Why???

[BearLovesLuna]

I am fairly new to this all, but I have done a lot of reading. Some of my opinions have been changed by those on these forums, etc..., and some of what I "think" I know I have obtained mostly from a lot of research.

I have a question that stems from my question "What do you do differently (very differently) when you cut vs when you bulk? Of course I don't mean just eat more or less... or adding diet aids when cutting.

I.E., some people might go off some things, or add some things, depending on what they are trying to achieve. Mostly I am wondering about supplements here.

The REAL question I have though is this-

IF you truly cannot gain muscle mass when cutting, then why would I continue with a bunch of supplements that are supposed to help me gain muscle mass faster? Am I to believe that taking any product on a cut that is intended to help me gain mass will also help me preserve mass in the cut?

I can't recall if it was Lyle or another of the dietary experts who said that in a cut what you needed to do was remind the body that you have to keep the muscle, so therefore, keep most of your workout intensity high- but everyone seems to agree your lifting power will go down on a cut-

I am just thinking that, with all the money one might spend on basic supps like whey, pre workouts, bcaa's, creatine, islolated leucine ( I take due to my age), all of those are for helping create muscle. Could one not just eat well on a cut and expect to retain as much muscle as someone taking supplements, as long as they kept their intensity high???

I just don't know if I see the advantage of taking something like creatine or leucine when I am NOT expected to be actually gaining muscle mass. I can't see that my body would "need" me to recover my ATP cycle faster when on a cut, where all I am trying to do by working out is signal to my body that the muscle is necessary?

Anyone have some advice on this?

[eatyourspinach]

One does not NEED any supplements. Your tangent states it for you. "Could one not just eat well on a cut and expect to retain as much muscle as someone taking supplements, as long as they kept their intensity high???". The answer is yes supplements can just be beneficial in some regards.

[hercules455]

In a nutshell...what works to build muscle works to keep muscle when cutting. The only that really needs to change is calories and maybe a slight increase in protein intake as you lower carbs while still slowly decreasing calories. I also take more BCAAs when cutting.

[BearLovesLuna]

In a nutshell...what works to build muscle works to keep muscle when cutting. The only that really needs to change is calories and maybe a slight increase in protein intake as you lower carbs while still slowly decreasing calories. I also take more BCAAs when cutting.

You look great- great job...


I am still learning and I am not trying to be confrontational, but I have to ask why BCAA's would be beneficial on a cut. If I truly cannot build muscle, why would I care that the aminos would be "readily accessible" (i.e., broken down and ready for immediate use)?

I could see where one would make an argument for them on a bulk, as you want to take advantage of every waking moment (some of those moments are early morning, when you have let your protein perhaps be lax for 7-10 hours)- so BCAA's in the early morning on a hard worked out bulk would maybe make sense to me... but, on a cut, where you are eating well around the (awakened) clock?

If you are doing these BCAA's, on a cut, are you doing them in the morning, in order to prevent a catabolic state in/on your muscles? If not, and you are taking them "around" a workout, why????

I am still trying to get my head around the idea that I need anything extra when on a cut. If I cannot build anything, why would I need anything "extra" in my system than a great full macro day?

I can see on a bulk where I would want to make and take every advantage I could for the increased hard work I am able to do due to the increased calories and nutrients, and where creatine and leucine and stimulants would help me work out at a level much higher than I normally could, but I cannot see a way that helps on a cut if I am not able to create muscle. If I have high protein intake as I do on a bulk, and work out as hard as I can (well, a bit short of that, according to an expert I cannot remember the name of right now), I can't see where supps (creatine, pre workouts, whey, bcaa's) would be an advantage.

Maybe the pre's for just the mental boost, and the whey for the low carb/low cal/high protein content, but, for muscle retention???

Necessary???

[hercules455]

You look great- great job...


I am still learning and I am not trying to be confrontational, but I have to ask why BCAA's would be beneficial on a cut. If I truly cannot build muscle, why would I care that the aminos would be "readily accessible" (i.e., broken down and ready for immediate use)?

Because when you train you break muscle down....you still aminos readily available for protein synthesis to repair/rebuild/maintain

I could see where one would make an argument for them on a bulk, as you want to take advantage of every waking moment (some of those moments are early morning, when you have let your protein perhaps be lax for 7-10 hours)- so BCAA's in the early morning on a hard worked out bulk would maybe make sense to me... but, on a cut, where you are eating well around the (awakened) clock?

I think your idea of a bulk and a cut are a bit different from mine. As a competitive athlete you still measure your food and play close attention to your macros making sure that you are in a calorie surplus. You tend to not need as much supplemental BCAAs when your calories are up. During a cut you are in a calorie deficit through diet and cardio and having extra BCAAs to promote protein synthesis is very helpful to at least maintain as much muscle mass as possible. This become more crucial the longer you are in a cut and as your cardio increases.

If you are doing these BCAA's, on a cut, are you doing them in the morning, in order to prevent a catabolic state in/on your muscles? If not, and you are taking them "around" a workout, why????

If I choose to train with out eating anything I most definitely have BCAAs ...usually 10grams pre and 5 grams intra. Same reasons I stated above.

I am still trying to get my head around the idea that I need anything extra when on a cut. If I cannot build anything, why would I need anything "extra" in my system than a great full macro day?

Depending on how knew you are you may still be able to add some lean mass.....but regardless you want to maintain as much muscle mass as you can while cutting.

I can see on a bulk where I would want to make and take every advantage I could for the increased hard work I am able to do due to the increased calories and nutrients, and where creatine and leucine and stimulants would help me work out at a level much higher than I normally could, but I cannot see a way that helps on a cut if I am not able to create muscle. If I have high protein intake as I do on a bulk, and work out as hard as I can (well, a bit short of that, according to an expert I cannot remember the name of right now), I can't see where supps (creatine, pre workouts, whey, bcaa's) would be an advantage.

Maybe the pre's for just the mental boost, and the whey for the low carb/low cal/high protein content, but, for muscle retention???

Pre's are great for energy if you need one. Go in calorie defecit for 12-16 weeks straight and see if you feel like crushing it in the gym. They help believe me especially if you have a full life outside of the gym.

Necessary???

Again what builds muscle will maintain muscle!!

[hercules455]

Again what builds muscle will maintain muscle!!

My answers to your questions are above in the quote.

[Dokdonia]

One CAN increase muscle mass while losing fat in a calorie deficit. Is it optimal? No especially as one closes in on their genetic potential.

[llahhsoj]

One CAN increase muscle mass while losing fat in a calorie deficit. Is it optimal? No especially as one closes in on their genetic potential.

I agree it can be done. Most people that can do this is either obese, new to training, or both. For someone that has been training a good amount of time, they person really has to be tuned in with their diet. Most people aren't.