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  1. #1
    Registered User njay25's Avatar
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    13 Questions regarding Layne Norton PHAT Routine

    Hello,

    I understand that many of you have probably answered a few of these questions before, but my questionnaire was well thought-out and your responses will truly pay huge dividends for me. I am very granular when it comes to weight training and hope to maximize my potential. Please look at the questions listed below and respond to as many as you can handle. I appreciate it! (Jason)

    1. Does each body part that will be focused on need to be warmed up via a specific exercise that specifically targets it? If so,how many sets and reps for each one?

    2. On Power days, how many minutes on average should be allotted for rest in between sets? Layne basically says to begin when you feel fully recuperated.

    3. What should the rep tempo be for both the Power and Hypertrophy days?

    4. His directions on going to failure are a bit ambiguous to me. Once acclimated to the routine, how often should I go to failure and should failure apply to both the Power and Hypertrophy days or only the Power Day?

    5. Layne endorses regular Deadlifts in his article and videos. Have any of you switched out an exercise to put them into the website’s routine and on what day, rep range, sets, etc?

    6. I noticed on various websites that Layne has routines that are different than the one currently posted on the Simply Shredded website. Which one is the best?

    7. Is there a nutrition plan that accompanies the routine?

    8. I have never performed Rack Chins before and noticed that they are listed after pull ups on the Power Day for Back. Isn’t this like performing the same exercise consecutively? Please elaborate.

    9. I noticed that Layne does not include any Barbell work for Chest. Have you found this to hinder or improve your physique/strength levels?

    10. On Power Days, for example, some exercises call for 2 sets of 6-10 reps. Should I aim for 9-10 reps, 8-9, 7-8 or 6-7? Similarly, on the Hypertrophy days, side laterals are instructed to be performed for 3 sets of 12-20 reps. What should the rep range be closest to?

    11. Layne suggests rotating Power movements every few weeks. Have you done this and do you switch up his routines periodically or stay with the same one for at least 8 weeks?

    12. I noticed that there is no forearm work. Do you feel that there is a need to incorporate it and if so, what would the routine look like?

    13. For the hypertrophy pulling movement on day for, Layne gives an option to perform DB Rows or Shrugs (Makes no sense to me). Which exercise should I perform?
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  2. #2
    Registered User comps's Avatar
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    1. Warming up once should be enough for all the following exercises IMO.

    2. Literally what you typed. When you're completely ready. Normally 3-5 minutes.

    3. It really depends on what type of form you plan on doing, Power: 1/0/1 would be fine, while 1/1/1 would be good for other exercises. Hypertrophy either 2/0/1 or 2/1/1.

    4. Not sure, too lazy to read.

    5. Have not done it, but I have completely stopped deadlifting due to a few personal reasons. One of which is being blood clots. Deadlifts seems to aggravate just a little as well with squats, but I like squats.

    6. No idea, there are tons of variations.

    7. High protein, high carb, low/medium fats. Just a guess. Your average diet.

    8. They're both similar and I'm assuming rack chins a lot of the core from the movement and maybe targeting the lats more in relation to this.

    9. It is pretty much the same. DBs allow more ROM (which most people don't even take advantage of), and barbells allow easier weight progression since you can add a total of 5lbs onto the bar while on DBs you have to add 5lb per DB.

    10. Do what you feel. Once you hit 2 sets of 10, bump up the weight next time.

    11. Not sure.

    12. IMO, no point in doing forearm workouts unless you specifically need strong forearms for your job lol.

    13. They're a certain type of shrugs that hit your lats I believe lmao. He explains them. I'd suggest the DB rows, but then you'll have more volume since you're doing each arm.






    **** that took forever.
    Last edited by comps; 01-02-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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  3. #3
    Registered User varunj17's Avatar
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    One simple answer to all your questions:

    PHAT is overrated!!!!!
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  4. #4
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    Originally Posted by varunj17 View Post
    One simple answer to all your questions:

    PHAT is overrated!!!!!
    Care to elaborate why you believe this??
    I rep back :) (measly reps)

    Goals: SIZE
    Bench: 295lbs
    Squat: 450lbs
    Deadlift: 500lbs

    *Doesn't look like I lift but I actually lift crew*
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  5. #5
    Rise Of The Weak Squatter GinjaNinja85's Avatar
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    PHAT is for experienced lifters. Are you sure you're experienced enough given that you have all these questions?
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  6. #6
    STFU and train Jasonk282's Avatar
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    Me thinks you need a beginner routine...especially if you have 13 questions about a program.
    I'm here to chew bubble gum and kick ass...and I'm all out of bubble gum.

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  7. #7
    NGA\IFPA Pro Bodybuilder fltallpaul's Avatar
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    The Power Hypertrophy Adaptive Training system is not a program, it is a philosophy. The basic principle is that you combine both power or strength training with hypertrophy training. You can use any platform you prefer for both setups. If you have never done any type of power-lifting program like Sheiko, Westside barbell, 5\3\1, Juggernaut then you are already missing a major component. The power days are beneficial only if you are using a form of periodization so that you are constantly making progress.

    As far as hypertrophy goes that is highly individual as well and based on your power days. I setup my PHAT routine so that the first movement on my Hypertrophy days is also the first movement on my power days. So if I am working on heavy bench press, I will be doing 3-4 sets of 8-12 on my hypertrophy day.

    In my opinion you are over thinking things a bit too much. It's called paralysis by analysis. Bottom line is pick a routine, get in the gym and kill it for a few months. From there you can start adapting, but don't be afraid to make mistakes.
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  8. #8
    Registered User tzalma1's Avatar
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    agree with most of the posters above me, you seem to be asking way too many questions in regard to the program to be experienced enough to handle it....get over to the nutrition section and read the stickies to get squared up there, then head back here to pick one of the suggested beginner routines
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  9. #9
    Registered User njay25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Jasonk282 View Post
    Me thinks you need a beginner routine...especially if you have 13 questions about a program.

    I don't understand your correlation between 13 questions and limited experience. I have a lot of weight training experience, but want to make sure that I maximize what the routine has to offer. Someone who has been on the program will know much better than myself. Secondly, all of my questions are legitimate. If Layne says to perform 3 sets of 12-20, conventional wisdom says that each set performed will reduce the amount of reps executed by one. Therefore, should I aim more for 12-14, which is in the 12-20 rep range, or 18-20? This is a legitimate question because picking one over the other will yield different effects. Rather than making an ill-advised, snide remark, you could either not respond or write something substantial that will add to the efficacy of the discussion board forum. This is why I usually do not ask for advice on these forums. It is due to people who are more interested in writing one-liners than to help someone out. The fact that you couldn't view the legitimacy in my questions as someone who is detailed-oriented, rather than inexperienced, simply underscores your ineptitude from a cerebral standpoint as it pertains to weight training. How about putting your shirt on and adding something positive to the brotherhood of lifters who attend this site.

    For the rest of you folks who traditionally opt to make sarcastic comments as opposed to adding valuable input, get off of your high horse and get off of the site. I am not looking to get into a war of words, so don't expect anymore comments from me, irrespective of your responses to this post. It's just that many of you on here think you know more than you do and have the audacity to belittle people, many of whom you couldn't hold a candle to, that are only looking to refine their craft. For those of you who fit this bill, do something more productive with your time. Regarding those who care enough to actually answer a poster's questions in a thoughtful manner, thank you for your concern.
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  10. #10
    Registered User musikguy72's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by njay25 View Post
    I don't understand your correlation between 13 questions and limited experience. I have a lot of weight training experience, but want to make sure that I maximize what the routine has to offer. Someone who has been on the program will know much better than myself. Secondly, all of my questions are legitimate. If Layne says to perform 3 sets of 12-20, conventional wisdom says that each set performed will reduce the amount of reps executed by one. Therefore, should I aim more for 12-14, which is in the 12-20 rep range, or 18-20? This is a legitimate question because picking one over the other will yield different effects. Rather than making an ill-advised, snide remark, you could either not respond or write something substantial that will add to the efficacy of the discussion board forum. This is why I usually do not ask for advice on these forums. It is due to people who are more interested in writing one-liners than to help someone out. The fact that you couldn't view the legitimacy in my questions as someone who is detailed-oriented, rather than inexperienced, simply underscores your ineptitude from a cerebral standpoint as it pertains to weight training. How about putting your shirt on and adding something positive to the brotherhood of lifters who attend this site.

    For the rest of you folks who traditionally opt to make sarcastic comments as opposed to adding valuable input, get off of your high horse and get off of the site. I am not looking to get into a war of words, so don't expect anymore comments from me, irrespective of your responses to this post. It's just that many of you on here think you know more than you do and have the audacity to belittle people, many of whom you couldn't hold a candle to, that are only looking to refine their craft. For those of you who fit this bill, do something more productive with your time. Regarding those who care enough to actually answer a poster's questions in a thoughtful manner, thank you for your concern.
    Take a step back and clean the sand out of your vag. They ARE helping you.
    Your questions are legit but not for someone who claims to have a lot of weight lifting experience. You are asking newbie questions which leads us to believe that PHAT is too advanced for you.
    You will probably make better progress on a beginners routine with an aggressive progression scheme but you'll never know because you've convinced yourself that you are an experienced lifter (who asks questions like which routine is the 'best').

    By all means, ask questions. But listen to the answers and find a routine that fits your training level so you can actually gain from the knowledge.
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  11. #11
    Registered User njay25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by GinjaNinja85 View Post
    PHAT is for experienced lifters. Are you sure you're experienced enough given that you have all these questions?

    What is with you? I ask a question such as "What should the tempo be for both the power and hypertrophy reps?" and that suggests to you that I am inexperienced? Every question I wrote should indicate to you that I have a lot of experience. If I didn't, the questions wouldn't be as thorough and advanced. I asked people how they warm up for this particular routine, specifically because I have performed split routines in the past as opposed to full body ones. Answer the questions instead of issuing a statement that will be of no use to me. I have completed many routines before and once held an AAU record for my age/weight class in the bench press (Raw). I probably know a lot more than you so quit pontificating and add something valuable to the post.
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  12. #12
    Registered User njay25's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by musikguy72 View Post
    Take a step back and clean the sand out of your vag. They ARE helping you.
    Your questions are legit but not for someone who claims to have a lot of weight lifting experience. You are asking newbie questions which leads us to believe that PHAT is too advanced for you.
    You will probably make better progress on a beginners routine with an aggressive progression scheme but you'll never know because you've convinced yourself that you are an experienced lifter (who asks questions like which routine is the 'best').

    By all means, ask questions. But listen to the answers and find a routine that fits your training level so you can actually gain from the knowledge.

    Whether or not YOU feel as those they are newbie qustions or not, how about actually answering them. It is not up to you whether or not I try the routine amd I shouldn't have to defend my experience or ability to you. All you have to do is ANSWER THE QUESTIONS! I didn't ask you whether or not you feel like I should try it or not. Therefore, stick to what is being asked and if you can't handle that, then don't say anything at all.
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  13. #13
    Rise Of The Weak Squatter GinjaNinja85's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by njay25 View Post
    What is with you? I ask a question such as "What should the tempo be for both the power and hypertrophy reps?" and that suggests to you that I am inexperienced? Every question I wrote should indicate to you that I have a lot of experience. If I didn't, the questions wouldn't be as thorough and advanced. I asked people how they warm up for this particular routine, specifically because I have performed split routines in the past as opposed to full body ones. Answer the questions instead of issuing a statement that will be of no use to me. I have completed many routines before and once held an AAU record for my age/weight class in the bench press (Raw). I probably know a lot more than you so quit pontificating and add something valuable to the post.
    You must be the most butthurt OP of all the many butthurt OPs I have witnessed on this site full of butthurt OPs. How do you warm up? Are you joking? Use your brain and/or the search function. Lulz.

    Edit: I was supposed to neg you. I actually repped you. Damn it. You deserve negs for your hormonal behaviour.
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  14. #14
    Registered User musikguy72's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by njay25 View Post
    Whether or not YOU feel as those they are newbie qustions or not, how about actually answering them.
    Because I feel like if I teach an 'experienced lifter' how to warmup so he can do an advanced routine, I am just putting a bandaid on a bigger problem. I'd rather see you do a routine that fits your training level, but at this point I'm pretty sure you're going to do what you want anyway.

    Good luck with your 2013 fitness goals.
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    Hey guys. I dont mean to jack this thread but my thread isnt getting too big of a hit and this doesnt seem to be anything but arguing. So I made this phat layout with a little less volume than the normal one and I want a quick critique on it. I plan to reorder the exercises on power days and probably take out the db strict press on upper power and replace it with a pulling movement. Dont be too harsh, this was my first attempt at making it. Thanks!

    Day 1-upper power
    Bench. 3x3-5
    Weighted dips. 2x5-10
    Row. 3x3-5
    Weighted pullups. 2x5-10
    Oh. 3x3-5
    Seated db press strict. 3x5-10

    Day 2-lower power
    Squats. 3x3-5
    Hack squats. 2x6-10
    Stiff leggged dl. 3x5-8
    Lying leg curls. 2x6-10
    Calf raises. 3x8-12

    Day 3-chest shoulders tricep hyper
    Bench. 3x8-12
    Incline. 2x12-15
    Dips. 2x8-15
    Oh. 3x8-12
    Side lateral raise. 2x8-15
    Front lateral raise. 2x8-15
    Tricep direct. 2x12-20

    Day 4-leg hyper
    Squat. 3x8-12
    Hack squats. 2x10-15
    Lunges. 2x6-10 (each leg)
    Romanian dl. 3x8-12
    Lying leg curls. 2x12-20
    Calves. 2x15-20

    Day 5-back and biceps hyper
    Rows. 3x8-12
    Db rows. 2x10-15
    Chinups. 3x8-12
    Pulldowns. 2x10-15
    Preach curls. 2x12-15
    Concentration curls. 2x15-20
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  16. #16
    Registered User comps's Avatar
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    @ above, why did you decide to separate the chest/arms hypertrophy and the back.shoulders hypertrophy day into completely different days. Just wondering.

    Add direct rear delt work.
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    Originally Posted by chrissypoo1991 View Post
    Hey guys. I dont mean to jack this thread but my thread isnt getting too big of a hit and this doesnt seem to be anything but arguing. So I made this phat layout with a little less volume than the normal one and I want a quick critique on it. I plan to reorder the exercises on power days and probably take out the db strict press on upper power and replace it with a pulling movement. Dont be too harsh, this was my first attempt at making it. Thanks!

    Day 1-upper power
    Bench. 3x3-5
    Weighted dips. 2x5-10
    Row. 3x3-5
    Weighted pullups. 2x5-10
    Oh. 3x3-5
    Seated db press strict. 3x5-10

    Day 2-lower power
    Squats. 3x3-5
    Hack squats. 2x6-10
    Stiff leggged dl. 3x5-8
    Lying leg curls. 2x6-10
    Calf raises. 3x8-12

    Day 3-chest shoulders tricep hyper
    Bench. 3x8-12
    Incline. 2x12-15
    Dips. 2x8-15
    Oh. 3x8-12
    Side lateral raise. 2x8-15
    Front lateral raise. 2x8-15
    Tricep direct. 2x12-20

    Day 4-leg hyper
    Squat. 3x8-12
    Hack squats. 2x10-15
    Lunges. 2x6-10 (each leg)
    Romanian dl. 3x8-12
    Lying leg curls. 2x12-20
    Calves. 2x15-20

    Day 5-back and biceps hyper
    Rows. 3x8-12
    Db rows. 2x10-15
    Chinups. 3x8-12
    Pulldowns. 2x10-15
    Preach curls. 2x12-15
    Concentration curls. 2x15-20
    My personal opinion... Lose some pressing from upper power to balance it out with pulling and add rear delt work to shoulders, like face pulls, possibly at the expense of front laterals. Consider including front squats somehow.

    Take that with a pinch of salt, I have never built a PHAT program.
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    Originally Posted by comps View Post
    @ above, why did you decide to separate the chest/arms hypertrophy and the back.shoulders hypertrophy day into completely different days. Just wondering.

    Add direct rear delt work.
    It actually just turned out that way when I started throwing exercises together. But I like the idea of a chest/arms hypertrophy day seeing as that's where I am lagging most. I may restructure the lifts to have a separate day for it. And nice catch on the rear delt. I totally missed that
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    Originally Posted by GinjaNinja85 View Post
    You must be the most butthurt OP of all the many butthurt OPs I have witnessed on this site full of butthurt OPs. How do you warm up? Are you joking? Use your brain and/or the search function. Lulz.

    Edit: I was supposed to neg you. I actually repped you. Damn it. You deserve negs for your hormonal behaviour.

    The reason that I inquired about warming up is because each person may have a different philosophical approach to warming up, as does occur within each routine. All that I wanted to know was if there was a type of warm up specific to the PHAT program. For example, Max OT has a warm up that they feel will be most productive for the lifter, in contrast to performing 3 sets of ten, for example. Please spare me your childish remarks and find a way to positively contribute to the forum.
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    Originally Posted by musikguy72 View Post
    Because I feel like if I teach an 'experienced lifter' how to warmup so he can do an advanced routine, I am just putting a bandaid on a bigger problem. I'd rather see you do a routine that fits your training level, but at this point I'm pretty sure you're going to do what you want anyway.

    Good luck with your 2013 fitness goals.

    The reason that I inquired about warming up is because each person may have a different philosophical approach to warming up, as does occur within each routine. All that I wanted to know was if there was a type of warm up specific to the PHAT program. For example, Max OT has a warm up that they feel will be most productive for the lifter, in contrast to performing 3 sets of ten, for example.
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    Originally Posted by GinjaNinja85 View Post
    My personal opinion... Lose some pressing from upper power to balance it out with pulling and add rear delt work to shoulders, like face pulls, possibly at the expense of front laterals. Consider including front squats somehow.

    Take that with a pinch of salt, I have never built a PHAT program.
    Good spot! I totally didnt even notice the real delt work. And yea I was thinking abiut dropping the db press for a pulling movement. I also was trying to figure out a way to incorporate deadlifts and front squats. Maybe cycle the deadlifts in with squats... and front squats on hypertrophy days. Also speed work was a maybe. I think it would help
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    Originally Posted by chrissypoo1991 View Post
    I also was trying to figure out a way to incorporate deadlifts and front squats. Maybe cycle the deadlifts in with squats... and front squats on hypertrophy days.
    TBH, though SLDL is fine for the hyper day, not crazy about using it w/ extra weight on the power day, too. Would put your front sq there -- that day already has a ton other hamstring work, Fronts would balance it. The DL/Squat swap is a reasonable plan.

    Know any good jokes? I'm stuck on the one where the rabbi, a hooker and a pelican walk into a bar, and ....


    EDIT: oh, I think I read that wrong -- the SLDL isn't on the hyper day, "too", it's the RDLs doing some of that work. Still, in light of the other exercise selection you have, not seeing a compelling need for it.


    ... and it was a lesbian pelican.
    Last edited by Joe2DovesGiotto; 01-03-2013 at 03:51 PM.
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    Originally Posted by Joe2DovesGiotto View Post
    TBH, though SLDL is fine for the hyper day, not crazy about using it w/ extra weight on the power day, too. Would put your front sq there -- that day already has a ton other hamstring work, Fronts would balance it. The DL/Squat swap is a reasonable plan.

    Know any good jokes? I'm stuck on the one where the rabbi, a hooker and a pelican walk into a bar, and ....


    EDIT: oh, I think I read that wrong -- the SLDL isn't on the hyper day, "too", it's the RDLs doing some of that work. Still, in light of the other exercise selection you have, not seeing a compelling need for it.


    ... and it was a lesbian pelican.
    Aaahhhhh so maybe switch the rdl on hyper day to a sldl and for power day switch the sldl to front squats??
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    Originally Posted by chrissypoo1991 View Post
    Aaahhhhh so maybe switch the rdl on hyper day to a sldl and for power day switch the sldl to front squats??
    Yup. There won't be a lot of "net effect" difference -- a little more lower back on the SLDL. I prefer the little extra safety margin on the RDL, but it'll all come out about the same.
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    For a lot of these your over thinking too much way to much. Eating program bulk or cut calories in vs calories out, no program requires a certain ratio of carbs to fat, that is all hype. Same with warm ups, do you think benching in one program will need a separate warm up than another? Do they use different muscles?

    10. If its 8-10 that means on week 1 if you do 80 lbs for 8 reps next week you do 80 lbs, if week 2 you do 10 reps, then week 3 you do 85 lbs. Now on week 3 you should be able to do 8 reps at 85 lbs.

    So in short do a weight you can do at least (x) amount of reps and move up when you can do (y) amount. x-y 12-20, 10-12, 6-8, etc.
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    Originally Posted by Faust24 View Post
    For a lot of these your over thinking too much way to much. Eating program bulk or cut calories in vs calories out, no program requires a certain ratio of carbs to fat, that is all hype. Same with warm ups, do you think benching in one program will need a separate warm up than another? Do they use different muscles?

    10. If its 8-10 that means on week 1 if you do 80 lbs for 8 reps next week you do 80 lbs, if week 2 you do 10 reps, then week 3 you do 85 lbs. Now on week 3 you should be able to do 8 reps at 85 lbs.

    So in short do a weight you can do at least (x) amount of reps and move up when you can do (y) amount. x-y 12-20, 10-12, 6-8, etc.

    Thank for your feedback. My concern was that only performing warm up sets for Bench Press would not neccessarily suffice if the biceps are involved in the same workout. I understand that the biceps would be indirectly involved, but to move on to heavy curls without having performed one warm up set of bicep curls was something that I was unsure of. Remember, I did state that I have performed split routines for years and have not been accustomed to a full body workout. Secondly, I understand your explanation for number ten, but a 12-20 rep range is so vast that it would take several weeks just to reach the 20 reps before adding on more weight. If the goal is to increase resistance progressively, this method of operation would seem to be counterintuitive. I hate when a routine says 6-10 reps because it is to ambiguous. A person won't neccessarily interpret it in the same manner that you have. I wish these things would be clearly delineated. The problem is that I have a very black & white preference when it comes to training. I want to know exactly would I should do, without there being any gray area. This is where some critics on the board interpret my extensive questioning as being a result of inexperience. Again, my warm up questions are valid, since some routines, ala Max ot, call for a specific warm up regimen. That is all I was asking.

    Thanks for a serious response. If more people would simply respond to a question, rather than offering a snide and useless comment, then certainly more would be accomplished. Even if the posters felt that I "wasn't ready" for the PHAT routine due to their inaccurate perceptions derived from my 13 questions, simply answering those questions would be of more value than only telling me that I should be on something else. These people don't know me and were only asked to answer questions, not to opine on something that fits into their own agenda. Doesn't that make sense?
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    On power day your biceps should be already warm via the heavy back work. I do warm up sets for the heavy back work , heavy bench work. And I do a general warm up before the work out of active stretching ,activation work and maybe some foam rolling
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    Originally Posted by GinjaNinja85 View Post
    PHAT is for experienced lifters. Are you sure you're experienced enough given that you have all these questions?
    This is right.

    Its very taxing when done when its principles are implemented properly, especially for a beginner.

    And no - its not overrated IMO.
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    Originally Posted by adoniscomplex View Post
    On power day your biceps should be already warm via the heavy back work. I do warm up sets for the heavy back work , heavy bench work. And I do a general warm up before the work out of active stretching ,activation work and maybe some foam rolling

    I'm sorry. I got confused because on the hypertrophy day it is labeled as Chest and Arms. I forgot that there is both back and bicep work on the 1st power day, which would certainly preclude me from needing to perform a bicep workout. Thanks.
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    Njay these forums arent for the sensitive. The guys on here are some tough dudes. They will be brutally honest and a lot of them are some very wise guys. I promise they do know what they are talking about. Now you havent stated at all any lifting stats or body stats. These would be the judge of where you are in your lifting experience. Would you kindly put your bench press, squat, and deadlift numbers along with height, weight, and bf% if you know it. Would get a lot of these guys off of your back and help everybody out in here
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