Alistair overeem got licensed

[LAWLER89]

This is the dumbest argument I have ever heard. You might be retarded.

Thank you for that concise, well-written, and informative counter-argument.

So Overeem pleading guilty to the charges at the hearing and then having his doctor explain exactly how he administered the illegal PED to AO is not enough evidence for you? lol.

Please post a link. I have yet to hear about him admitting to using AAS/PEDs.

[Casshern]

Lawler do you think Reem's physique is naturally attainable for pro MMA fighters?

[LAWLER89]

Lawler do you think Reem's physique is naturally attainable for pro MMA fighters?

It would certainly be no easy feat to gain 30 pounds of lean mass in five years, especially when you're doing anaerobic activity six days a week.

But when your only job is to exercise around the clock, eating an insanely strict diet and doing so under the tutelage of Europe's best trainers and nutritionists, it's not beyond the realm of reality.

And again, even if he did speed up the gain of muscle tissue with PEDs, so what? Steroids aren't throwing the punches, doing the clinch work, checking the kicks, working the submissions, or doing the conditioning for him.

[Productivity]

It would certainly be no easy feat to gain 30 pounds of lean mass in five years, especially when you're doing anaerobic activity six days a week.

But when your only job is to exercise around the clock, eating an insanely strict diet and doing so under the tutelage of Europe's best trainers and nutritionists, it's not beyond the realm of reality.

And again, even if he did speed up the gain of muscle tissue with PEDs, so what? Steroids aren't throwing the punches, doing the clinch work, checking the kicks, working the submissions, or doing the conditioning for him.

Steroids are making his punches, kicks, and everything else stronger

[RoccoTanno123]

Some of the biggest knives I've had stuck in my back were from some of the nicest people I've met....call me jaded.

Well what else can you point to where the NSAC came off as very generous and like fans for a fighter, but ended up dropping a hammer on him harder than their precedents would appear to call for (I don't think that's what happened at the suspension hearing anyway; though you do), or where it looked like they were really going on a "witch-hunt"?

I mean, they came down pretty hard on Nate Diaz, but their tone was very different and more harsh (perhaps because he challenged their authority and decision-making so much?). I'm not going to say it's impossible that's what they were doing: smiling while looking to twist the knife. But there's plenty of stuff on record with them on this stuff. It strikes me as pretty rash--unless you can establish some history of them doing this with fighters in analogous situations--to just assume that they were acting this way, here.

[RoccoTanno123]

Please post a link. I have yet to hear about him admitting to using AAS/PEDs.

He admitted to using them. He just claimed he didn't know he was using them because the doctor (who had a fairly dirty history, which OVereem said he and his team was unaware of) didn't inform him what was in the anti-inflammatory shot he gave him to help him recover from his knee injury.

[cgc]

Please post a link. I have yet to hear about him admitting to using AAS/PEDs.

Believe he admitted to it during his testimony (was on video)

Well what else can you point to where the NSAC came off as very generous and like fans for a fighter, but ended up dropping a hammer on him harder than their precedents would appear to call for (I don't think that's what happened at the suspension hearing anyway; though you do), or where it looked like they were really going on a "witch-hunt"?

I mean, they came down pretty hard on Nate Diaz, but their tone was very different and more harsh (perhaps because he challenged their authority and decision-making so much?). I'm not going to say it's impossible that's what they were doing: smiling while looking to twist the knife. But there's plenty of stuff on record with them on this stuff. It strikes me as pretty rash--unless you can establish some history of them doing this with fighters in analogous situations--to just assume that they were acting this way, here.

The whole thing is honestly odd to me and out of the norm of what we've seen with any fighter. From their "smiles" of the NSAC to the conditional license.

I've got to head out the door, but I'll try and come back tonight and expand a bit on my thinking...which I'm sure the minority will agree with me...lol. And thats fine.

[battousai216]

Steroids are making his punches, kicks, and everything else stronger

Maybe, theres a lot of debate over how much people can increase their punching power through strength training. Most people believe the impact is minimal

[Productivity]

Maybe, theres a lot of debate over how much people can increase their punching power through strength training. Most people believe the impact is minimal

a 260lb'er isnt gonna punch harder than a 205lb'er? are you sure?
(If they both already know how to punch)

[LAWLER89]

a 260lb'er isnt gonna punch harder than a 205lb'er? are you sure?
(If they both already know how to punch)

Steroids wouldn't afford him the ability to gain the weight; merely accelerate the growth of muscle tissue during his gaining period, assuming he was using AAS that was intended to stimulate muscle growth.

Same results, shorter time period.

[jamez123]

Steroids wouldn't afford him the ability to gain the weight; merely accelerate the growth of muscle tissue during his gaining period, assuming he was using AAS that was intended to stimulate muscle growth.

Same results, shorter time period.

still agree w/ you that they shouldn't be banned. But let's be real - they also enhance aggression and confidence, allow you to train more often and recover faster, and can certainly help you strike harder. They are without a doubt one of the greatest advantages someone can have.

[IAmBatman]

Even if he has/is using AAS, so what?

The whole steroids thing doesn't bother me a bit. It's no different than using supplements or weightlifting IMO. You're taking proactive steps to better yourself. Your opponent has his own choices to make in terms of tactics to employ and what to use to further his abilities. The stuff is available for anyone to use, so there's no financial, race, credence, nationality, or age precedent.

Some guys don't like to lift heavy; but you don't accuse Ben Henderson of cheating for doing so when he beats Nate's non-lifting ass, do you? Do you accuse GSP of cheating for employing gymnastics to further his dexterity, flexibility, and strength when he beats on Condit? It's just another potential tool, and it doesn't guarantee you a win, or further your skillset. If anything, increased muscle mass has hindered the 'Reem's cardio.

Thank you for that concise, well-written, and informative counter-argument.

I didn't realize I was here to teach high-school.

Steroids are illegal so no they are not actually available to everyone.

When you sign the contract to fight you agree to perform under terms conditions put forth by the UFC and the respective state commission. One of those terms is that you will not use certain substances. When you do so you violate the contract and give yourself an advantage that your opponent and employer had not agreed to.

Lifting weights is not prohibited by any governing body so everyone is well within their right to do so. Nate Diaz was aware that Henderson or any opponent may/would be doing so and that he had the opportunity to do so himself.

The idea that you would ever equate exercise to steroids is ridiculous. It is seriously the most juvenile of logic.

If steroids (A) make you perform better (P) and exercise (B) make you performer better (P)...

A leads to P & B leads to P therefore A = B.

I hope you kept a receipt because your college owes you a refund.

And I agree that steroids should be legal for use but the UFC reserves the right as a private company to restrict there use among employees.

[Productivity]

Steroids wouldn't afford him the ability to gain the weight; merely accelerate the growth of muscle tissue during his gaining period, assuming he was using AAS that was intended to stimulate muscle growth.

Same results, shorter time period.

If you think Alistair would be his size naturally with out gear and it would have just taken longer, you're so lost in the dark there is no point debating.

[battousai216]

still agree w/ you that they shouldn't be banned. But let's be real - they also enhance aggression and confidence, allow you to train more often and recover faster, and can certainly help you strike harder. They are without a doubt one of the greatest advantages someone can have.

Then why havent all the other fighters on roids had equal success?

[tudge]

Then why havent all the other fighters on roids had equal success?

Skill level.

[battousai216]

Skill level.

Exactly

[LAWLER89]

Steroids are illegal so no they are not actually available to everyone.

Don't insult me or anyone else by acting like any UFC fighter worth his salt couldn't get his hands on PEDs in a heartbeat.

When you sign the contract to fight you agree to perform under terms conditions put forth by the UFC and the respective state commission. One of those terms is that you will not use certain substances. When you do so you violate the contract and give yourself an advantage that your opponent and employer had not agreed to.

This I agree with. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. However, that's not my point.

Lifting weights is not prohibited by any governing body so everyone is well within their right to do so. Nate Diaz was aware that Henderson or any opponent may/would be doing so and that he had the opportunity to do so himself.

The idea that you would ever equate exercise to steroids is ridiculous. It is seriously the most juvenile of logic.

If steroids (A) make you perform better (P) and exercise (B) make you performer better (P)...

A leads to P & B leads to P therefore A = B.

I hope you kept a receipt because your college owes you a refund.

I never said they were equal. I said they both had the objective of bettering your performance. Please show me where I said the efficacy of standard weightlifting and gymnastics is on an even plane with AAS use.

And I agree that steroids should be legal for use but the UFC reserves the right as a private company to restrict there use among employees.

Fair enough.

In bold.

If you think Alistair would be his size naturally with out gear and it would have just taken longer, you're so lost in the dark there is no point debating.

He's not Ronnie Coleman, guy. He's ~250 pounds at 6'3". You act like he couldn't be that size without gear coming out of his eyes. Lest we forget, when he fought at 205, he still had to cut weight, so the actual weight gained is probably only 40-50 pounds in a five year span. For argument's sake, I suggested he's gained 30 lbs. of LBM in that time, with boils down to six pounds per year. If Carlos Condit suddenly blows up to 255 lean, yeah, it's safe to say he's juicing.

But Alistair's case has the shadow of doubt.

Then why havent all the other fighters on roids had equal success?

Bingo.

[RoccoTanno123]

He's not Ronnie Coleman, guy. He's ~250 pounds at 6'3". You act like he couldn't be that size without gear coming out of his eyes. Lest we forget, when he fought at 205, he still had to cut weight, so the actual weight gained is probably only 40-50 pounds in a five year span. For argument's sake, I suggested he's gained 30 lbs. of LBM in that time, with boils down to six pounds per year. If Carlos Condit suddenly blows up to 255 lean, yeah, it's safe to say he's juicing.

But Alistair's case has the shadow of doubt.

Sure. But shadow of the doubt is an extremely generous burden of proof to carry in this case. Why should it be that lax?

Besides, care to explain his T/E ratio?

[RoccoTanno123]

Then why havent all the other fighters on roids had equal success?

because they each have different skillsets and probably different training protocols. No one, in their right mind, is suggesting steroids are a cure-all where if you start juicing then you just start winning fights. You've still got to put in the work, improve your technique, and get better. Also, while I haven't seen any statistical data on this, there's a ton of anecdotal evidence that certain guys respond more to drugs than others do (granted, most of that talk surrounds hypertrophy and bodybuilding because that's the area where steroid usage is not only more common but also where it's much less taboo.)

[battousai216]

because they each have different skillsets and probably different training protocols. No one, in their right mind, is suggesting steroids are a cure-all where if you start juicing then you just start winning fights. You've still got to put in the work, improve your technique, and get better. Also, while I haven't seen any statistical data on this, there's a ton of anecdotal evidence that certain guys respond more to drugs than others do (granted, most of that talk surrounds hypertrophy and bodybuilding because that's the area where steroid usage is not only more common but also where it's much less taboo.)

I get all that, but he said its the biggest advantage someone can give themself.

[Productivity]

He's not Ronnie Coleman, guy. He's ~250 pounds at 6'3". You act like he couldn't be that size without gear coming out of his eyes. Lest we forget, when he fought at 205, he still had to cut weight, so the actual weight gained is probably only 40-50 pounds in a five year span. For argument's sake, I suggested he's gained 30 lbs. of LBM in that time, with boils down to six pounds per year. If Carlos Condit suddenly blows up to 255 lean, yeah, it's safe to say he's juicing.

But Alistair's case has the shadow of doubt.

I hope you are not serious

[jamez123]

one of the greatest advantages

I get all that, but he said its the biggest advantage someone can give themself.

reading comprehension. Work on it.

The biggest advantage to fighting, and any sport are a) genetics b) practice.

[battousai216]

reading comprehension. Work on it.

The biggest advantage to fighting, and any sport are a) genetics b) practice.

Ok priapus youre really gonna play that game? lets nit pick everything to death. Nope.

[nevergain]

Steroids wouldn't afford him the ability to gain the weight; merely accelerate the growth of muscle tissue during his gaining period, assuming he was using AAS that was intended to stimulate muscle growth.

Same results, shorter time period.

It's hard to see you post this on a bodybuilding website. If you could get there, just a little slower, why would every competing bodybuilder use gear? Why not just wait a little longer?

[jamez123]

Ok priapus youre really gonna play that game? lets nit pick everything to death. Nope.

you're the one nit picking things. I said it's a big advantage, not the biggest. Large difference. Not my fault you can't read dumb@ss

[battousai216]

you're the one nit picking things. I said it's a big advantage, not the biggest. Large difference. Not my fault you can't read dumb@ss

I don't think you know what nitpicking is.

[nevergain]

We can gather from other sports that steroids increase speed (100m), strength (bodybulding), endurance/recovery (bike racing), but somehow you don't think those three things gives the guy an advantage in the ring. Having the speed to step quicker to avoid a take down, or the strength to avoid take down or throw the other guy around a bit/take opponent down. I agree it may not help him punch much harder, but there are many other advantages it gives. remember when everybody that fought hughs would say they were surprised by his strength. Steroids will help that.

And as far as the UFC not allowing them, I could very likely be wrong but I bet it is a sanctioning issue, like judges and weight classes. It's not the UFC choice(but that is just a guess).

[chucksmanhood]

Oh its one of these threads. I find these threads extremely pathetic and boring.

[LAWLER89]

It's hard to see you post this on a bodybuilding website. If you could get there, just a little slower, why would every competing bodybuilder use gear? Why not just wait a little longer?

Because most people wouldn't want to wait for something they can have much sooner. Come on, now. Surely you've noticed the prevalence of instant gratification in modern society.

[Amoral]

Even if he has/is using AAS, so what?

The whole steroids thing doesn't bother me a bit. It's no different than using supplements or weightlifting IMO. You're taking proactive steps to better yourself. Your opponent has his own choices to make in terms of tactics to employ and what to use to further his abilities. The stuff is available for anyone to use, so there's no financial, race, credence, nationality, or age precedent.

Some guys don't like to lift heavy; but you don't accuse Ben Henderson of cheating for doing so when he beats Nate's non-lifting ass, do you? Do you accuse GSP of cheating for employing gymnastics to further his dexterity, flexibility, and strength when he beats on Condit? It's just another potential tool, and it doesn't guarantee you a win, or further your skillset. If anything, increased muscle mass has hindered the 'Reem's cardio.

Except its illegal and all the other things you mentioned are not...steroids are the tip of the iceberg

Steroids wouldn't afford him the ability to gain the weight; merely accelerate the growth of muscle tissue during his gaining period, assuming he was using AAS that was intended to stimulate muscle growth.

Same results, shorter time period.

Hes carrying a larger amount of lean tissue than anyone on the planet could carry at his ht wt steroids gh slin epo all gave him that ability. You sound like someone who is starting to come to terms with adulthood kid but ill tell ya santa claus aint real and batman is just a comic strip series.