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Thread: Ketosis

  1. #61
    CARLMAN ntrllftr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by wrhalljr View Post
    Well I just read everything from the other thread so I guess I didn't know what I was getting in the middle of..lol...just so you know though what happened to you is in no way "proof". No more than my transformation, although even documented in over 40 transformations of the week, is not in any way proof of anything...I know what worked for me and what works for the clients I train but again not anywhere near "proof"!
    Don't sell yourself short. If you did something and it was a change... that is proof!
    I did the weight loss with very low carbs and my measurements went down considerably. When i did it with carb loading I held onto some more size.
    To me... that is proof.

    Edit... There are many ways to skin a cat. there is no right or wrong. What you feel is best for "you" is best. I don't in no whey say my whey is the only whey. Just how I feel that it's best for me.
    Last edited by ntrllftr; 01-28-2013 at 08:27 PM.
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  2. #62
    SNBF/IFPA PRO wrhalljr's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Don't sell yourself short. If you did something and it was a change... that is proof!
    I did the weight loss with very low carbs and my measurements went down considerably. When i did it with carb loading I held onto some more size.
    To me... that is proof.
    I never sell myself short I promise you that and it may be proof to me in my mind and the way I train others as well as yours may be proof to you in your mind, however when you said proof I just assumed you meant real proof as in double blind placebo, controlled, peer reviewed, scientific, documented, published "proof"...
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  3. #63
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Why don't you be useful for once and answer wrhalljr's question intead of attacking me.
    That's funny, you're the one obsessed with getting in jabs. You seem to wait till I've posted a few times then get in a jab at me
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  4. #64
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    Originally Posted by wrhalljr View Post
    I never sell myself short I promise you that and it may be proof to me in my mind and the way I train others as well as yours may be proof to you in your mind, however when you said proof I just assumed you meant real proof as in double blind placebo, controlled, peer reviewed, scientific, documented, published "proof"...
    Just read my sig... I'm just a simple man. I'm not into all that scientific stuff.
    Wish you well with good clients and great placings in upcoming shows!
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  5. #65
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    Smile

    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Just read my sig... I'm just a simple man. I'm not into all that scientific stuff.
    Wish you well with good clients and great placings in upcoming shows!
    Thank you and I'll let you two proceed!!
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  6. #66
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    Originally Posted by desoto View Post
    I would like to know what what happens when your callories get higher than maintenence on the KETO diet, can you put fat on?
    Oh yeah, definitely.
    330->210. Drop me a PM if you're just getting started and want some advice.
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  7. #67
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    Yea, it's harder to do on a keto diet but yes
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  8. #68
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Exactly why I said carb cycling is better than straight low carb for gaining muscle. I have actual proof. Rather than your " studies ". That are not controlled.
    Carb cycling is excellent for bulking. It prevents chronic overcompensation of glycogen, thereby preventing lipogenic readaptation....Another concept is Berardi's "The Science of Nutrient Timing" found in the archives..
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  9. #69
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    Jedwab,

    What macros were you following before you went VLCD? What was your fat macro number during your VLCD? Just curious, as your current carb intake level has no doubt eliminated any lipogenic adaptation..
    Last edited by KLMARB; 01-29-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Don't sell yourself short. If you did something and it was a change... that is proof!
    I did the weight loss with very low carbs and my measurements went down considerably. When i did it with carb loading I held onto some more size.
    To me... that is proof.


    Edit... There are many ways to skin a cat. there is no right or wrong. What you feel is best for "you" is best. I don't in no whey say my whey is the only whey. Just how I feel that it's best for me.
    What macros were you following when you went low-carb? There are four energy pathways during a cut, and catabolism can certainly be a result....
    I'll take arrogance and the inevitable hubris over self-doubt and lack of confidence, anyday.......
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  11. #71
    ╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮ acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KLMARB View Post
    What macros were you following when you went low-carb? There are four energy pathways during a cut, and catabolism can certainly be a result....
    As long as you have enough protein in your diet, you are not going to catabolize muscle.
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    That's correct protien synthesis and nitrogen retention can occur even on a very low calorie diet.
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  13. #73
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    That's correct protien synthesis and nitrogen retention can occur even on a very low calorie diet.
    Than KLMarbs claim to catabolism is over stated (as nearly every dieting protocol recommends a hefty protein intake).
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Than KLMarbs claim to catabolism is over stated (as nearly every dieting protocol recommends a hefty protein intake).
    I'm not really sure what he's claiming.
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    That's correct protien synthesis and nitrogen retention can occur even on a very low calorie diet.
    Does that mean you have more of a chance of putting on some muscle with the Keto cutting diet than just restricting callories ?
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    Originally Posted by desoto View Post
    Does that mean you have more of a chance of putting on some muscle with the Keto cutting diet than just restricting callories ?
    Possible with enough calories (meh), but unlikely.
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    As long as you have enough protein in your diet, you are not going to catabolize muscle.
    Exactly. The reason I asked the question was to be able to explain the biochemistry of hepatic gluconeogenesis, using stored protein (muscle) as the substrate. I was trying to avoid a simplistic answer that didn't explain the science. (like yours. Not a bust on you, I like to have people understand "why" I say the things I do)

    I don't recall anything I've said before now to be directly related to protein consumption. I think everyone knows that low protein is potentially catabolic. Since it's been brought up, I generally advocate moderate protein, around one-third of daily calories, or, one gram per lb. of LBM.
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  18. #78
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    Don't beat me up too bad...

    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Than KLMarbs claim to catabolism is over stated (as nearly every dieting protocol recommends a hefty protein intake).
    Originally Posted by KLMARB View Post
    Exactly. The reason I asked the question was to be able to explain the biochemistry of hepatic gluconeogenesis, using stored protein (muscle) as the substrate. I was trying to avoid a simplistic answer that didn't explain the science. (like yours. Not a bust on you, I like to have people understand "why" I say the things I do)

    I don't recall anything I've said before now to be directly related to protein consumption. I think everyone knows that low protein is potentially catabolic. Since it's been brought up, I generally advocate moderate protein, around one-third of daily calories, or, one gram per lb. of LBM.
    As I agree with you two for the most part...

    Let's say that person is doing two sessions of cardio a day along with the training. HIIT or LISS whatever doesn't matter.
    Does your view still remain the same?
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    All this arguing about "my diet is better than your diet" is nonsense.

    Skinny guys trying to get big or who have actually gotten big are typically going to do well on lower fat high carb, because they will likely have good insulin sensitivity.

    Fat guys trying to get lean are going to do better on a low carb or keto diet, because they likely have poor insulin sensitivity... not one approach is going to fit all.. the dieter should determine the diet... as long as it has enough protein, and you can stick to it... it will work.
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Don't beat me up too bad...





    As I agree with you two for the most part...

    Let's say that person is doing two sessions of cardio a day along with the training. HIIT or LISS whatever doesn't matter.
    Does your view still remain the same?
    For the most part, yes. I've experienced some pretty nasty effects when I've let my protein percentage get too high. I'm cutting now, so I'm doing double cardio on most days, along with my three day split. I am eating only once per day (after my second cardio workout) but taking a fiber supplement after my morning training. My protein is probably higher, but still well less than 50% of total calories. This helps me when eating only once per day. I also eat considerably more carbs than would normally be considered lipolytic (ketogenic), but since I'm not lipogenically adapted, I slip back and forth between sucrosis and lipolysis daily. I always test positive for lipolysis in the afternoons. Since I only have to deal with hunger beginning in the late afternoons and supressed during my second workout, its a comfortable pattern for me. I also usually supercompensate one day of each weekend.
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    Originally Posted by KLMARB View Post
    For the most part, yes. I've experienced some pretty nasty effects when I've let my protein percentage get too high. I'm cutting now, so I'm doing double cardio on most days, along with my three day split. I am eating only once per day (after my second cardio workout) but taking a fiber supplement after my morning training. My protein is probably higher, but still well less than 50% of total calories. This helps me when eating only once per day. I also eat considerably more carbs than would normally be considered lipolytic (ketogenic), but since I'm not lipogenically adapted, I slip back and forth between sucrosis and lipolysis daily. I always test positive for lipolysis in the afternoons. Since I only have to deal with hunger beginning in the late afternoons and supressed during my second workout, its a comfortable pattern for me. I also usually supercompensate one day of each weekend.
    Am I reading it right... You are eating just once a day or one meal with carbs a day?
    Before I reply. Have you ever in the past been in single bodyfat percentage and take measurements?
    I'm wondering how you are going to gage progress (muscle mass wise) if you haven't in the past.
    That is what I did trying different stratagies. Kept taking measurements at certain body weights.
    I'm curious with what you are doing here also.. Aren't you more into powerlifting rather than bodybuilding. If so, is this some sort of experiment?
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Possible with enough calories (meh), but unlikely.
    It's possible it's just harder. There is a difference between nitrogen retention and protien synthesis. Nitrogen retention is a simple matter of enoug. Protien, muscle synthesis is more complex it involves hormones like GH testosterone, insulin levels, ghrelin levels etc. you can have a positive nitrogen retention and not have protien synthesis, and you can have protien synthesis without eating. For example when people fast for 18 hours aka "lean gains" they actually have protien synthesis going on as a result of catecholamines being released. Like others have stated which diet you should do depends on whether your body is more primed to use fat as a fuel source (lipolytic) or burn carbs and store fat (lipogenic) this is why calories isn't all that matters. If you're mostly a carb burner a low calorie high carb won't burn much fat instead metabolism will slow down and you'll still gain fat. We know this from looking at animals that hibernate and store fat during the winter. Even if we starve them they will still gain fat at the expense of lean tissue. Yes this is an extreme example but the point is hormones trumps calories. The key is to reduce calories on the diet that's right for your metabolic profile
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    It's possible it's just harder. There is a difference between nitrogen retention and protien synthesis. Nitrogen retention is a simple matter of enoug. Protien, muscle synthesis is more complex it involves hormones like GH testosterone, insulin levels, ghrelin levels etc. you can have a positive nitrogen retention and not have protien synthesis, and you can have protien synthesis without eating. For example when people fast for 18 hours aka "lean gains" they actually have protien synthesis going on as a result of catecholamines being released. Like others have stated which diet you should do depends on whether your body is more primed to use fat as a fuel source (lipolytic) or burn carbs and store fat (lipogenic) this is why calories isn't all that matters. If you're mostly a carb burner a low calorie high carb won't burn much fat instead metabolism will slow down and you'll still gain fat. We know this from looking at animals that hibernate and store fat during the winter. Even if we starve them they will still gain fat at the expense of lean tissue. Yes this is an extreme example but the point is hormones trumps calories. The key is to reduce calories on the diet that's right for your metabolic profile
    Ok being serious here. When I said the same thing about the body storing fat instead of burning when a person gets to a certain point you told me that I was an idiot? Now you are saying the same thing. I am confused.
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Ok being serious here. When I said the same thing about the body storing fat instead of burning when a person gets to a certain point you told me that I was an idiot? Now you are saying the same thing. I am confused.
    I didn't remember saying that can you share the post again?
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    I didn't remember saying that can you share the post again?
    Yer not worth my time to go looking for it. Mainly because I truthfully don't care about your response since you are a liar and a fake!
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Yer not worth my time to go looking for it. Mainly because I truthfully don't care about your response since you are a liar and a fake!
    Ok princess, go stomp in your corner. Sorry i dont feel a need to post my diploma online just to verify to you i am who i say i am
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    It's possible it's just harder. There is a difference between nitrogen retention and protien synthesis. Nitrogen retention is a simple matter of enoug. Protien, muscle synthesis is more complex it involves hormones like GH testosterone, insulin levels, ghrelin levels etc. you can have a positive nitrogen retention and not have protien synthesis, and you can have protien synthesis without eating. For example when people fast for 18 hours aka "lean gains" they actually have protien synthesis going on as a result of catecholamines being released. Like others have stated which diet you should do depends on whether your body is more primed to use fat as a fuel source (lipolytic) or burn carbs and store fat (lipogenic) this is why calories isn't all that matters. If you're mostly a carb burner a low calorie high carb won't burn much fat instead metabolism will slow down and you'll still gain fat. We know this from looking at animals that hibernate and store fat during the winter. Even if we starve them they will still gain fat at the expense of lean tissue. Yes this is an extreme example but the point is hormones trumps calories. The key is to reduce calories on the diet that's right for your metabolic profile
    Thanks azstrengthcoach, I don't expect any muscle gains while I am trying to cut on Keto but after easter I will begin a Keto bulking phase ,just to see what happens. I hope after the Keto reduced calorie diet my body is primed for the Keto way of life so the transition to a more bulking keto diet should be smoother.
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    Originally Posted by desoto View Post
    Thanks azstrengthcoach, I don't expect any muscle gains while I am trying to cut on Keto but after easter I will begin a Keto bulking phase ,just to see what happens. I hope after the Keto reduced calorie diet my body is primed for the Keto way of life so the transition to a more bulking keto diet should be smoother.
    Once you become very insulin sensitive its a lot easier to introduce carbs back into your diet and get a proper anabolic effect, hence the CKD system
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Am I reading it right... You are eating just once a day or one meal with carbs a day?
    Before I reply. Have you ever in the past been in single bodyfat percentage and take measurements?
    I'm wondering how you are going to gage progress (muscle mass wise) if you haven't in the past.
    That is what I did trying different stratagies. Kept taking measurements at certain body weights.
    I'm curious with what you are doing here also.. Aren't you more into powerlifting rather than bodybuilding. If so, is this some sort of experiment?
    Thanks.
    One meal per day, with carbs. Unless you count my fiber supplement post workout as a meal. I haven't been in single digits (or very near) for over 25 years, during college, when I'd do my unadapted, (lipogenic semi-starvation) carb-based cut, and the last time being as a result of Ranger school (class 6-86). Sure, I track measurements, I've had a consistent (measured over years) muscle gain as well as fat loss. I'm still about 30lbs. away for sub-15%, I'll probably hit that by this Summer. I'll stabilize there for six months or so, then make a decision about competing. For me, since I'm balanced as far a anorexigenic/orexigenic hormones, it is a straight matter of thermodynamics (calories in/out). Many would look at me as overweight, which I am as far as bodybuilding standards, but I look at myself as 85% of the way to achieving my fat loss goals...It's merely a matter of self-discipline and time..
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    Originally Posted by desoto View Post
    Thanks azstrengthcoach, I don't expect any muscle gains while I am trying to cut on Keto but after easter I will begin a Keto bulking phase ,just to see what happens. I hope after the Keto reduced calorie diet my body is primed for the Keto way of life so the transition to a more bulking keto diet should be smoother.
    The issue is not to stay "keto" while bulking, but to follow a nutritional pattern that prevents lipogenic readaptation, or fat gain along with the muscle. Since sustained, adapted lipolysis (keto) has normalized your hormones (including insulin sensitivity) you'll be able to eat more carbs, which is optimal for muscle recruitment. A few concepts were discussed earlier in the thread, (post #68) check'em out...
    Last edited by KLMARB; 01-31-2013 at 02:38 PM.
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