional muscle protein synthetic rate (FSR), urinary urea excretion, and whole body and myofibrillar protein degradation after resistance exercise. Eight healthy men performed unilateral knee extensor exercise (8 sets/∼10 repetitions/∼85% of 1 single maximal repetition). They received a carbohydrate (CHO) supplement (1 g/kg) or placebo (Pl) immediately (t = 0 h) and 1 h (t = +1 h) postexercise. FSR was determined for exercised (Ex) and control (Con) limbs by incrementalL-[1-13C]leucine enrichment into the vastus lateralis over ∼10 h postexercise. Insulin was greater (P < 0.01) at 0.5, 0.75, 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, and 2 h, and glucose was greater (P < 0.05) at 0.5 and 0.75 h for CHO compared with Pl condition. FSR was 36.1% greater in the CHO/Ex leg than in the CHO/Con leg (P = not significant) and 6.3% greater in the Pl/Ex leg than in the Pl/Con leg (P = not significant). 3-Methylhistidine excretion was lower in the CHO (110.43 ± 3.62 μmol/g creatinine) than Pl condition (120.14 ± 5.82,P < 0.05) as was urinary urea nitrogen (8.60 ± 0.66 vs. 12.28 ± 1.84 g/g creatinine,P < 0.05). This suggests that CHO supplementation (1 g/kg) immediately and 1 h after resistance exercise can decrease myofibrillar protein breakdown and urinary urea excretion, resulting in a more positive body protein balance.

Source: Journal of Applied Physiology.

If you don't think timing your post-workout meal is important, YOU have just gone full retard.

[JanesLastResort]

I'm dieting at the moment and i'm still eating like.... 2 meals a day. If i had 6 meals i'd end up having to cook in bulk or very frequently. I like my food fresh :3

But yes, meal frequency makes no difference other than some people may find it hard to go hours without food and some don't. Eventually, you eat the same amount of calories in 24 hours and if the process of losing weight takes a halt then there's a factor or two that you're not taking into account. Like zmc said, you can't deny the rules of thermodynamics, period.

Meal timing/carb timing may have an effect on your workout and will definitely have an effect if you are dieting.

Cliffs:
-do whatever the fuk you want to do.

[GetMassive99]

How do you people not get in **** due to this? Quite serious, very interested. Must be some lax employers out there.

Multi-tasking. Quite easy to eat and work at the same time!

[stealth_swimmer]

No one is claiming that macronutrient composition won't affect body composition. But I can almost guarantee that study was comparing people with insufficient protein intakes to people with sufficient ones. No one here is arguing that you shouldn't have a sufficient protein intake and tbqh, that isn't relevant to a population of athletes with high protein intake already such as bodybuilders.

My point is that you can lose weight while gaining muscle, or gain weight while losing fat...just harder to do. Seems to be that gaining bodyweight makes gaining muscle easier and losing bodyweight makes losing fat easier.

[Lvisaa2]

One article that I can think of ontop of my head:

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training



Source: Journal of Applied Physiology.

If you don't think timing your post-workout meal is important, YOU have just gone full retard.

You do realize that without a looking at the long-term balance, as this study only investigated 10 hours post-exercise, then that is far from being conclusive about anything past that ten hour window. And if I'm looking at this correctly one was given glucose while the other received nothing(a placebo) and you are surprised that the first group had a greater protein balance? What about when the other group actually eats? What about a compensatory effect? Realistically, who do you know that doesn't eat for 10 hours post-workout?

I would critique further, but on my phone and at work. So it'd be a task to get to my school site and find the full text.

[Loctus]

One article that I can think of ontop of my head:

Effect of glucose supplement timing on protein metabolism after resistance training



Source: Journal of Applied Physiology.

If you don't think timing your post-workout meal is important, YOU have just gone full retard.

LOL **** off. They gave one half carbs and one half placebo? In other words; one half got calories and one didn't.

AAAAAAAND in other news: eating anything after working out will yield a better response than eating nothing.

Brilliant.

[Brofessional]

Bro science or not. Find me some top body builders that do allllll the bs touted as science around here.

What I am looking for, since we all know it "works as well."

1) full body routine
2) eats 1-2 big meals a day
3) has no protein at all for 20 hours


^ sure sounds like a ton of successful professional, amateur and gym rats.

Gtfo. Every gym in every state, in every country, the successful guys are split training and eating protein often. Bunch of parrots around here spouting stupid science done on my grandma, or her pet rat. I'll take the advice of every successful person with a physique better than a swimmers advice.

This this this.

Funny how the people pushing that stuff usually don't look like bodybuilders either.

[Lvisaa2]

How about Manu(PBateman2)? He does things unconventionally and is strong as an ox and looks damn good.

And also, I got this lean pretty easily by eating 2 or 3 meals a day(from last May). I'm far from impressive, but I don't have that much time of training under my belt, still under 3 years of the first time I picked up a weight and I spent a year and a half of that not knowing anything about real training/nutrition.