Powerlifting / Bodybuilding going from one to another

[Blazerboy777]

Got a question.
Scenario, 2 guys 1 body builder and 1 powerlifter, both about the same size.

Body builder can 1 rep max 300 on bench, and deadlift 450.
Powerlifter can 1 rep max 450 on bench and deadlift 700.

Naturally the powerlifter would be able to rep out higher weight than the body builder if he chose to do so.

Now the question.

Bodybuilder reps out 225 x 10 reps.
Powerlifter reps out 325 x 10 reps.

Following a patern like this, would the body builder gain muscle faster? Or would they both increase size etc at the same rate?

[Concat]

How much creatine are they taking?

[Blazerboy777]

Minimal creatine intake, like 3 grams a day.

[SexyBack1]

In natural bodybuilding if all other variables are equal the person using more weight will have greater potential to increase their mass because they will be able to create more overload and greater muscle damage, evoking a greater growth response.

[Blazerboy777]

In natural bodybuilding if all other variables are equal the person using more weight will have greater potential to increase their mass because they will be able to create more overload and greater muscle damage, evoking a greater growth response.

If both pushed till failure, wouldnt the damage, and overload be almost the same? Just the same as @ those stats, the powerlifter wouldnt gain anything 1 rep maxing the body builders 1rm, but the body builder would. They would be on different scales.

[Blazerboy777]

I am asking because when I first started to workout, I had decided to push my strength to the absolute maximum I could naturally in 9 months. Its been just about 9 months, and can 1rm 335 and was deciding whether to push that to 350 and then cut back and aim for 8-12 reps @ say, 300. Or to just cut back now and to rep out about 265.

Edit: 315 1rm on regular bench, 335 x 1 on assisted bench. Prefer to use assisted when training alone. Lets me train till failure without worrying about anything.

[Concat]

I was joking about the creatine.

I'm almost thinking the powerlifter would increase faster, but not because he is using more weight... he's just not used to training for hypertrophy. Kinda like noob gains?

[SexyBack1]

If both pushed till failure, wouldnt the damage, and overload be almost the same? No Just the same as @ those stats, the powerlifter wouldnt gain anything 1 rep maxing the body builders 1rm, but the body builder would. They would be on different scales. effort would be same, results wouldnt... Simply more weight = more growth potential due greater muscle damage(450lbx10 squats does more damage than 300lbx10 squats, thus the need for longer recovery duration).

Answers in bold

[Blazerboy777]

The thing about noob gains, that does indeed make sense.

So...
Should I do another 3 months of strength training and then get to hypertrophy? Or would it better to shoot for hypertrophy? Iv started repping for hypertrophy about 2 weeks ago, and im toning out at a crazy pace. Starting to see muscle fibers that are present in the "ripped" look. Kinda crazy.

[Concat]

Do whatever you want, man. Experimentation isn't a bad thing. You could do strength one week, hypertrophy the next week. You'll find something that works and perhaps more importantly, something you like and keeps your motivation up.

[Blazerboy777]

Do whatever you want, man. Experimentation isn't a bad thing. You could do strength one week, hypertrophy the next week. You'll find something that works and perhaps more importantly, something you like and keeps your motivation up.

If I did strength / hypertrophy split like you said. Would the results be sub-par?
Iv started trying a split which includes:
1 set of warmup 10% of weight @ 15-20 reps.
1 set of 50% @ 10 reps
1 set of 100% @ 1 rep
2 sets of 75-80% @ 8-10

Any comments on that?

[DerekEt]

Where in California do you live/train? I'm in the East Bay. Just curious.

Also, the better option for "size" would be to simply train in the 6-8 or 8-10 rep range and get as strong as possible,as fast as possible in that rep range instead of asking all these questions.

Get your bench from 315x6-8 to 405x6-8 and you will see a huge difference. Keep your training in the higher rep range while doing so.

[Blazerboy777]

Where in California do you live/train? I'm in the East Bay. Just curious.

Also, the better option for "size" would be to simply train in the 6-8 or 8-10 rep range and get as strong as possible,as fast as possible in that rep range instead of asking all these questions.

Get your bench from 315x6-8 to 405x6-8 and you will see a huge difference. Keep your training in the higher rep range while doing so.

Will take some time to even hit 315 x 8. Im doing about 315 x 4. I can proly hit 8 within a month. Jumping to 405 is a massive increase haha. Even if I could 1rm 405, I would be extremely happy.

I live / train in Los Angeles county, more specifically, san fernando valley.

[sharpieblet]

If the goal is to get more definition just do whichever routine you want and reduce cal intake, that simple. If goal is size id combine elements of both, you'll get good results and still get good strength. If I could only choose one I'd stick with moderately higher reps but it's wise to do both.

[InspecktaDeck]

Powerlifter can 1 rep max 300 on bench and deadlift 325.

Thats one hell of a stubby arm manlet.

[PinkNgreen]

Stopped reading at powerlifter can deadlift 325

[Blazerboy777]

If the goal is to get more definition just do whichever routine you want and reduce cal intake, that simple. If goal is size id combine elements of both, you'll get good results and still get good strength. If I could only choose one I'd stick with moderately higher reps but it's wise to do both.

Ya, Im going to stick with the "elements of both". I prefer strength to body building, nothing beats doing a higher 1rm or doing ur 1rm x 2. Its an amazing feeling. However I do want to put on size and mass, and then cut down to get more definition.

Thats one hell of a stubby arm manlet.

I was really just doing it as a comparison. Hence the "Bodybuilder" doing 200 max. etc.

Stopped reading at powerlifter can deadlift 325

Again, comparison. I was going to just leave it out, but I figured people were gna complain so i threw a random number in there.

If youd like me to revise , I can say Power lifter is benching 700 and deadlifting 1100. If that makes you happy.

[DerekEt]

I was just making an analogy above. Was trying to get a point across regarding the 315x8 to 405x8.

[Faust24]

OP Power lifting is about CNS it has very little to do with muscle size.

Way it works is
a powerlifter will recruit a higher % of muscle fibers for a lift. So lets say 90% of his muscle fibers contract.
a bodybuilder will recruit a smaller % of muscle fibers for a lift. So lets say 80% of his muscle fibers contract.

I am going to have to disagree with the above posters saying that a power lifter will be able to damage more muscle because her lifts more weight. Simply because he will damage the muscle at a faster pace, but were as the bodybuilder will have to do more reps/sets to get same damage. This does not mean the powerlifter has more potential just more efficient workout.

All the bodybuilder would have to do is add another set to damage the same amount of muscle fibers.

Also because of higher muscle recruitment, if the two are same size the bodybuilder would be able to do more reps than the power lifter with 70% 1rm. Since the power lifter would recruit more fibers and fatigue faster.

Bottom line though you can expect to gain a certain amount of muscle a year. Your going to have to eat clean, train hard, and get plenty of rest. Being able to fire more muscle fibers at one time will not change your hormonal levels allowing you to gain more muscle in a given period.

[Partyrocking]

Layne Norton's PHAT is a power/hypertrophy program. That might work for you if you don't know which one to pick.

[Blazerboy777]

I was more less just asking if anyone knew the science behind it. Not really for a workout, though I did check out the PHAT routine, and it does look rather good. Might give that a whirl. Was more or less trying to just decide to strengthen up another month or 2 and then begin hypertrophy training. Or to just begin now. I also wanted to see if anyone had decided to do it, and had gotten positive / negative results.

@ Faust, it makes sense what you are saying. I think that its also great, considering efficiency in the gym is important.

[rdferguson]

Some things from my experience:

- A higher 1RM =/= a higher 10RM/5RM/15RM/etc. Once upon a time, my 5RM squat was about 100kg. I switched over to 3x10, and had to start out at a mere 40kg, and it was hard. Once I reached 60kg I had to switch over to 3x8.
- A higher 10RM =/= a higher 1RM, other than to say that if your 10RM is 200lb and someone else's 1RM is 200lb, you're going to have a higher 1RM by default. However, a higher 10RM is more likely to add up to a higher 1RM than a 1RM will to a 10RM.
- The further along you are progression-wise, the harder it is to progress further. We all know that it's easier for a beginner to progress than someone more advanced. So why would we expect the lifter with the heavier lifts to build muscle faster than the lifter with the lighter lifts (other than for previously discussed noob gains)? If one person can squat 200lb for 3x10, and the other can squat 300lb for 3x10, the weaker one is likely to progress much faster than the stronger one, so the weaker one should be building muscle more rapidly than the stronger one.
- Bodybuilders still try to get stronger (if you could only do 3x12x100lb last week, and you can do 3x12x105lb this week, then guess what: you're stronger), although 1RM strength is seldom a top priority for them, and powerlifters still do hypertrophy training, although having pretty muscles is seldom a top priority for them. If you look at Ed Coan's classic 12 week program, it starts with 10's and 8's for the first half of the program before moving into the lower rep max strength range in the latter half; basically build the muscle then maximise its output.

[NZninja101]

In natural bodybuilding if all other variables are equal the person using more weight will have greater potential to increase their mass because they will be able to create more overload and greater muscle damage, evoking a greater growth response.

This is a common misconception. Weight is relative. A guy can bench 150 pounds for 10 and grow more than the guy doing 250 for 10.

[Blazerboy777]

.........
- The further along you are progression-wise, the harder it is to progress further. We all know that it's easier for a beginner to progress than someone more advanced. So why would we expect the lifter with the heavier lifts to build muscle faster than the lifter with the lighter lifts (other than for previously discussed noob gains)? If one person can squat 200lb for 3x10, and the other can squat 300lb for 3x10, the weaker one is likely to progress much faster than the stronger one, so the weaker one should be building muscle more rapidly than the stronger one.
.......

With the same diet and all variables being the same including genetics etc the 200x10 would progress faster as there are dimishining returns the farther you advance. But the question is:

Example:

Lifter A: 100 lb x 10 reps x 3 sets goes up to 200 x 10 reps x 3 sets. (Only trains hypertrophy)
Lifter B: 140 lb x 3-5 reps x 3 sets goes up to 290 x 3-5 reps x 3 sets. (Only trains strength)

Now: Both do hypertrophy

Lifter A: 200 x10 reps x 3 sets
Lifter B: 220 x 10 reps x 3 sets

Continuing on that path for hypertrophy, would lifter B make better gains of size or strength than lifter A? All variables being equal, including workout being the exact same.



Edit: The question may have already been answered, or at least multiple people have added their input. But if anyone else has any input. Feel free

[NZninja101]

With the same diet and all variables being the same including genetics etc the 200x10 would progress faster as there are dimishining returns the farther you advance. But the question is:

Example:

Lifter A: 100 lb x 10 reps x 3 sets goes up to 200 x 10 reps x 3 sets. (Only trains hypertrophy)
Lifter B: 140 lb x 3-5 reps x 3 sets goes up to 290 x 3-5 reps x 3 sets. (Only trains strength)

Now: Both do hypertrophy

Lifter A: 200 x10 reps x 3 sets
Lifter B: 220 x 10 reps x 3 sets

Continuing on that path for hypertrophy, would lifter B make better gains of size or strength than lifter A? All variables being equal, including workout being the exact same.



Edit: The question may have already been answered, or at least multiple people have added their input. But if anyone else has any input. Feel free

IMO


The powerlifter/Lifter B may very well gain more muscle on the bodybuilding routine than the bodybuilder. But I think it is very important for you to understand why.


When lifter B was doing his powerlifting routine, he was gaining less muscle than Lifter A, who was doing a bodybuilding routine. He still made gains but not as much. Because lifter B's muscle gains are less tapped out, he is further away from his genetic limit for musculature, due to doing a routine that is generally less efficient for size. As he is further away from his genetic muscular limit, he is capable of making faster gains. The fact that he's lifting heavier weight is irrelevant. Weight is relative.



I final point I'd like to add is that if two novices were to do the exact same routine, except that one person did 10 rep sets and the other did 3-5 rep sets, it wouldn't really make a huge difference. The problems come in when you have novices who want size doing programs like vanilla starting strength which generally fails to hit a variety of muscles altogether due to a lack of exercises rather than the low reps.

[ZoranM]

Minimal creatine intake, like 3 grams a day.

Lmfao

[rdferguson]

IMO


The powerlifter/Lifter B may very well gain more muscle on the bodybuilding routine than the bodybuilder. But I think it is very important for you to understand why.


When lifter B was doing his powerlifting routine, he was gaining less muscle than Lifter A, who was doing a bodybuilding routine. He still made gains but not as much. Because lifter B's muscle gains are less tapped out, he is further away from his genetic limit for musculature, due to doing a routine that is generally less efficient for size. As he is further away from his genetic muscular limit, he is capable of making faster gains. The fact that he's lifting heavier weight is irrelevant. Weight is relative.



I final point I'd like to add is that if two novices were to do the exact same routine, except that one person did 10 rep sets and the other did 3-5 rep sets, it wouldn't really make a huge difference. The problems come in when you have novices who want size doing programs like vanilla starting strength which generally fails to hit a variety of muscles altogether due to a lack of exercises rather than the low reps.

This.

[SexyBack1]

This is a common misconception. Weight is relative. A guy can bench 150 pounds for 10 and grow more than the guy doing 250 for 10.

I agree with you, thats why i said if all other variables are equal, by that i mean if we are talking about the same person.
Forexample if i lift 300lbx10 ill be bigger than if i lift 200lbx10. What do you think ?

[Blazerboy777]

I agree with you, thats why i said if all other variables are equal, by that i mean if we are talking about the same person.
Forexample if i lift 300lbx10 ill be bigger than if i lift 200lbx10. What do you think ?

I would expect so, and whether it be from "Noob gains", a more efficient workout, anything... I believe the verdict is that they will not get bigger... faster. Instead get bigger at a steady pace, and surpass the one of same size @ 200. Whether that be in strength / size or both.

Correct me if im wrong?

[Floider]

I don't know that I would call anyone with a 325 deadlift a powerlifter.