Hitting macros. Why are people so obsessed with "clean" foods.

[rand18m]

Oh man, these IIFYM threads just never get old do they...

Yes, use IIFYM principles all you want for body composition -- it IS TRUE that a caloric deficit will make you lose weight, a caloric surplus will make you gain weight, and macronutrient ratios and exercise methods will affect the degree to which these loss or gains come in the form of muscle or fat, and the specific type or source of food will barely affect that.

Long-term health is another matter however. Gaining muscle and, especially, losing body fat, will improve health. However, the individual constituents of what we eat also affect our long-term health. Not just micros, but the TYPE of macros -- for example saturated fats vs poly/monounsaturated fats, fructose vs sucrose, etc. What's less clear is which factors affect what, and to what degree. High GI foods used to be considered bad, now not so much. Same with saturated fat, sodium, etc. HDL cholesterol is looking less and less beneficial, as are omega-3 fatty acids. BUT IT HASN'T ALL BEEN WORKED OUT YET. We still don't know everything about nutrition and long-term health, so it's easy to disregard all of these studies and just ignore them completely. It certainly is easier. But in all likelihood, diets more closely resembling those that we evolved on are more likely to be best for long-term health.

If you don't care about your long-term health -- blood pressure, cholesterol levels, etc., then don't be bothered by any of this and do what you'd like to achieve the body composition you're after. But your choices may come to haunt you later in life.

You just insinuated we don't know, which by in large we don't yet imo; then you insinuated you do know via a paleo diet, which is it?

[TheEODtech]

Exactly my point. I'll go as far as to say that I'll drink soda, eat chips, and swallow doughnuts during a cut while ONLY counting my caloric intake and maybe estimating my protein intake. I have successfully been able to cut fat and maintain muscle mass and energy levels consistently. The body doesn't even need 1g or 1.5g of protein per body weight to gain muscle or maintain lean muscle mass. The body is extremely efficient and learns to adapt and work with what it's got. People fail to realize that our bodies have evolved through a course of millions of years. The fact that you are alive today means that you have very awesome genes capable of adapting to almost anything.

I think your forgetting the everybodys body is different factor mainly the genetics factor. While counting calories always 100 % will work it may not get the same results as eating clean. Example 100 carbs a day is your count. 100g of sugar or any refined **** is digested so quick and not used the same way as say carbs from black beans or whole grains would be digested. I personally have to eat well to get the results i want. Ive experienced both sides and the results are very different so maybe its just the difference in peoples bodies. Not trying to bash, just my thought. Maybe consider your lucky where others arent. Ask this same question to someone who is very dedicated to a good workout regimen but didnt eat right but was within macros and never reached his goals but then switched to the right food with the same macros then made progress instead of hitting that plataeu ( <-- spelling?) and hear his opinion.

[WonderPug]

it may not get the same results as eating clean. Example 100 carbs a day is your count. 100g of sugar or any refined **** is digested so quick and not used the same way as say carbs from black beans or whole grains would be digested.

100 grams of CHO from "sugar" enter the blood stream as molecules of:



100 grams of CHO from black beans or whole grains enter the blood stream as molecules of:

[determined4000]

100 grams of CHO from "sugar" enter the blood stream as molecules of:



100 grams of CHO from black beans or whole grains enter the blood stream as molecules of:

how does the H get eliminated
and where do the A and B's come from? Protein and fat?
I thought people only had type A, B, or O blood?
If I have type A, am I eating too much protein?

[WonderPug]

If I have type A, am I eating too much protein?

That depends on how "clean" your shirt is, obviously.

[poloralphloren]

You saying that meeting micro and macro needs from only certain groups of foods are going to have a positive effect on health?

Nope. That's why I was careful to mention the constituents of foods, not particular foods, and certainly not groups of foods!

You just insinuated we don't know, which by in large we don't yet imo; then you insinuated you do know via a paleo diet, which is it?

I did not mean to imply that paleo diets are where it's at. And we don't know much for certain what's healthy, but we have a whole huge history of scientific research that does have some suggestions based on correlative research, regardless of its uncertainties. Again, I meant constituents of foods, not particular foods or groups of foods -- specifically, for all of human history up until the relatively recent agricultural revolution, diets were made up more of hunted animals, fish, fruits, vegetables, nuts, berries, and the like. This means a variety of types of protein sources, a fair balance of both saturated fats and poly/mono-unsaturated fats, plenty of micronutrients and phytonutrients, and not so much on the grains.

Evolution is the primary driving force in biology, so it just seems most likely that our bodies have adapted best to using the nutrients that were most readily available during the great lengths of time that natural selection was at work leading up to the current day. The evidence thus far seems to support this contention. It's an unproven hypothesis at this point though -- maybe Fritos = bananas, **** the potassium, and maybe trans fats are harmless, who knows.

[Leeuf]

There are two kinds of nutrients: Macronutrients and micronutrients.

Clean food gives more micronutrients and less macronutrients per pound of food on average*.

Dirty food gives less micronutrients and more macronutrients per pound of food on average*.

*Specifically fats and carbohydrates.

Therefore, eating clean allows one to consume more micronutrients per pound of food.

Eating clean is probably more expensive.

Ultimately, getting more micronutrients is a good thing so eating clean is better, despite there being a negligible (to throw dirty eaters a bone) difference in muscle gains.

/thread?

[WonderPug]

There are two kinds of nutrients: Macronutrients and micronutrients.

Clean food gives more micronutrients and less macronutrients per pound of food on average*.

Dirty food gives less micronutrients and more macronutrients per pound of food on average*.

*Specifically fats and carbohydrates.

Therefore, eating clean allows one to consume more micronutrients per pound of food.

Eating clean is probably more expensive.

Ultimately, getting more micronutrients is a good thing so eating clean is better, despite there being a negligible (to throw dirty eaters a bone) difference in muscle gains.

/thread?

By your definition, salmon is a "dirty" food and Froot Loops is a "clean" food.

[Leeuf]

By your definition, salmon is a "dirty" food and Froot Loops is a "clean" food.

I did say on average, didn't I?

Besides, clean food is whole, natural food. Salmon is whole, natural food. The thing about whole, natural food is that it comes in the right constituency that allows the proper absorption and metabolism of food, hence giving your body more micronutrients regardless of the actual consistency. That's why by your definition a multivitamin is a good clean food, when the reality is that all it gives you is expensive urine. Froot loops is sugary cardboard that will probably give you hard poop and slightly more expensive urine.

There is a difference between what goes down your gullet and what actually gets absorbed and put to use. I eat clean and I'm never ill. I know ripped men who don't eat clean and are ill all the time. I tanked H1N1 flu in three days without medication. Other people sat with it for a week while popping anti-biotics like M&M's and doing crash course vitamin C diets. You can't just increase your intake of vitamin C and expect benefits. "Clean food" doesn't work like that.

Of course you're going to nit-pick though, because your argument that clean vs. dirty doesn't make a difference is about as dissonant as saying that smoking or not smoking doesn't make a difference. You might just make it to 90 years old while smoking, but you are at greater risk of dying earlier and your quality of life will be lower from a health perspective. Maybe you think being unhealthy is worth eating dirty food, good for you (this cannot be measured objectively), but the fact is that your overall health will be worse off.

[WonderPug]

I did say on average, didn't I?

So now you're saying that the average nutritional content of all the foods you eat make the individual foods you eat "clean" or "dirty". That's even more illogical.

Besides, clean food is whole, natural food.

Now your definition means that you're calling tuna, which contains high levels of mercury and has established health risks a "clean" food, but cottage cheese is a "dirty" food.

That's why by your definition a multivitamin is a good clean food, when the reality is that all it gives you is expensive urine.

That's absurd.

I have repeatedly asserted in this thread and in many others that using the silly metaphors of "clean" and "dirty" food makes no sense for a number of reasons posted previously.

[Leeuf]

You're like my wife. You understand exactly what I'm saying, but you're playing dumb because you want to "win" the argument. Come on, you're smarter than that.

Regardless, just like with my wife I'll be dumb enough to engage...

You're putting the cart before the horse. The nutritional content of food does not define whether it is clean or dirty, but rather on average whole, natural foods do provide more useable micronutrients.

I agree that tuna is bad because of the mercury. I personally don't eat it. The wonderful thing about intelligence and discernment is that you can make this decision per food as opposed to using a universal rule set in stone. I know, I know, you're just engaging in reductio ad absurdem. So here's some right back at you: Let's say food A is high in magnesium. You just have to eat a quarter cup of it and you get your magnesium for the day. However it is also deadly poisonous. Are you going to eat it? Is this a "clean food"? I think we're all intelligent enough to make that decision (assuming we have the correct information).

I reckon cottage cheese is pretty whole and natural so long as it's made from raw milk with no hormones, etc. It's not refined. The whey is separated and it's maybe given some cultures (I'm no expert on cheese).

Most of the micronutrients in a multivitamin aren't absorbed by the body. Never mind the poisonous binding agents and glues they put in...

[germaine07]

Nope. That's why I was careful to mention the constituents of foods, not particular foods, and certainly not groups of foods!

Yeah, but the constituents of the food are pretty much irrelevant irrelevant outside the context of the diet as a whole.

If you have met protein & fat needs, already consumed plenty of micronutrient rich foods, and have 400kcal of ice cream during the day, how will that be any way different to if you got those calories from say apples or nuts?

[Leeuf]

If you have met protein & fat needs, already consumed plenty of micronutrient rich foods, and have 400kcal of ice cream during the day, how will that be any way different to if you got those calories from say apples or nuts?

Everyone likes a treat every now and then. Assuming your body could use all the macronutrient rich foods and you have some calories to go, have some ice-cream. Why not? I will say however that eating such refined carbs without having exercised recently puts strain on your arteries. Having said that, if you don't make a habit of it your body won't even notice.

[cassas00]

The only reason I would avoid certain processed foods are because of high salt, trans fats, artificial additives. Other than that I eat what I want, when I want as long as it fits my macros. I work my diet around myself, not the other way around. I don't eat what I don't enjoy and I don't give up what I do enjoy, that's just silly, enjoy your diet. I see way too many people stick to chicken and brown rice, salmon and sweet potatoes with veg everyday! I even seen this kid have 8 mashed up eggs with a tin of tuna and a banana, he said it was disgusting and had to wash it down with water WHY? I'd prefer sausage, bacon, eggs and toast myself with a glass of milk!

[germaine07]

Everyone likes a treat every now and then. Assuming your body could use all the macronutrient rich foods and you have some calories to go, have some ice-cream. Why not?

That's the point I was making. By the way, do you mean micronutrient not macronutrient? Pretty much all food are macronutrient rich, with perhaps vegetables being the exception.

I will say however that eating such refined carbs without having exercised recently puts strain on your arteries.

Are you talking about sedentary obese people or just if you haven't worked out that day? I find it hard to believe that you could find relevant research supporting the latter.

[Leeuf]

That's the point I was making. By the way, do you mean micronutrient not macronutrient? Pretty much all food are macronutrient rich, with perhaps vegetables being the exception.

Oops yeah, I meant micronutrient rich.

Are you talking about sedentary obese people or just if you haven't worked out that day? I find it hard to believe that you could find relevant research supporting the latter.

The body has trouble metabolizing refined sugars and other things, which causes inflammation of the arteries and in turn causes plaque buildup and heart disease. You have to have an overall unhealthy diet for this though and be eating bad stuff on an almost daily basis. I just felt compelled to mention it in passing.

[BeingPaid]

The body has trouble metabolizing refined sugars and other things, which causes inflammation of the arteries and in turn causes plaque buildup and heart disease. You have to have an overall unhealthy diet for this though and be eating bad stuff on an almost daily basis. I just felt compelled to mention it in passing.

Source?

Inb4 no reply

[WonderPug]

The body has trouble metabolizing refined sugars and other things, which causes inflammation of the arteries and in turn causes plaque buildup and heart disease.

Your assertion is simply incorrect -- see post #153.

As I've stated before, the folks that advocate for the notion of "clean" and "dirty" food often lack even the most basic understanding of nutrition and physiology.

[germaine07]

The body has trouble metabolizing refined sugars and other things, which causes inflammation of the arteries and in turn causes plaque buildup and heart disease. You have to have an overall unhealthy diet for this though and be eating bad stuff on an almost daily basis. I just felt compelled to mention it in passing.

Like I said, I find it hard to believe that you could find relevant research supporting that statement.

[Ka0s]

this thread is dope brb reading

[poloralphloren]

Yeah, but the constituents of the food are pretty much irrelevant irrelevant outside the context of the diet as a whole.

If you have met protein & fat needs, already consumed plenty of micronutrient rich foods, and have 400kcal of ice cream during the day, how will that be any way different to if you got those calories from say apples or nuts?

Agreed completely. I myself do just that -- ice cream is da best! I follow IIFYM principles fairly religiously, and I absolutely love what it's done for me.

I think it's important to realize that we, as in the human race, don't completely know the identity of every single ingredient, compound, etc. that is potentially helpful to our health status. For example, there is the concept of "phytonutrients" -- see here for more info:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/phytonutrients-faq

Phytonutrients aren't essential for keeping you alive, unlike the vitamins and minerals that plant foods contain. But when you eat or drink phytonutrients, they may help prevent disease and keep your body working properly. More than 25,000 phytonutrients are found in plant foods.

These include such entities as lycopene, flavonoids, and resveratrol. The jury is still out as to whether these chemicals are definitely useful to maintaining good health, but a decent amount of research points in that direction. So, might as well keep a variety of fruits and vegetables in our diet, eh?

We all know that good old wholesome chicken, eggs, and nuts are good for us right? But they contain omega-6 fatty acids, which compete for the same beneficial biochemical pathways that omega-3 fatty acids use, thus potentially leading to atherosclerosis, cancer, and other inflammatory diseases. So why not throw some fish into our diet once or twice a week?

It's all about balance and moderation, since we don't know everything yet. I really like Alan Aragon's article, "The Dirt On Clean Eating":
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...-clean-eating/
In this article he posits an "80/20" type rule -- basically he says to try to get at least 80% of your diet from whole, unprocessed natural foods, and the remainder can come from your favorite discretionary foods once your essential nutrient needs are met. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

But no need to label foods as "clean" or "dirty" as long as you understand that it is their components that matter, and how they fit into your overall diet and lifestyle, that are more important. Avoiding the foods you love the most is sure to fail in the long-run. I'd just hate to see people get so cocky about their diet that they forego common sense and abandon wonderful natural foods that have been used for countless generations and add tasty variety to our palettes while also conferring many potential health benefits.

[germaine07]

Agreed completely. I myself do just that -- ice cream is da best! I follow IIFYM principles fairly religiously, and I absolutely love what it's done for me.

I think it's important to realize that we, as in the human race, don't completely know the identity of every single ingredient, compound, etc. that is potentially helpful to our health status. For example, there is the concept of "phytonutrients" -- see here for more info:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/phytonutrients-faq

These include such entities as lycopene, flavonoids, and resveratrol. The jury is still out as to whether these chemicals are definitely useful to maintaining good health, but a decent amount of research points in that direction. So, might as well keep a variety of fruits and vegetables in our diet, eh?

We all know that good old wholesome chicken, eggs, and nuts are good for us right? But they contain omega-6 fatty acids, which compete for the same beneficial biochemical pathways that omega-3 fatty acids use, thus potentially leading to atherosclerosis, cancer, and other inflammatory diseases. So why not throw some fish into our diet once or twice a week?

It's all about balance and moderation, since we don't know everything yet. I really like Alan Aragon's article, "The Dirt On Clean Eating":
http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-n...-clean-eating/
In this article he posits an "80/20" type rule -- basically he says to try to get at least 80% of your diet from whole, unprocessed natural foods, and the remainder can come from your favorite discretionary foods once your essential nutrient needs are met. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

But no need to label foods as "clean" or "dirty" as long as you understand that it is their components that matter, and how they fit into your overall diet and lifestyle, that are more important. Avoiding the foods you love the most is sure to fail in the long-run. I'd just hate to see people get so cocky about their diet that they forego common sense and abandon wonderful natural foods that have been used for countless generations and add tasty variety to our palettes while also conferring many potential health benefits.

I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Except the part about fish....I hate fish I just supp with Omega 3's

[poloralphloren]

I agree with pretty much everything you just said. Except the part about fish....I hate fish I just supp with Omega 3's

Haha, fair enough! I just started doing the fish oil capsule thing myself... I like seafood, but I don't get to it often enough, and there are all those mercury concerns and such, so why not!