Tibia Dorsi machines

[Jetigen]

I know your reply is from a different thread. Thought it's more appropriate to start a specific thread for tibia dorsi machines.

I have enjoyed using the tibia piece at a gym I use sometimes. Doesn't seem like it gets much use there. This is just a subjective observation, but I feel that my ankles seem to be stronger, as used to get turned somewhat easy when stepping on things, which does not happen as much. Took a bit of getting used to finding the right height for me to use.

Here is a quote and video from StackTV:

"The lower phase of the Squat and Leg Press also require dorsiflexion flexibility. And if you have ankle and foot dorsiflexion inflexibility, your running and lifting technique can be affected, which can lead to plantar fascitis, a swelling of the thick tissue on your foot."



http://www.stack.com/2010/02/01/impr...n-flexibility/

[Jetigen]

Update: After reading Joe Weider's Ultimate Bodybuilding book about Tibialis Raises, I realized that this muscle group (tibialis anterior) can and must be trained just as heavy as other calf muscles (gastrocnemius, soleus). It's sort of like triceps/biceps relationship. You must train both to achieve balanced development. I ended up adding 14" to each plate horn which is just 3" long by design on this model. Now each horn can take ten 25pounds plates or 250 pounds, making it 500 pounds total. Pictures attached.

From the book:

If you haven't been working your tibialis anterior muscles directly, you will find that they become pumped up and reach muscular failure after only a few reps. But with time you can treat them like any other muscle group.

I did a review of my Hammer Strength tibia dorsi machine and its modification a while back. Here is the link:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=139722483





-

Here is a video of the same machine in use:

[Jetigen]

I use standard plates for my dumbbell work, though not for barbell work. I'm also thinking that if I get a tibia dorsi machine, getting standard size weight horns will allow me to stack more weight on it easily, since you're kind of limited to 10-lb plates and below, and 10-lb standard plates are nice and thin. It seems like it would work better. I might even need to buy more standard plates.

Maluket, from my experience, 10 lbs plates just don't cut it when using tibia dorsi machines. One should really consider 25 lbs plates as the main plates for tibia dorsi raises, and 10 lbs and 5 lbs ones as incrementals.

[Jetigen]

I just took a quick look around, and it seems like they're all Olympic these days, so that's probably what will happen in practice. So much for my standard plate theory. I remember seeing one on Craigslist once that wasn't, but I wasn't going to pay $300 for a used tibia dorsi machine.

You can custom fabricate your tibia machine. Rick from EdgeFitness might even take up on the task. And the design of the machine can be simpler, something like this Gymleco tibia:

[Maluket]

Thanks for this thread. I really want to take care of this, and sooner rather than later. I'm not particularly educated on the subject, but I've always felt like this is one area of my body where I'm seriously missing an exercise, like doing tricep work but never any bicep work. I don't run, but still, balanced development and all that.

I've fiddled with dumbbells between my feet. I've held a 45 pound plate on my toes while sitting on my steps. I've hooked my toes through a handle on the low pully on the tower attached to my rack. None of those options have made me happy. They all worked to some extent, but they were all awkward enough that I just don't do them. I want a dedicated piece of equipment so that I can do this right and regularly.

So to get a hopefully-fair point of comparison, how much weight do you use on a seated calf raise in comparison to on your Hammer Strength tibia dorsi? Also, it doesn't look like there's enough room for both feet on that unit due to the pad, as the one in the video has a longer pad. So are you doing one foot at a time or both?

I have some 25 pound standard plates. I don't have or really want 25 pound olympic plates. I have a ton of olympic 45s and 10s, then a few 5s and 2.5s for incremental. 25s would just be in the way. Not that the 25 pound standard plates aren't, but the standard plates are also thinner, so it'd be a slightly more compact unit if it used them.

If I get a separate tibia dorsi machine, I figured it might be safe to go cheap, and there's this one at $190 delivered:

http://www.amazon.com/Tibia-Dorsi-Ca...dp/B001TOP056/

It looks like there's plenty of space to do your weight horn modification when required, and that it'll do both legs at once.

I'm also looking at the Sorinex, which people seem to love for both calf raise and tibia dorsi:

http://store.sorinex.com/Seated-Calf...ine-p/ct-1.htm



It's harder to see if that could have the weight horns modified, though. Also, space is a bit at a premium, and the way they've set it up makes it extra wide. Having a separate unit could be better in that regard.

As far as custom manufacture, I love the custom equipment I got from Strength Inc., so would likely propose anything custom to him first:

http://www.strengthequipment.net/

And I've definitely considered having him build me something as part of a more substantial order so that the shipping would pretty much already be included. I'm already designing a custom incline/decline pec fly rear delt, and I'm fiddling with some leg press sketches. Mine died on me, though I'm pretty sure it's just a linear bearing and it could in theory be fixed, but I'm pretty "meh" about my leg press anyway. Fixing vs. replacing is more a money thing than anything else, since I'd rather have something different (like the Avenger, but I don't have the budget or space for that). And I hate my seated calf raise, so getting custom combo unit is a possibility.

The Gymleco looks nice, and I suppose a weight horn sticking straight out like that is an option IF it's attached to a seat (like on an integrated calf/tib machine) so that it doesn't want to fall over. Or I suppose I could stick some legs out in front to keep it from tipping. The strength curve seems like it would be too heavy at the bottom compared to the top, but maybe not too bad.

To throw out more options for others happening upon this thread, there's also one from New York Barbells, but I won't get that one because I've not been happy with their equipment.

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/7700.html



And there's one from ProFitness, but it seems overpriced to me:

http://www.pro-fitness.com/tibia_dor...on_machine.htm


Looks like I could also build a "DARD" as a budget option. It at least looks better than trying to hold a dumbbell between my toes.

http://www.todayfitness.net/budgetbo...hinblaster.htm



What else have people found?

[Jetigen]

Thanks for this thread. I really want to take care of this, and sooner rather than later. I'm not particularly educated on the subject, but I've always felt like this is one area of my body where I'm seriously missing an exercise, like doing tricep work but never any bicep work. I don't run, but still, balanced development and all that.

You nailed it as far as the bicep/tricep comparison goes. It surprises me how dorsi flexion overlooked. To me it’s as important as forearm training.

So to get a hopefully-fair point of comparison, how much weight do you use on a seated calf raise in comparison to on your Hammer Strength tibia dorsi? Also, it doesn't look like there's enough room for both feet on that unit due to the pad, as the one in the video has a longer pad. So are you doing one foot at a time or both?

Right now I am doing 120 lbs on my HS machine. That’s four 25 lbs and two 10 lbs plates. I do 3 supersets of standing calf, seated calf and tibia dorsi raises at the end of my leg training day.

My machine is an older version. The padding on it is heavy duty . Most of the time I do both feet simultaneously. It’s pretty comfortable but might depend on one’s feet size. I’ve been thinking about converting my machine into unilateral unit.

Another thing I noticed is even if you buy old used tibia machine, it’s usually in a good shape due to being ignored in gyms. These machines probably get better use in doctors’ offices as a rehab tool than in gyms.

I have some 25 pound standard plates. I don't have or really want 25 pound olympic plates. I have a ton of olympic 45s and 10s, then a few 5s and 2.5s for incremental. 25s would just be in the way. Not that the 25 pound standard plates aren't, but the standard plates are also thinner, so it'd be a slightly more compact unit if it used them.

If I get a separate tibia dorsi machine, I figured it might be safe to go cheap, and there's this one at $190 delivered:

If your budget allows I would consider purchasing 2 of $190 machines and have them shipped to your custom fabricator. Have him turn them into one unilateral machine with longer horns ( at least 15”) and raised above the ground to accept 45s. This way he doesn’t really have to buy any major parts, just cut and weld.

I’d not do it as an attached bench combo to save on footprint.

As far as Sorinex machine goes, I’d stay away from it unless you can have them modify it. To me it looks like whoever designed that thing, threw Tibia section as an afterthought/ embellish or has never done tibia dorsi raises himself.

[Maluket]

Assuming custom fabrication, as a way to avoid heavier plates like 45s, or to save on horn length, just use lever disadvantage. Just move the plates out. Push them out twice as far, and you need half as much weight.

Of course if you want to start the weights at a decline, as I believe you do, pushing them out further means needing to move the point of rotation up higher, so there's a practical limit on how far you can push it before you're sitting on a high stool with your knees in your face.

One option would be to accept decreasing tension through the movement, with the weights at a steeper angle than your toes.

What I'm thinking, though, is that it might be possible to, as with the Gymleco unit, have the weights in line with the unit instead of off to the side, but with them further out to provide more resistance than that Gymleco unit is going to provide, while still being at a fairly practical height off the floor.

Now ideally, we could combine that linear approach with a calf raise machine, and basically get the tibia dorsi flexion for free as far as space required. I'm having a hard time visualizing how to make everything fit in such a tight space, though.

If it's not possible, a combined unit could still be made by instead putting the tibia dorsi flexion on the opposite side, and making a longer instead of wider unit. It's an option, anyway.

I need to fiddle around and see what I can come up with. Probably half of what I'm saying would be obvious complete nonsense if I drew it out on paper.

[AttyGuy]

Awesome thread.

[boxertim]

front calf.jpg

here is mine.....

[AttyGuy]

Boxertim, did you make that machine?

[vic84875]

Breaking news to me, never seen one of those machines. Good info.

[mensagitatmolem]

With respect to weight for me, I start with a set(10) at 50 lbs. next set at 75 then 95 all using strict form and making sure no acute angle on knee/leg as well as all the way up and down. Use 135 then 180 then 205 and final set at 225 on seated calf as a point of reference(15+ per set). All the way up/down on those as well. A newer HS model is what I use. It feels light with low weight, but it feels heavier once I get to 75+

[Maluket]

here is mine.....

That's close to what I was thinking. Thanks for posting that.

With respect to weight for me, I start with a set(10) at 50 lbs. next set at 75 then 95 all using strict form and making sure no acute angle on knee/leg as well as all the way up and down. Use 135 then 180 then 205 and final set at 225 on seated calf as a point of reference(15+ per set). All the way up/down on those as well. A newer HS model is what I use. It feels light with low weight, but it feels heavier once I get to 75+

Cool, thanks. That gives me a good point of reference for how much weight I'll need.

[Jetigen]

Of course if you want to start the weights at a decline, as I believe you do,....

On my Hammer Strength machine the range of motion is super wide. The movement starts at negative 70 degrees and goes far beyond the natural limit of tibia raise. I measured with a digital protractor. Here is a descriptive picture of it:



-
-

I need to fiddle around and see what I can come up with. Probably half of what I'm saying would be obvious complete nonsense if I drew it out on paper.

On a second thought, I'd call Sorinex and ask :

1) how high can the plate horns be raised above the ground?

From the picture below it's obvious that the horns are adjustable.

2) could they customize the machine with longer horns and maybe raise the whole unit by few inches?

3) What is the maximum load the frame can take?


Two big advantages to the Sorinex combo are:

1) The tibia part is unilateral

2) As you mentioned it's space saving.

[Jetigen]

It feels light with low weight, but it feels heavier once I get to 75+

What I noticed the weight progression for tibia raises is slow once you go above 100 lbs mark, at least in my case. Not like standing calf raises where you can just keep adding poundage.

[Jetigen]

Here is Charles Poliquin's take on tibia dorsi raises:

[HealthNutMD]

That Tibia piece on the Sorinex/REFLEX FITNESS seated calf is a separate small piece... you don't need to modify it per say... all you need to do is to request REFLEX FITNESS to make you a tibia attachment with any size length wight horn you want.

Not even the slightest issue: Bryce is really good and cool to work with...

Anyway, those who own the Sorinex know that tibia portion is a very small part that slides on and off with a pop pin adjustment.... no big deal whatsoever to have Bryce make you any length you want. I am really excited about the Donkey calf mod we are doing.

The sorinex tibia pad can be raised essentially infinite, nothing is blocking it...

3) What is the maximum load the frame can take?

As much as you want to put on it...


PS, the pop pin adjustments are screw down as well, they are solid and tighten down, zero wobble. Fully adjustable. Its a great unit.

[HealthNutMD]

As far as Sorinex machine goes, I’d stay away from it unless you can have them modify it. To me it looks like whoever designed that thing, threw Tibia section as an afterthought/ embellish or has never done tibia dorsi raises himself.

and you would be wrong. They worked on that design for a while. Holy crying out loud, you need to use and see this machine in person. As I mentioned before, it is no problem to request a custom weight horn length as well, and the range of motion is more than the anterior tibia itself, there is no limitation. You are talking about a machine you have never used and other in this forum own. If you really like Anterior tibia workouts, your doing a disservice discrediting this machine based on weight horn lengths. If you want 24" long weight horns, all you have to do is ask, it is not a big deal, is is just circular stock metal that is cut to a length.

[vic84875]

Can anyone state that these machine was a major contributor to increasing his lifts? or to help improving calfs ?.

All these information has seduced me. Is very easy to make, and i am feeling tempted to build one.

[boxertim]

Boxertim, did you make that machine?

no i got it for 40 bucks online....i t was a neat piece that i picked up becasue they don't come around ever

[Jetigen]

and you would be wrong. They worked on that design for a while. Holy crying out loud, you need to use and see this machine in person. As I mentioned before, it is no problem to request a custom weight horn length as well, and the range of motion is more than the anterior tibia itself, there is no limitation. You are talking about a machine you have never used and other in this forum own. If you really like Anterior tibia workouts, your doing a disservice discrediting this machine based on weight horn lengths. If you want 24" long weight horns, all you have to do is ask, it is not a big deal, is is just circular stock metal that is cut to a length.

Short horn on tibia dorsi machines are still prevalent among commercial models. Sorinex just followed the trend. Didn't mean to stir up negative emotions, just sharing my impressions based on what I see. There are no machine specs on their site to go on.
http://store.sorinex.com/Seated-Calf...ine-p/ct-1.htm

[matrix563]

http://www.bonanza.com/listings/Tibi...ality/98824875

cheaper price, barbellsusa/barbells4me sells their stuff directly for a cheaper price there. thats how i got the dip bars for less than $100 shipped .

it was your thread jetigen that made me buy the nybb tiba machine. it arrived with a dented piece of metal, but that metal wasn't essential to the function so lived with it. i do want to reglue the foot pad as its coming off, but thats a minor concern. i haven't tried extending the horns yet, but i do have to figure out a way to raise it up, its a lil too short for the 25 pound plates i have. im thiking of just setting it on a left over piece of horse mat. that will raise it enough.

does the hammer strength one fit 25 pounds plates no problems?

[gomez26]

I realized that this muscle group (tibialis anterior) can and must be trained just as heavy as other calf muscles.....

You nailed it as far as the bicep/tricep comparison goes. It surprises me how dorsi flexion overlooked. To me it’s as important as forearm training.
.

thats simply not true. while these exercises may have some value for specific purposes (e.g sports involving sprints for dynamic stability, or rehab) , saying they are as important as calf raises or bicep/tricep balance is not accurate. consider the inherent function - the calves support the entire body weight each time u take a step, what does the tibialis anterior do? raise the weight of the foot? for most people it would be a complete waste of time to put in as much effort training this as the calves & many can get away with not training it at all.
it is overlooked because most people have common sense. nice plug though.

[Jetigen]

thats simply not true. while these exercises may have some value for specific purposes (e.g sports involving sprints for dynamic stability, or rehab) , saying they are as important as calf raises or bicep/tricep balance is not accurate. consider the inherent function - the calves support the entire body weight each time u take a step, what does the tibialis anterior do? raise the weight of the foot? for most people it would be a complete waste of time to put in as much effort training this as the calves & many can get away with not training it at all.
it is overlooked because most people have common sense. nice plug though.

Kinesiology of Exercise Information Products Based on the Work of Dr. Michael Yessis:

One of the most neglected parts of the body is the front of the
shin. Part of the reason for this is that the muscles in this area do
not have great mass and do very little in normal, everyday
activities or in sports. However, this does not mean that they
should be ignored. The shin muscles are most important in
preventing injuries such as shin splints, and they also help to
balance the development of the gastrocnemius and soleus to help
prevent injury.

Sports Uses

The movement involved in dorsi flexion is very valuable in certain sports such as swimming (the breast
stroke), cycling (the up phase), and running (to prepare for a touchdown). In walking and jogging dorsi
flexion raises the toe area of the foot so it clears the ground during the swing phase. Its greatest value
is in keeping the lower leg muscles in balance and for developing the lower legs of bodybuilders.

[Jetigen]

does the hammer strength one fit 25 pounds plates no problems?

Yes, it accepts 25 lbs plates. Here is a picture of my machine with Ivanko 25 lbs. The plate is about 3/4" above the ground on the machine.

[Skidmarx]

Looks like it would be pretty easy to fabricate one of these machines

[HealthNutMD]

Ok, here is the deal. You need to own or use the Sorinex/Reflex Fitness Seated calf to adequately talk about this machine:


You can use 45's on these weight horns. Here is a pic with a 35 on the left and 45 on the right. the Sorinex anterior Tibia is not an afterthought but was the actual design goal. they have a wonderful machine, and it does no service to anybody to discredit this wonderful machine.


If exisiting owners want to have them make a part with a longer weight horn, it is no big deal. Ordering one with a longer weight horm is also no big deal... also, make sure you can use (5) 45's before wasting your time with a longer weight horn. You can load this bad boy up very well as it is in the stock model. What you could do is ask for the wieght horn to be another 4" longer or 6" or whatever when you place your order, however, Just so you know, this machine is a BEAST. It does not need to be rasied any!! Enough of people 'guessing' on this machine.

[deadwoodgregg]

No disrespect to the others as they are probably nice, but that Sorinex looks just badass good! Plus it has that calf raise thingy attached to it.

[rpark]

I agree with healthnutmd and deadwoodgregg. Sorinex is a solid tibia unit. Also, I might be in the minority, but honestly, I don't think that muscle really needs (or benefits much) from heavy weights. I see it as more of a conditioning need than a muscle building need.

[Jetigen]

You can use 45's on these weight horns. Here is a pic with a 35 on the left and 45 on the right. the Sorinex anterior Tibia is not an afterthought but was the actual design goal. they have a wonderful machine, and it does no service to anybody to discredit this wonderful machine.

Sorinex might be the only machine that accepts 45lbs plates on the market, at least that's the first one I see. Wish you'd have taken more pictures of it, I mean in full.

IMO, Sorinex needs to do a better job in describing their products, both visually and in words.