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  1. #31
    Registered User graffiti36's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FightThePoW3R View Post
    To be fair, I have never once worried about my micro nutrient intake throughout my bodybuilding career. I make more gains then 80% of my gym simply because I am aware of the fundamental principles in bodybuilding. At least the true biological principles.
    There's a difference between having a good body and being healthy.
    If you think eating poorly and being constantly on a micronutrient deficiency is optimal is good for you than great. Do not preach it to other people though.

    I can agree that you don't have to be restrictive on your diet to be healthy (nor should you be) but saying that you can poorly on a daily basis is just plain stupid.
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  2. #32
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    Originally Posted by graffiti36 View Post
    There's a difference between having a good body and being healthy.
    If you think eating poorly and being constantly on a micronutrient deficiency is optimal is good for you than great. Do not preach it to other people though.

    I can agree that you don't have to be restrictive on your diet to be healthy (nor should you be) but saying that you can poorly on a daily basis is just plain stupid.
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  3. #33
    Registered User Dimaline312000's Avatar
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    I'm being very genuine and honest when I say this but I still consider myself a newbie to all this stuff even if I have been dieting since 07. I think this is a GREAT Theard for me to learn from becasue yes I've been feed a lot of info from many different sources that I don't know if they are telling me the truth or not. Basically I'm really at where I want to be with the exception of possibly gaining a couple more pounds of muscle. I believe that it is a matter of what works best for you but it would be interesting to know what people think are Clean Foods and Dirty Foods. I've found what works for me to lose fat weight and gain a little bit of muscle. What are "Clean Foods" and "Dirty Foods"????
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  4. #34
    Registered User graffiti36's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Dimaline312000 View Post
    What are "Clean Foods" and "Dirty Foods"????
    They are ambiguous terms but you could say clean foods are rich in nutrients while dirty foods are low.
    While starting out you should aim to be a bit more restrictive to these "clean" foods, mostly so you wont fall into bad habits. When you are in control you can indulge in some "dirty" foods but you should aim for a diversified diet in which you can reach your micro and macronutrient goal.
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  5. #35
    Registered User Dimaline312000's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by graffiti36 View Post
    They are ambiguous terms but you could say clean foods are rich in nutrients while dirty foods are low.
    While starting out you should aim to be a bit more restrictive to these "clean" foods, mostly so you wont fall into bad habits. When you are in control you can indulge in some "dirty" foods but you should aim for a diversified diet in which you can reach your micro and macronutrient goal.
    Now that's what I believe too. Eating what they call "good for you foods" meaning eating foods that have plenty of vitamins, minerals and nutrients. I mean if you're going to eat a lot of calories isn't it better to eat the foods with all those in it Vs the so-called bad for you foods like French Fries or Tacos. I'm not saying there is NO nutrition in them but very little compared to Green Beans and Broiled Fish. In keeping with the topic I'm not obsessed with "Clean" Foods but it seems to be more beneficial to eat them than other food choices that are out there.
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  6. #36
    Registered User FightThePoW3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by graffiti36 View Post
    There's a difference between having a good body and being healthy.
    If you think eating poorly and being constantly on a micronutrient deficiency is optimal is good for you than great. Do not preach it to other people though.

    I can agree that you don't have to be restrictive on your diet to be healthy (nor should you be) but saying that you can poorly on a daily basis is just plain stupid.
    I am talking strictly bodybuilding. Even if you don't manage your micro nutrients, you are still going to be healthier then the average person who doesn't manipulate their diet. Unless you are suffering from existing medical conditions, you'll live, trust me...Many people assume you have to eat clean to see results whether it be gaining mass or cutting fat. This just isn't true.
    Last edited by FightThePoW3R; 12-31-2012 at 09:36 PM.
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  7. #37
    Registered User FightThePoW3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysTryin View Post
    It has nothing to do with the meal quantity as a burger and fries are nothing, and it's not "in my head" so I'm sorry to say that you're wrong

    Also 5"7 and 170 isn't that impressive so I'm unsure why you're walking around like king****
    I'm sorry, but where is your avi? And who says you have to look like Ronnie Coleman in order to preach the truth about bodybuilding? I am proud of my physique mind you, and my avi is literally over a year old. You can only imagine what I look like currently, but I'll update my photos when I feel like it.
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  8. #38
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    Originally Posted by FightThePoW3R View Post
    I'm sorry, but where is your avi? And who says you have to look like Ronnie Coleman in order to preach the truth about bodybuilding? I am proud of my physique mind you, and my avi is literally over a year old. You can only imagine what I look like currently, but I'll update my photos when I feel like it.
    You made the comment that your "bodybuilding career" has made 80% better gains than others in the gym. Just cause you might disregard nutrition and health less than others, don't go push your statements on others. You can eat how you want, as can they

    Speaking of your "career", have you competed? I looked at your stats (updated) not your avi (out of date)

    I don't need an avi.
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  9. #39
    Registered User FightThePoW3R's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysTryin View Post
    You made the comment that your "bodybuilding career" has made 80% better gains than others in the gym. Just cause you might disregard nutrition and health less than others, don't go push your statements on others. You can eat how you want, as can they

    Speaking of your "career", have you competed? I looked at your stats (updated) not your avi (out of date)

    I don't need an avi.
    Bodybuilding "career" doesn't necessarily mean you have competed or are considered a professional. It is simply the time one has been bodybuilding. Bear with me here. And again, I am talking strictly "Body Building". The act of building your body. Is it really that hard to comprehend? You don't have to be healthy to be a body builder. The act of training your muscles and manipulating your caloric intake alone puts you ahead of the average joe in terms of health.
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  10. #40
    Registered User mcates1990's Avatar
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    I have always wondered the same thing, I have always been told to just eat as much as I can, as often as I can... However this has always made cutting the belly fat really difficult for me..
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by mcates1990 View Post
    I have always wondered the same thing, I have always been told to just eat as much as I can, as often as I can... However this has always made cutting the belly fat really difficult for me..
    1. That is just plain stupid.
    You aren't even hitting macros if you just literally eat whatever you want whenever as much as you can. Duh.

    2. If you truly believe the body will not function somewhat better with higher quality nutrition then you are another lost soul. Food is like fuel you put in a race car. You can use regular, premium or rocket fuel. I think the car with the regular will probably finish last.
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by mcates1990 View Post
    I have always wondered the same thing, I have always been told to just eat as much as I can, as often as I can... However this has always made cutting the belly fat really difficult for me..
    That can work because only a surplus or a deficit is needed for muscle gain/fat loss, but it's not efficient and can make losing fat a pain in the ass if you don't count your calories and do a slow and controlled diet.
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  13. #43
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    There's more to nutrition than hitting the holy trinity of fat, protein, carbs. I don't think there is anything *wrong* with eating what are generally seen as unhealthy foods to hit your macros, but I'd rather get the vitamins, minerals and antioxidants found in nutritious unprocessed food than the sodium and god knows what else used in junk food.
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  14. #44
    Registered User graffiti36's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FightThePoW3R View Post
    I am talking strictly bodybuilding. Even if you don't manage your micro nutrients, you are still going to be healthier then the average person who doesn't manipulate their diet. Unless you are suffering from existing medical conditions, you'll live, trust me...Many people assume you have to eat clean to see results whether it be gaining mass or cutting fat. This just isn't true.
    No, i do not trust you.
    You have no credibility and you are literally talking out of your ass.

    If you feel like eating poorly, its up to you. Please do not try to convince people that its the same as eating a micronutrient rich diet.


    Plus, your argument is fallacious. If you are talking about bodybuilders as stated "I am talking strictly bodybuilding." then what is the point of comparing it to people who dont bodybuild? While you do not need to eat "clean" to get results, a long term diet of constant poor choices is and will affect your overall health. Again, if you do not care about this, then please do continue.

    Also, I'm interested in knowing your opinion about the multivitamin pill topic we previously talked about. I have shown you some studies that support my opinion , but I have yet to see yours.
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  15. #45
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  16. #46
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    Op states that he eats "dirty foods" while on a cut. He is now being told he is micro nutrient deficient. I see no evidence in his posts that he is micro nutrient deficient just because he includes chips and a soft drink.

    Since when is a hamburger, even a McDonald's hamburger dirty and why? Since when is it "devoid of nutrients"? The fact is it's just the opposite, it's nutrient and calorically dense. The problem isn't the food, for most it's the portion size. The idea that a hamburger is somehow bad is just ridiculous and exhibits nothing but a stereotypical view of food.

    Why is it that all "dirty foods" are void of nutrients? Does that include iceburg lettuce and celery? Are they now "dirty foods"?

    Does anyone here really know the micronutrient component of their diet in detail? Hell no, we eat foods that contain micro nutrients in a varied diet and assume, correctly we hope, that we are getting enough. In reality the micro nutrient needs of a human are not all that large and many are stored in ample quantity by the body.

    Op I understand the point you are making I think. If I have this correct, it's a shame that there is a deep belief that you have to go to all this ritualistic detail in ones diet to make gains or improve their body composition or even health, and that mindset keeps many from going forward because not many people are obsessive enough to maintain such a lifestyle. On that point we can certainly agree.

    I don't think you are saying that you try to exist on potato chips and soda as that would be silly in itself. But I do think you are saying that energy balance coupled with macro nutrient and micro nutrient sufficiency is what matters, not the names of ones food. Therefore people should eat what they want, on that we can all agree. That only leaves us arguing what is sufficiency, well with macro's it seems relatively agreed upon within a set of parameters, that leaves us arguing micros and quite frankly that is a silly argument because nobody here knows for absolute certain how much they ingest, absorb etc etc!

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    It seems like in this section more times than not I see people that are obsessed with "non clean" foods, and how they can shove them into their macros..... oh and don't forget to take a pictures of all the sugary cereal you mix with protien powder and call food like a 5 year old would....lulz

    Bottom line is, who cares what other people do. The reason IIFIYM got so popular so quick is that we were stuck in this bodybuilding diet dogma for so long that when something else came along that allowed you to eat a little more liberally everyone jumped on the wagon and it became a competition to see how much processed food one could eat.

    A little moderation goes a long ways.
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  18. #48
    Registered User rand18m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by coloBB View Post
    It seems like in this section more times than not I see people that are obsessed with "non clean" foods, and how they can shove them into their macros..... oh and don't forget to take a pictures of all the sugary cereal you mix with protien powder and call food like a 5 year old would....lulz

    Bottom line is, who cares what other people do. The reason IIFIYM got so popular so quick is that we were stuck in this bodybuilding diet dogma for so long that when something else came along that allowed you to eat a little more liberally everyone jumped on the wagon and it became a competition to see how much processed food one could eat.

    A little moderation goes a long ways.
    Exactly, and that includes everything in life, the unfortunate part is that few humans are good at moderation, apparently it's too boring. And moderation and bodybuilding apparently are polar opposites!!
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    Regard macros + disregard micros < regard macros + regard micros.

    Food names, the modifiers clean or dirty, or anecdotal gym experiences don't change this at all.
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    I've never noticed a difference, body composition wise, from eating "clean" versus the alternative. The one thing I notice though is the more "junk" I eat, the less I enjoy the taste of fruits, vegetables, lean meats, etc, so I try to keep it in moderation lest I start craving ONLY junk food, which I don't find very filling (how I became obese in the first place). I find the same thing with drinks. I like diet soda and diet lemonade, but the more I drink them, the less I enjoy drinking plain old water.
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  21. #51
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    Originally Posted by RRJ View Post
    I've never noticed a difference, body composition wise, from eating "clean" versus the alternative. The one thing I notice though is the more "junk" I eat, the less I enjoy the taste of fruits, vegetables, lean meats, etc, so I try to keep it in moderation lest I start craving ONLY junk food, which I don't find very filling (how I became obese in the first place). I find the same thing with drinks. I like diet soda and diet lemonade, but the more I drink them, the less I enjoy drinking plain old water.
    I agree with all of this^^^. Everything you described I have experienced myself. (Except for having been obese)

    People underestimate the power of the bodies adaptability and how fast it does so, that adaptability can either be positive or pathological.
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    What matters is the actual nutriton consumed daily, not the labeling of the foods as "clean" or "dirty".

    That means the ingredients, the specific doses consumed and the context of all meals consumed per day is what determines the outcome of your diet, regardless of what you call the foods.
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    What matters is the actual nutriton consumed daily, not the labeling of the foods as "clean" or "dirty".

    That means the ingredients, the specific doses consumed and the context of all meals consumed per day is what determines the outcome of your diet, regardless of what you call the foods.
    not exactly what we are discussing here.
    Op says that a diet that is in a micronutrient deficient is equal to a diet where all needs are met.

    From his bodybuilding experience (him being 22 yo) it doesnt really matter if you are in a prolonged deficiency or not, because since he is making progress then he must healthy.
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  24. #54
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    If you're speaking strictly of body composition, then yes you're right. But if you're speaking of body composition coupled with long term health you're wrong. I frequently eat Reese's bars, Ice-cream, and pop-tarts, I cook my own burritos, taquitos, quesadillas, pizzas, burgers....things you could classify as "dirty", but I use the same ingredients classified as "clean" to make them. To be healthy the majority of your diet should be aimed at not only just hitting macros, but micros and fiber as well. If I eat a Reese's bar....that's a small part of my day, by the end of the day I've hit almost 8 veggie servings, 3 fruit servings, 30-40g of fiber and macros are met and I take a multi on top it.....I do think I hit way over on my micros but that shouldn't hurt me, it just won't help me beyond a certain point.

    I do think that the amount of micros needed is vastly overestimated by most people, but just the same......it's pretty well known that enjoying "dirty" foods is fine, AS LONG AS Macros/Micros/and FIBER!!! is met, total net macro and micro nutrient intake is what you should focus on; basically your overall nutrition. Otherwise yes you could be sculpted like a god, but be on the verge of a heart attack and be more prone to injuries and sicknesses from being micro nutrient deficient.
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  25. #55
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    Originally Posted by graffiti36 View Post
    not exactly what we are discussing here.
    Op says that a diet that is in a micronutrient deficient is equal to a diet where all needs are met.
    The point is that the OP could eat "clean" foods and be deficient in micronutrients, he could eat "dirty" foods while meeting micronutrient sufficiency, he could eat "clean" foods and meet micronutrient sufficiency and he could eat "dirty" foods and be micronutrient deficient, he could eat a combination of "clean" and "dirty" foods while meeting micronutrient sufficiency and he could eat a combination of "clean" and dirty" foods while being deficient in micronutrients.

    The arbitrary labeling of foods as "clean" or "dirty" does not make a diet sufficient or insufficient.
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  26. #56
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    Originally Posted by FightThePoW3R View Post
    Assuming you get the same amount of proteins/fats/carbohydrates in a day, what is the difference between eating processed "dirty" foods and "clean" foods. Nutrients? What difference does that make? Will I feel more energy throughout the day? Will I grow taller? Will my hair look healthier? Is there any scientific evidence backing up any claims you might argue before you even consider proposing them?
    If you eat two 118g bananas and one 145g avocado, you'll be getting almost the calorie/macro-equivalent of a 100g maltesers sack.

    However, having the bananas & avocados will give you a decent amount of fiber, vitamin C & other nutrients, while the maltesers gives you nothing (maybe some chemicals). Plus the naturals weigh 381g which is more satisfying than 100g.

    Fiber & Vitamin C are very good for your health, especially if they're coming from natural sources, unlike the chemicals that the maltesers sack provides. If I had to chose between the 2 options, I'll go for the naturals without a single doubt.

    People are giving too much importance to their bodies and cut muscles, without looking much at the health aspect of it. I am not aware of any scientific evidence that compares nutrient-dense natural foods to nutrient-free processed food because the results will be obvious and the researchers won't waste their time & money trying to back up such non-sense claims.


    PS.

    I don't eat fruits & vegetables, because I don't enjoy eating them, however I do think that your comparison is not smart at all, and if that IIFYM goes that extreme, I'm sorry but it won't be a good lifestyle.

    There's nothing wrong with enjoying something you like with moderation, maybe a pizza or a dessert, that fits your macros, but comparing nutrient-dense natural foods to a nutrient-free processed food is outside the equation.
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    Originally Posted by WonderPug View Post
    The point is that the OP could eat "clean" foods and be deficient in micronutrients, he could eat "dirty" foods while meeting micronutrient sufficiency, he could eat "clean" foods and meet micronutrient sufficiency and he could eat "dirty" foods and be micronutrient deficient, he could eat a combination of "clean" and "dirty" foods while meeting micronutrient sufficiency and he could eat a combination of "clean" and dirty" foods while being deficient in micronutrients.

    The arbitrary labeling of foods as "clean" or "dirty" does not make a diet sufficient or insufficient.
    Completely agree!

    Many people forget about ingredients and actual (personal) nutrient requirements and revert to a simple "clean or dirty" philosophy...
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  28. #58
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    Originally Posted by AlwaysTryin View Post
    I feel like ****, lethargic and weak as **** after McDonalds etc compared to "clean" nutritious foods as you will
    Me too, I feel a big difference when I eat quality foods. My energy levels, sleep, performance in the gym and recovery are all better when I eat better quality foods and I don't need a study to tell me that.

    All of the above can affect body composition as well.
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  29. #59
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    Originally Posted by naturalguy View Post
    Me too, I feel a big difference when I eat quality foods. My energy levels, sleep, performance in the gym and recovery are all better when I eat better quality foods and I don't need a study to tell me that. All of the above can affect body composition as well.
    I totally agree and that's why I avoid lots of processed foods like whey protein shakes, protein bars, weight gainers and similar foods.
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    I eat mostly "clean foods" do to the fact I like to eat volume, so for satiety purposes, I eat mostly "clean foods" because I can eat more of it.. Just to use an example, a chocolate muffin is around 600 cals, for that same 600 cals I can eat 200g of chicken and a sweet potato with natural peanut on it and a salad.. But I don't avoid "dirty foods" though, I just eat more "clean foods"
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