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Thread: Ketosis

  1. #31
    Registered User acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KLMARB View Post
    .....
    I know there are two schools of thought on Keto, and personally think they are unnecessarily restrictive.

    I would be interested in seeing studies / literature that supports the efficacy of keto over a more moderate approach. While I understand that it isn't simple in / simple out, no one can works outside the laws of thermodynamics and will lose weight in a deficit.
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  2. #32
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    Also, from what I understand of leptin and ghelin resistance, this is caused in the same way insulin resistance is "chronic overexposure). Simply being in a negative energy state and exercising will reduce hormonal resistance over time. Severe restriction is not needed.
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  3. #33
    "Full House" KLMARB's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Also, from what I understand of leptin and ghelin resistance, this is caused in the same way insulin resistance is "chronic overexposure). Simply being in a negative energy state and exercising will reduce hormonal resistance over time. Severe restriction is not needed.
    Sure, but its a question of efficiency. Carb-based cuts will eventually reduce resistance states, due to thermodynamics. Myself, I used the typical bodybuilding diet some 20 years ago and was successful. You know, very low fat, skinless chicken breasts, water pack tuna, sweet potatoes, brown rice, etc. I remember those cuts very vividly, as they were very difficult due to the effects of both anorexigenic hormonal withdrawal and orexigenic hormone secretion occurring at the same time. Then, since my resistance states were never completely normalized, (due to my genetic trait of quickly rising leptin resistance when following a carb-based nutritional pattern) I'd start adding fat back within a few weeks of ending my cut. Pretty frustrating, but I did this for several decades. Now you understand that advocating a low-fat, carb-based diet for the overweight/obese (people adapted into chronic lipogenesis) is actually contributing to the obesity epidemic in western society. The average person cannot withstand the one-two punch of both the anorexigenic resistance withdrawal reactions as well as the true orexigenic hormonal secretions. That's the real problem of oversimplified thermodynamics, rather than the wider understanding of lipogenesis, lipolysis, and lipostasis.

    You're also falling into the oversimplification "trap" of referring to sustained lipolytic nutritional plans as "keto". ALL patterns resulting in lipolysis/fat loss WILL induce ketosis. Even carb-based ones. It's merely one of four major energy pathways present during lipolysis. The misnomer "keto" really means sustained, adapted lipolysis, rather than the intermittent, non-adaptive pattern present during a carb-based cut.
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  4. #34
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    Bumped for reference purposes..
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  5. #35
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    KLMARB, you rock. I really like the way you explain stuff. Repping if I can figure out how to. hehehehhe

    I've tried doing High Fat and High Carb diets. I'm a "Hight Fat" kind of person myself. I always had problems being tired at the gym way to quickly. After finding Keto my workouts got better with no loss of energy. In fact I became stronger. My ability to work through a few extra reps and the amount of weight I could lift increased.

    Some say BS but for me it is true. If I eat carbs I get bloated and weak. If I reduce carbs to as close to nada as I can I feel great. There is also a brain change. I became a clearer in thinking and calmer in emotions.

    I don't find I'm restricted by the diet at all. I find it easier to stick with than a carb based diet. It takes less than 10 minutes to make a Keto meal. It takes at least 20min for rice, for example.

    OP..... Keto has been one of the best things I have ever done for my body. I highly suggest a try. It's hard only for about 2 or 3 weeks and really I think that is just getting used to what you can and can't eat. After that it's a breeze. As for any change like this, prepare food ahead of time so you don't get trapped being hungry and having the vending machine call you... eat me... eat mee.... snickers is satisfyiiiinnnnnggggggg.....
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  6. #36
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    Originally Posted by DRBrnx78 View Post
    I'm thinking of starting a ketosis diet and was wondering if anyone knew what would be a safe time frame for females?
    A cyclic ketogenic diet works better than a straight ketogenic diet. There aren't dangerous or unhealthy despite what some on here say
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  7. #37
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Also, from what I understand of leptin and ghelin resistance, this is caused in the same way insulin resistance is "chronic overexposure). Simply being in a negative energy state and exercising will reduce hormonal resistance over time. Severe restriction is not needed.
    This is why a CKD diet works so well
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    I know there are two schools of thought on Keto, and personally think they are unnecessarily restrictive.

    I would be interested in seeing studies / literature that supports the efficacy of keto over a more moderate approach. While I understand that it isn't simple in / simple out, no one can works outside the laws of thermodynamics and will lose weight in a deficit.
    What if I show you a study where people lost less weight on a lower calorie high carb or starvation diet? Would you admit it's not just calories in vs calories out?
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  9. #39
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    This is why a CKD diet works so well
    Yeah, it is why IF works well too I reckon.

    Keep the body guessing and it won't adapt into hormonal states that are undesirable for your goals.
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  10. #40
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    Originally Posted by evo3129 View Post
    Yeah, it is why IF works well too I reckon.

    Keep the body guessing and it won't adapt into hormonal states that are undesirable for your goals.
    Short term restriction increases metabolism, long term slows it down
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    What if I show you a study where people lost less weight on a lower calorie high carb or starvation diet? Would you admit it's not just calories in vs calories out?
    I think you clearly have on the other thread about calories in vs calories out, as I have on other threads, and it doesn't seem to really matter to most on here! They are going to believe what they want to believe and what is "easy" for them...just like oldsuperman said earlier he has done it very successfully as well as his clients as have I and mine...I personally do a CKD but I have done keto successfully as many that I train, and there is a CLEAR difference in weight loss, fat loss, and lean body composition over just a simple calorie in vs calorie out diet! And those who say one can't perform on it or their strength and/or endurance are not there are just wrong! I could and have given example after example and study after study that show very high performance levels (Djokovic - #1 world, Ferry - Olympic Gold, and many others)...It boggles my mind that such a large segment on here and in the industry would continue to defend high carbohydrate diets with such tenacity. It should all be very obvious by now. The studies keep piling up indicating that carbohydrate intake is the major variable in determining body composition and that excess glucose from carbohydrate intake is the primary culprit in obesity and in many disease processes. It follows logically that if you can limit carb intake to a very low range and make the difference up with fats and protein, you can literally reprogram your genes back to the evolutionary-based factory setting you had at birth – the setting that offered you the opportunity to start life as a truly efficient fat-burning organism and to continue to do so for the rest of your life!!
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by wrhalljr View Post
    I think you clearly have on the other thread about calories in vs calories out, as I have on other threads, and it doesn't seem to really matter to most on here! They are going to believe what they want to believe and what is "easy" for them...just like oldsuperman said earlier he has done it very successfully as well as his clients as have I and mine...I personally do a CKD but I have done keto successfully as many that I train, and there is a CLEAR difference in weight loss, fat loss, and lean body composition over just a simple calorie in vs calorie out diet! And those who say one can't perform on it or their strength and/or endurance are not there are just wrong! I could and have given example after example and study after study that show very high performance levels (Djokovic - #1 world, Ferry - Olympic Gold, and many others)...It boggles my mind that such a large segment on here and in the industry would continue to defend high carbohydrate diets with such tenacity. It should all be very obvious by now. The studies keep piling up indicating that carbohydrate intake is the major variable in determining body composition and that excess glucose from carbohydrate intake is the primary culprit in obesity and in many disease processes. It follows logically that if you can limit carb intake to a very low range and make the difference up with fats and protein, you can literally reprogram your genes back to the evolutionary-based factory setting you had at birth – the setting that offered you the opportunity to start life as a truly efficient fat-burning organism and to continue to do so for the rest of your life!!
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  13. #43
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    While were on the subject, I am on a keto diet right now and am doing well. I have tried the low callorie diet before and found it too easy to increase the carbs without knowing. I would like to know what what happens when your callories get higher than maintenence on the KETO diet, can you put fat on?
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    Not All Carbs are Alike!

    A lot of great info/debate here!

    I will add that I have eaten Paleo since April 2012, and it has made a Huge difference to my weight and overall health, after 20+ years of weight struggles, dispite a high level of activity! Lost 60-70 pounds of fat/added 10-20 of muscle in 9 months without ever counting calories/portions once!

    I work out 5-6 days/week and have plenty of energy and have gotten bigger muscles, for sure.

    I keep seeing "carb" without any distinction of what kind. Not all carbs are the same! COMPLEX carbs are OK (just don't go crazy with sugary/sweet fruit/juices). It's processed/simple carbs/sugars in flours. That are the carb enemy (and even some of those at targeted times are OK/desirable (ie some fast-digesting sucrose can make for some good insulin response to help promote lean tissue growth)… or at least as I understand it…
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  15. #45
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    Short term restriction increases metabolism, long term slows it down
    Exactly why I said carb cycling is better than straight low carb for gaining muscle. I have actual proof. Rather than your " studies ". That are not controlled.
    Every day counts.

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    More from a female perspective...

    I did this once http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet...ic-diet-guide/ , and the first 12 days were hard - bad breath, BO (rather un lady like), headaches. Once was done with that it became easier but I have to say that stuffing your face at weekends with carbs didn't agree with me, i just felt ill. Ended up adapting this to what suits me, and now simply stick to 50-100g carbs a day ( even if i occasionally have a fail day) and what works for me and my lifestyle. I wouldn't want to go no carb again, made me a grumpy cow....( or that could just be hormones).
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    More from a female perspective...

    I did this once http://stronglifts.com/anabolic-diet...ic-diet-guide/ , and the first 12 days were hard - bad breath, BO (rather un lady like), headaches. Once was done with that it became easier but I have to say that stuffing your face at weekends with carbs didn't agree with me, i just felt ill. Ended up adapting this to what suits me, and now simply stick to 50-100g carbs a day ( even if i occasionally have a fail day) and what works for me and my lifestyle. I wouldn't want to go no carb again, made me a grumpy cow....( or that could just be hormones).
    You don't need to go No carb to be keto or get most of the benefits of keto. Just go low enough that you deplete glycogen stores and dip into fat stores
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    Just go low enough
    how low is that? I reckon i can stay under 75g but 50g is a struggle.
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    Originally Posted by Jedwab View Post
    how low is that? I reckon i can stay under 75g but 50g is a struggle.
    Good question! Yeah az how do you know exactly when low enough is. Does your belly button pop out or something?
    Please do tell, especially without knowing how much cardio is done and other activity.
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Exactly why I said carb cycling is better than straight low carb for gaining muscle. I have actual proof. Rather than your " studies ". That are not controlled.
    The studies are actually controlled. But what's your "proof"?
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    The studies are actually controlled. But what's your "proof"?
    The proof was actual results that I provided to you in another thread. If you are a college graduate how is this hard to understand?
    I provided real photos and video of a guy 6" shorter than you and 60lbs less than you that is stronger and bigger than you. That is the proof.
    All you did was say he was short and it's easier for short people to lift. You had zero real results that proved any of your nonsense.
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Exactly why I said carb cycling is better than straight low carb for gaining muscle. I have actual proof. Rather than your " studies ". That are not controlled.
    While I agree with you on carb cycling I only believe it is best once you get to a sub 10-12% bf...I still know by my own drop from the 20+% bf range and others that I train that straight keto is the best way to achieve that initial fat loss goal...I would like to know what actual proof that was controlled with a link?? I have many on straight keto and always looking for more info...
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    The proof was actual results that I provided to you in another thread. If you are a college graduate how is this hard to understand?
    I provided real photos and video of a guy 6" shorter than you and 60lbs less than you that is stronger and bigger than you. That is the proof.
    All you did was say he was short and it's easier for short people to lift. You had zero real results that proved any of your nonsense.
    Again in your pics I see a short fat guy. You really don't get the term evidence. We have no way of knowing what you ate and your macronutrient breakdown. Sigh, you're not bigger than me you're a short fat guy. You're 150lbs at 15-16% which means at the same body fat as me you're maybe 135lbs or less. I provided real studies that how that low carb diets burn more fat than other diets. There's also the fact I'm considerably leaner with more muscle mass than you. I step on stage around 185 at 5% body fat you're maybe 125 I'm guessing. If you were 5'6" 150lbs on stage I might be impressed. You do realize being 5'6" 150lbs is the equivalent of being 6' 170lbs? Go back to your bridge little troll, let the grown ups actually talk about real stuff
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    Originally Posted by wrhalljr View Post
    While I agree with you on carb cycling I only believe it is best once you get to a sub 10-12% bf...I still know by my own drop from the 20+% bf range and others that I train that straight keto is the best way to achieve that initial fat loss goal...I would like to know what actual proof that was controlled with a link?? I have many on straight keto and always looking for more info...
    Agreed for people 15% and higher a true keto works great.
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    Originally Posted by wrhalljr View Post
    While I agree with you on carb cycling I only believe it is best once you get to a sub 10-12% bf...I still know by my own drop from the 20+% bf range and others that I train that straight keto is the best way to achieve that initial fat loss goal...I would like to know what actual proof that was controlled with a link?? I have many on straight keto and always looking for more info...

    For initial fat loss yes it is optimal to be in keto to lose. Although, I am a believer that you lose much muscle while doing that as well. So refeeding or cycling helps maintain more muscle IMO. It will take longer to get to the end result but I believe more muscle will be saved and is worth the extra time.

    As for the proof and control you'll have to ask the other poster. Trying to get real results from him is hard though.
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    Wink

    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post

    As for the proof and control you'll have to ask the other poster. Trying to get real results from him is hard though.
    That's funny which one of us has a pic with 6 pack abs?
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    That's funny which one of us has a pic with 6 pack abs?
    Mine....









    Any more questions?!
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    Mine....









    Any more questions?!
    How much you weigh there?
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    Originally Posted by ntrllftr View Post
    For initial fat loss yes it is optimal to be in keto to lose. Although, I am a believer that you lose much muscle while doing that as well. So refeeding or cycling helps maintain more muscle IMO. It will take longer to get to the end result but I believe more muscle will be saved and is worth the extra time.

    As for the proof and control you'll have to ask the other poster. Trying to get real results from him is hard though.
    Well I just read everything from the other thread so I guess I didn't know what I was getting in the middle of..lol...just so you know though what happened to you is in no way "proof". No more than my transformation, although even documented in over 40 transformations of the week, is not in any way proof of anything...I know what worked for me and what works for the clients I train but again not anywhere near "proof"!
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    Originally Posted by azstrengthcoach View Post
    How much you weigh there?
    Why don't you be useful for once and answer wrhalljr's question intead of attacking me.
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