Differences between the beginner 5x5's (SS, JasonDB's, StrongLifts, Babylover's)

[DetMatthews]

The most recommended beginner programs are 5x5 programs and for good reason. Below are four of the most recommended, and my take on their pros and cons. There are some cons that people might think are a good thing, and vice versa for pros. I'm basing these on the program's ability to put on size. Starting Strength and Babylover's modified version are included because they are similar in exercise selection and progression.

Any critiques, opinions, or flames are welcome. The more good info in this thread, regardless of opinion, the better. These are in no particular order.

Starting Strength
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...training+guide

Pros
- Builds the highest absolute strength out of all four programs
- Very simple, few exercises, allows for form to be perfected through repetition

Cons
- 3x5 is not the best volume for size
- Can get boring
- Template actively discourages assistance exercises

My take: I like SS as a beginner routine because it sets up the lifter for lots of progress in their intermediate routine. The 3x5 setup allows for longer rest periods and lower volume, resulting in higher poundages and more strength. A person who's strong has more potential for size than that same person who is weak. Size is not its main goal, but you certainly gain some. After about 20 pounds of mostly lean bodyweight, you start to put on fat as you are chasing those marginal strength gains. OK for some, not for others. But by that point most lifters are advanced enough for a hypertrophy-specific routine anyway. With regards to assistance, my opinion has always been if it doesn't detract from the core lifts, just add it. Rippetoe discourages it, whatever. He is very smart and created a very good program, but if a lack of arm isolation is going to keep you from doing an otherwise excellent program, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Just add the isolation and get on with your day. It won't ruin the program just like it doesn't ruin these other programs.

Starting Strength is scalable based on recovery as well. Pulling from the floor every workout getting to you? Alternate pulls with chins and hypers. Squatting too often messing up recovery? Add in front squats once a week. Squatting and deadlifting too much in the same workout? Make that a light squat day. If you are an athlete or just someone looking to get "big and strong", this is probably the best choice for you. If you are looking for size now then another program would probably be better.

Ice Cream Fitness Novice 5x5 Fullbody (JasonDB)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=148036063

Pros
- 5x5 for compounds lifts great for size
- Good amount of volume and isolation
- Complete template keeps unknowledgeable beginners from making detrimental changes

Cons
- Volume may be more than a beginner needs
- Workout time may keep rest times to a minimum, resulting in lower poundages

My take: JasonDB's routine is a little much for a true gym virgin. A beginner can make great gains off of significantly less volume, then take advantage of the volume better when they are more of an advanced novice. That said, with the lifter at that point, this routine is probably the best out of the four for size by a long shot.

StrongLifts 5x5
http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5...ining-program/
(couldn't find a good forum link)

Pros
- 5x5 for compound lifts great for size
- Very simple, few exercises, allows for form to be perfected through repetition

Cons
- Can get boring
- Template actively discourages assistance exercises

My take: As you can see from the pros and cons it has some of each of the first two programs. It shares the core lifts and their sets/reps with Ice Cream, and the simplicity of SS. This makes it great as a transition to the Ice Cream Fitness routine. You could even add the assistance lifts one by one as you need them until you are doing JasonDB's routine entirely. On the other hand, it's also scalable to less volume. If you find recovery is an issue, you can drop to sets of 4x5 and then to 3x5, making it SS without power cleans. Rows are a better overall upper back builder, power cleans help to build explosiveness for a stronger deadlift. Really an either or based on goals. And, as with SS, if you want to add the assistance and it won't detract from the core lifts, just add it. No big deal.

Babylover's modified version of Starting Strength
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...21&pagenumber=

Pros
- Alternated squats and front squats make this ideal for doing on back to back days
- Assistance optional and built into the template

Cons
- 3x5 on core lifts is not the best volume for size
- Lack of back squats every workout makes this inferior if you are only doing 3x a week

My take: This is the only program suitable for back to back workouts because of the squats so if that's all your schedule affords this is a great choice. It loses any advantages it has over the other programs if it's done with the same frequency. Basically, back squats 3x a week is better for strength and size than back squats 1.5x a week. The assistance is good, and hits a weak point of SS. But due to my Nike view of assistance, I don't feel like it adds much when those same exercises can be added to Starting Strength or StrongLifts without a problem. With regards to pressing, with increased frequency, recovery and progression may become an issue.

So there's my attempt to simplify and compare those beginner workouts which make up a large portion of the recommendations on the forum. In reality, every single one is very good and no matter which you choose it's probably better than most other workouts. Please add whatever you want, tell me I'm completely wrong, or agree with me. Just get some good info here for beginners to see so they can make an educated decision.

[McWinning]

good read, thank you for breaking them down

[bravo96]

The most recommended beginner programs are 5x5 programs and for good reason. Below are four of the most recommended, and my take on their pros and cons. There are some cons that people might think are a good thing, and vice versa for pros. I'm basing these on the program's ability to put on size. Starting Strength and Babylover's modified version are included because they are similar in exercise selection and progression.

Any critiques, opinions, or flames are welcome. The more good info in this thread, regardless of opinion, the better. These are in no particular order.

Starting Strength
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...training+guide

Pros
- Builds the highest absolute strength out of all four programs
- Very simple, few exercises, allows for form to be perfected through repetition

Cons
- 3x5 is not the best volume for size
- Can get boring
- Template actively discourages assistance exercises

My take: I like SS as a beginner routine because it sets up the lifter for lots of progress in their intermediate routine. The 3x5 setup allows for longer rest periods and lower volume, resulting in higher poundages and more strength. A person who's strong has more potential for size than that same person who is weak. Size is not its main goal, but you certainly gain some. After about 20 pounds of mostly lean bodyweight, you start to put on fat as you are chasing those marginal strength gains. OK for some, not for others. But by that point most lifters are advanced enough for a hypertrophy-specific routine anyway. With regards to assistance, my opinion has always been if it doesn't detract from the core lifts, just add it. Rippetoe discourages it, whatever. He is very smart and created a very good program, but if a lack of arm isolation is going to keep you from doing an otherwise excellent program, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Just add the isolation and get on with your day. It won't ruin the program just like it doesn't ruin these other programs.

Starting Strength is scalable based on recovery as well. Pulling from the floor every workout getting to you? Alternate pulls with chins and hypers. Squatting too often messing up recovery? Add in front squats once a week. Squatting and deadlifting too much in the same workout? Make that a light squat day. If you are an athlete or just someone looking to get "big and strong", this is probably the best choice for you. If you are looking for size now then another program would probably be better.

Ice Cream Fitness Novice 5x5 Fullbody (JasonDB)
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=148036063

Pros
- 5x5 for compounds lifts great for size
- Good amount of volume and isolation
- Complete template keeps unknowledgeable beginners from making detrimental changes

Cons
- Volume may be more than a beginner needs
- Workout time may keep rest times to a minimum, resulting in lower poundages

My take: JasonDB's routine is a little much for a true gym virgin. A beginner can make great gains off of significantly less volume, then take advantage of the volume better when they are more of an advanced novice. That said, with the lifter at that point, this routine is probably the best out of the four for size by a long shot.

StrongLifts 5x5
http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5...ining-program/
(couldn't find a good forum link)

Pros
- 5x5 for compound lifts great for size
- Very simple, few exercises, allows for form to be perfected through repetition

Cons
- Can get boring
- Template actively discourages assistance exercises

My take: As you can see from the pros and cons it has some of each of the first two programs. It shares the core lifts and their sets/reps with Ice Cream, and the simplicity of SS. This makes it great as a transition to the Ice Cream Fitness routine. You could even add the assistance lifts one by one as you need them until you are doing JasonDB's routine entirely. On the other hand, it's also scalable to less volume. If you find recovery is an issue, you can drop to sets of 4x5 and then to 3x5, making it SS without power cleans. Rows are a better overall upper back builder, power cleans help to build explosiveness for a stronger deadlift. Really an either or based on goals. And, as with SS, if you want to add the assistance and it won't detract from the core lifts, just add it. No big deal.

Babylover's modified version of Starting Strength
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...21&pagenumber=

Pros
- Alternated squats and front squats make this ideal for doing on back to back days
- Assistance optional and built into the template

Cons
- 3x5 on core lifts is not the best volume for size
- Lack of back squats every workout makes this inferior if you are only doing 3x a week

My take: This is the only program suitable for back to back workouts because of the squats so if that's all your schedule affords this is a great choice. It loses any advantages it has over the other programs if it's done with the same frequency. Basically, back squats 3x a week is better for strength and size than back squats 1.5x a week. The assistance is good, and hits a weak point of SS. But due to my Nike view of assistance, I don't feel like it adds much when those same exercises can be added to Starting Strength or StrongLifts without a problem. With regards to pressing, with increased frequency, recovery and progression may become an issue.

So there's my attempt to simplify and compare those beginner workouts which make up a large portion of the recommendations on the forum. In reality, every single one is very good and no matter which you choose it's probably better than most other workouts. Please add whatever you want, tell me I'm completely wrong, or agree with me. Just get some good info here for beginners to see so they can make an educated decision.

things i diagree with

- just because someone is stronger does not mean they will get bigger faster.
- that back squating 3 times a weak is superior for mass than alternating front and back squat.

[DetMatthews]

McWinning: NP, man.

bravo96: If someone's stronger they'll be able to lift more weight for their higher rep sets, the sets best at building mass. More weight lifted = more muscle damage = bigger muscles after they've recovered assuming enough food and rest. If twins go into the same program with different strength levels, the stronger one will get better results.

On the squats, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But thanks for the input. This is the first time we've been in the same thread and haven't insulted each other. #progress

[tazui1982]

hey man,
just a question tho, why are you so short and weight 84kg? Just wanna make sure that you didn't enter wrong height in bodyspace

[DetMatthews]

hey man,
just a question tho, why are you so short and weight 84kg? Just wanna make sure that you didn't enter wrong height in bodyspace

Nope, that's right. Mom's 5'1.5", dad's 5'3.5", I'm 5'3.5". Nickname in elementary school was stumpy. Short beefy arms, short beefy legs, longer torso. That's why I gravitated towards SS because I could build all the mass in the world and cut down to 5% bodyfat, and still not really look all that awesome because of my proportions and genetics. Rather spend my time trying to get stronger. Find what you're built for and do that.

[bravo96]

McWinning: NP, man.

bravo96: If someone's stronger they'll be able to lift more weight for their higher rep sets, the sets best at building mass. More weight lifted = more muscle damage = bigger muscles after they've recovered assuming enough food and rest. If twins go into the same program with different strength levels, the stronger one will get better results.

On the squats, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But thanks for the input. This is the first time we've been in the same thread and haven't insulted each other. #progress

my bad im just out spoken.

[chrissypoo13]

Nope, that's right. Mom's 5'1.5", dad's 5'3.5", I'm 5'3.5". Nickname in elementary school was stumpy. Short beefy arms, short beefy legs, longer torso. That's why I gravitated towards SS because I could build all the mass in the world and cut down to 5% bodyfat, and still not really look all that awesome because of my proportions and genetics. Rather spend my time trying to get stronger. Find what you're built for and do that.

Haha ive only got you by 2 and a half inches! But sadly i dont have the short beefy arms. I have the tree trunks for legs and toothpick upper body! People growing up used to always ask me if I had babies in my legs! xD

[DetMatthews]

Haha ive only got you by 2 and a half inches! But sadly i dont have the short beefy arms. I have the tree trunks for legs and toothpick upper body! People growing up used to always ask me if I had babies in my legs! xD

Yeah man, I know how you feel lol. I've always had tree trunks, even before I really had any strength in them. People on my wrestling team called me the Neandrathal lol. The stature definitely helped with wrestling. I still got my ass kicked most of the time, but I would've gotten it kicked worse if I had an average build, or, worse yet, if I was tall! :-O

[DeltaCharlie75]

I know you are concentrating on 5x5 , but might be an idea to include a write up of SBR and then you will have all the recommended beginners program's covered. Keep all the info in one thread.

Anyway, informative post.

[DetMatthews]

I know you are concentrating on 5x5 , but might be an idea to include a write up of SBR and then you will have all the recommended beginners program's covered. Keep all the info in one thread.

Anyway, informative post.

Yeah, I can probably do that. The problem is it's so different and that makes for a pretty crappy compare and contrast post with the others.

[ulsak]

Good Post DetMatthews!

Should be a sticky.

[nikolic993]

Good post.

[DetMatthews]

Thanks, man, much appreciated. I revised it with the addition of Greyskull in this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=150877343

[Snohiorider94]

Which one makes you gain more mass? Is it that ss would make you gain more in a longer period of time and 5x5 would make you gain more in the beginning?

[DetMatthews]

Muscles are built because they are broken down and repaired bigger and stronger. Early on, assuming you are a noob, you put on lots of strength and lots of muscle because you are being introduced to heavy ass weight and your body is stressed and forced to do so, regardless of which LP program you are on. When those noob gains have worn off and you are moving the weights efficiently (your brain is activating a much higher number of muscle fibers than it was when you started), the volume of the 5x5 rep scheme comes into play and you can build more muscle at the expense of higher absolute strength. SS doesn't have the volume to be ideal for mass, but it is still not bad with the addition of a chins and some ab work. All of the programs are ideal for different situations and different goals.

SS-Absolute strength is your highest priority, complete novice
Greyskull-Absolute strength bias, good blend of strength and size, advanced novice (more of an all-encompassing program than a routine)
SL5x5-Mass is your highest priority, complete novice
IceCream-Mass is your highest priority, advanced novice
Babylover's-Scheduling makes consecutive days a necessity

[Timmy32]

How is someone meant to know if they are no longer a beginner. Me personally, I like to do a 5 day split, I push my muscles hard and they are generally sore for a few days. I would say I am a beginner as I have not been working out seriously for long. I like to get 10-12 reps out for first 2 sets per exercise but on last 2 sets I raise weight and most of the time only get 6-8 out. I enjoy having a day to focus on each muscle, but all the information on this site seems to say do a 2 day split etc. Would I be much better off doing this?

[DetMatthews]

Science and a lot of anecdotal evidence says yes. For beginners frequency is really important and if you are working a muscle once a week you're not getting as much out of it as you could.

It couldn't hurt to try a full body aggressive LP, but liking what you're doing is important too. If you're getting good enough gains and enjoy what you're doing, keep doing it. but yeah, you could probably gain more from a program like this.

One of the most important things about these programs is how progression is programmed. When you make the reps with good form, you add weight. Doesn't matter if it was really hard or you thought you were going to miss the last rep or whatever. If you don't make the reps, you don't add the weight, even if you're feeling much better the next workout. When a lot of beginners are going by feel when they don't really know what they're feeling, progress is difficult to measure if nothing else.

[tazui1982]

By the way, I'm 11 weeks into SS program and made good progress so far like squat went from 60kg bad form to 120kg acceptable form and slightly below parallel, bench went from 50kg bad form to 90kg and Deadlift improved as well, the only downside is my body is sore, I can't recover fast enough from squatting 3x week. I'm using squatting 2x a week now but I still get lower back and knee pain. Overall, I don't wanna sound like a wuss but SS is great.

[adamxbomb]

By the way, I'm 11 weeks into SS program and made good progress so far like squat went from 60kg bad form to 120kg acceptable form and slightly below parallel, bench went from 50kg bad form to 90kg and Deadlift improved as well, the only downside is my body is sore, I can't recover fast enough from squatting 3x week. I'm using squatting 2x a week now but I still get lower back and knee pain. Overall, I don't wanna sound like a wuss but SS is great.

You probably need a deload to let you body catch up on recovery, After a proper deload you will come back stronger than you were before the deload, give it a shot!

[justroberson]

I would add:

SS- 347 page book + DVD series + website w/ forum where writer answers individual questions
Ice Cream- forum post + video series + Q&A
Babylover- forum post
Stronglifts- website created by a Belgian marketer ripping off SS

[xRedfern]

You probably need a deload to let you body catch up on recovery, After a proper deload you will come back stronger than you were before the deload, give it a shot!

Sorry to sound like an uber noob but only recently started working out myself (5 weeks ago), also following 5x5. What do you mean by deload? im also squatting twice a week and sometimes my legs still feel really sore by the next workout.

[DetMatthews]

Good point. It's awesome to be able to ask Rip his opinion on any changes or situations, crude though his responses may be. Same with JasonDB.

About SL being a rip-off, every one of these programs is based on something else. JasonDB's on SL, SL and babylover's on SS, SS on all the old stuff from Bill Starr et al. Greyskull's is the only real original one, and even that is based on Johnny Pain's work with lots of other programs, including SS.

[dk240t]

If your goal is to get as strong as possible as quick as possible, and you keep making all your reps, keep adding weight, regardless of how you feel. When you get stuck, can't make progress, that's the time to reset the weight down, give your body extra recovery time, and the soreness will come down, too, and it will restart your progress. If you consistently take 2 days to make progress on squats, that might be the time to add in light squats mid-week.

[musikguy72]

Nice overview. I think anyone who has run these programs would agree with these assessments.
I also think the one point that this thread brings out is that no one routine is the 'best'. That's a very common question asked here and it's difficult to explain in one thread how different routines have different pro's and con's. I'm sure many will get directed here to make that very point.

Even Stronglifts which probably has the worst reputation out of all of them has it's fans. Hammerfelt (posts in the powerlifting section often) who is a BEAST started with Stronglifts and has recommended it to many people who want to start out by increasing strength.

Bottom line seems to be that beginners (and some intermediates) have choices. These programs have quick progressions so if you are too advanced you will know right away. Otherwise you can gain a lot of strength and mass (gaining mass is about being in a calorie surplus) with any of these programs. Pick the one who's setup you like the most and go.

[PaulRivers]

Interesting thread...I started doing Starting Strength thinking that I didn't care about mass so much, figured working out with anything popular would do the trick. I'm not looking to turn into a hulk or anything. But then I met another guy who did starting strength, and despite his lifts going way up he doesn't look that more in shape, so then I started thinking that if I'm spending all this time on this stuff, maybe I should do a program that emphasizes mass. Sounds like a 5x5 routine might be the better way to go.

[Ascending2013]

Thank you DetMatthews for this write up. I feel pretty good about the novice program I'm on after reading this.

[gfroniewski]

Subbed

[alex7nder]

This is great.

[scullin]

How is someone meant to know if they are no longer a beginner. Me personally, I like to do a 5 day split, I push my muscles hard and they are generally sore for a few days. I would say I am a beginner as I have not been working out seriously for long. I like to get 10-12 reps out for first 2 sets per exercise but on last 2 sets I raise weight and most of the time only get 6-8 out. I enjoy having a day to focus on each muscle, but all the information on this site seems to say do a 2 day split etc. Would I be much better off doing this?

You are no longer a beginner once you've run the beginner program into the ground and are no longer able to make workout-to-workout progress after 3 stalls / resets. Another way to judge this is to use strength standards for beginner, intermediate, advanced, elite (google). But the first way is better than some arbitrary numbers on a chart because if a program is working then stick with it. People cry about being labeled a beginner but if they want progress they should just stick with it as long as they can milk the program. Any of those programs OP mentioned are fine for a beginner.

You would be best to run a beginner program (if you've never done one before) and go at it hard for as long as you can. Then move to Madcow, TM, or WSFSB and run that into the ground. Then decided goals from there and pick a program that meets your needs.