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  1. #31
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    Thank you HappyLand

    Abstract

    In recent years there has been considerable interest in the benefits of high-protein diets. This study determined current usual intake of protein in America. Using the most recent data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, 2003–2004, usual protein intake for Americans aged 2+ years was estimated. Usual protein intake was calculated on a grams per day, grams per kilogram ideal body weight, and a percentage of calories basis. Protein intake averaged 56 ± 14 g/d in young children, increased to a high of ≈91 ± 22 g/d in adults aged 19–30 y, and decreased to ≈66 ± 17 g/d in the elderly. The percentage of the male population who consumed less than the estimated average requirement was very low. Our estimates indicated that 7.7% of adolescent females and 7.2–8.6% of older adult women reported consuming protein levels below their estimated average requirement. The median intake of protein on a percentage of calories basis ranged from 13.4% in children aged 4–8 y to 16.0% in men aged 51–70 y. Even the 95th percentile of protein intake did not approach the highest acceptable macronutrient distribution range of 35% for an age/sex group. The highest 95th percentile of protein intake was 20.8% of calories in men aged 51–70 y. Given the demonstrated benefits of higher protein intake on weight management, sarcopenia, and other physiologic functions, efforts should be undertaken to ensure that Americans consume the recommended amount of protein (17–21% of calories as expected from MyPyramid food patterns).

    Found this study that demonstrates Americans are in fact not consuming the recommended amount of protein. It is possible in my experience that I was blaming the protein for the weight gain when in fact it may as well been the extra calories I was consuming. My apologies and best to you and your training.

    **HappyPlace
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  2. #32
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    A conflicting view point

    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    Abstract

    In recent years there has been considerable interest in the benefits of high-protein diets. This study determined current usual intake of protein in America. Using the most recent data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, 2003–2004, usual protein intake for Americans aged 2+ years was estimated. Usual protein intake was calculated on a grams per day, grams per kilogram ideal body weight, and a percentage of calories basis. Protein intake averaged 56 ± 14 g/d in young children, increased to a high of ≈91 ± 22 g/d in adults aged 19–30 y, and decreased to ≈66 ± 17 g/d in the elderly. The percentage of the male population who consumed less than the estimated average requirement was very low. Our estimates indicated that 7.7% of adolescent females and 7.2–8.6% of older adult women reported consuming protein levels below their estimated average requirement. The median intake of protein on a percentage of calories basis ranged from 13.4% in children aged 4–8 y to 16.0% in men aged 51–70 y. Even the 95th percentile of protein intake did not approach the highest acceptable macronutrient distribution range of 35% for an age/sex group. The highest 95th percentile of protein intake was 20.8% of calories in men aged 51–70 y. Given the demonstrated benefits of higher protein intake on weight management, sarcopenia, and other physiologic functions, efforts should be undertaken to ensure that Americans consume the recommended amount of protein (17–21% of calories as expected from MyPyramid food patterns).

    Found this study that demonstrates Americans are in fact not consuming the recommended amount of protein. It is possible in my experience that I was blaming the protein for the weight gain when in fact it may as well been the extra calories I was consuming. My apologies and best to you and your training.

    **HappyPlace
    This article was published in 2012 in the HuffingtonPost:


    From diet books to news headlines, protein is in, while carbohydrates and fats are out. Without this very important nutrient, we wouldn't be able to build, maintain and repair the body's tissues. Of the 20 amino acids that are used to make protein, nine cannot be produced by the body alone. These nine essential amino acids can only be obtained from the foods we eat. But are we eating too much?
    The National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey found that the average American male consumes 102 grams of protein per day, while the average female eats about 70 grams. That's almost twice the daily recommended intake established by the Food and Nutrition Board. For most healthy individuals, it's recommended that 10-15 percent of our daily calories come from protein (about 56 grams for men and 46 for women). This may sound like a lot, but it's easier to meet those needs than you think. Consider this: One cup of milk (8 grams), a 3-ounce piece of meat (21 grams), 1 cup of dry beans (16 grams) and an 8-ounce container of yogurt (11 grams) provide 56 grams of protein, according to the CDC. That didn't take much.
    Why can too much protein be a problem? For starters, meat is a major source of protein in the American diet, and animal foods high in protein are often high in saturated fat. According to the American Heart Association (AHA), foods high in saturated fat can increase risk of stroke, coronary heart disease, diabetes and some types of cancer. Additionally, people who have a problem processing excess protein may be at risk for kidney and liver disorders and osteoperosis. The AHA does not recommend high-protein diets for weight loss, stating that high-protein diets can "restrict healthful foods that provide essential nutrients and don't provide the variety of foods needed to adequately meet nutritional needs." Additionally, if you consume more calories than you burn, any extra calories will contribute to weight gain.
    To calculate individual protein needs, it's important to factor in body weight, physical activity level and health status. The average person who leads a relatively sedentary lifestyle needs about 0.36 grams of protein per pound of body weight. That means if you are healthy, weigh 140 pounds, and occasionally ride your bike to work, you only need about 50 grams of protein per day.
    And exercise doesn't necessarily increase protein needs. According to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (AND), if you are working out for an hour a few times a week, you probably don't need to take in extra protein. For endurance and strength-trained athletes, AND recommends consuming 0.5 to 0.8 grams of protein per pound of body weight daily, which can generally be obtained through the diet without the use of supplements.
    So what are the best protein sources? While animal proteins usually contain all of the essential amino acids forming complete proteins, eating a varied, plant-based diet can also meet all of your protein needs. One cup of dry beans, for example, contains about 16 grams of protein per serving, while a cup of brown rice contains 5 grams. Together these foods form a complete protein and also provide a healthy dose of fiber -- which helps lower cholesterol, promotes regular bowel movements, regulates our blood sugar and helps us feel full. Plant-based proteins also don't have any saturated fat, and are usually lower in calories.
    The take-home message: Before gulping down that protein shake after a workout, or subbing a large steak for carbs and fats at lunch and dinner, calculate your actual needs to make sure the extra protein is really necessary. It's probably isn't.

    Choose your poison. If any of you veggies out there have any helpful tips, hit me up!
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  3. #33
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    OP-

    Do you want me to teach you how to multi-quote?

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  4. #34
    Cutting. Hangry. happyplace's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    I also want to add that I do not think protein makes you fat. I never once quoted that.
    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    I noticed back in high school when I consumed a lot of protein I actually gained a lot of weight. I suppose I was not utilizing the protein correctly and it was converting to fat.
    I don't engage with trolls. Especially ones who come to preach the virtues of a low protein diet on a bodybuilding forum. Take a look around here at the bb.com members who consume ungodly levels of animal protein. They oftentimes look awesome and are an example of great health.

    You should also really buck up your ideas if you want to become a RD. I would be terrified to ever come across a professional who is too lazy to write their own meal plan or research sources of vegetarian protein. Additionally, you have quoted articles giving examples of how to get what you consider to be an adequate amount of protein, so I'm not sure why you are even asking.
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=155881453
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  5. #35
    Registered User catskills's Avatar
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    I used to be a vegetarian, but when I took up body building initially, the diet I was given by my PT had me eating meat 4x a day. I slowly cut the meat out and replaced it with other things because I couldn't stand eating it. I am not a vegetarian bc of animal rights, I just don't like the taste of meat. I also can't drink protein shakes, it is weird, I tried a number of different brands and couldn't get them down.

    What I ended up replacing the meat with included: greek yogurt, cottage cheese, regular cheese, milk, tofu and I also use a lot of egg whites. You can buy liquid egg whites now that can be used when making things from scratch. Although I think it is better just to use the whole egg because you need the fat. I still eat a little bit of fish 50 to 75g a day, but some days I go without that and still meet my protein requirements. You can also get some protein from whole grains, legumes and veggies.

    Oh, and thankyou for posting your studies OP, because I prefer being a vegetarian and I didn't know what the recommended amounts actually were.
    Last edited by catskills; 12-29-2012 at 06:56 AM.
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  6. #36
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by happyplace View Post
    I don't engage with trolls. Especially ones who come to preach the virtues of a low protein diet on a bodybuilding forum. Take a look around here at the bb.com members who consume ungodly levels of animal protein. They oftentimes look awesome and are an example of great health.

    You should also really buck up your ideas if you want to become a RD. I would be terrified to ever come across a professional who is too lazy to write their own meal plan or research sources of vegetarian protein. Additionally, you have quoted articles giving examples of how to get what you consider to be an adequate amount of protein, so I'm not sure why you are even asking.
    Okay. I don't find name calling an effective way to communicate. Thank you for expressing your ideas.
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  7. #37
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    Smile

    Originally Posted by catskills View Post
    I used to be a vegetarian, but when I took up body building initially, the diet I was given by my PT had me eating meat 4x a day. I slowly cut the meat out and replaced it with other things because I couldn't stand eating it. I am not a vegetarian bc of animal rights, I just don't like the taste of meat. I also can't drink protein shakes, it is weird, I tried a number of different brands and couldn't get them down.

    What I ended up replacing the meat with included: greek yogurt, cottage cheese, regular cheese, milk, tofu and I also use a lot of egg whites. You can buy liquid egg whites now that can be used when making things from scratch. Although I think it is better just to use the whole egg because you need the fat. I still eat a little bit of fish 50 to 75g a day, but some days I go without that and still meet my protein requirements. You can also get some protein from whole grains, legumes and veggies.

    Oh, and thankyou for posting your studies OP, because I prefer being a vegetarian and I didn't know what the recommended amounts actually were.
    My pleasure
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  8. #38
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by UnaChispita View Post
    OP-

    Do you want me to teach you how to multi-quote?

    Yes lol. I forgot my laptop at my house, so I have posting via iPhone. It's confusing @__@

    Hehe.
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  9. #39
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    Smile

    Originally Posted by happyplace View Post
    I don't engage with trolls. Especially ones who come to preach the virtues of a low protein diet on a bodybuilding forum. Take a look around here at the bb.com members who consume ungodly levels of animal protein. They oftentimes look awesome and are an example of great health.

    You should also really buck up your ideas if you want to become a RD. I would be terrified to ever come across a professional who is too lazy to write their own meal plan or research sources of vegetarian protein. Additionally, you have quoted articles giving examples of how to get what you consider to be an adequate amount of protein, so I'm not sure why you are even asking.

    Also, if you read the original post I was not asking for my protein requirements. I was specifically asking for meal plan advice. Meal plan advice does not equal what my protein requirements are. I then stated how I felt when I consumed protein in excess I waa gaining weight. Either it was that or I was consuming an excess amount other macronutriets. As you pointed it. I have no idea as this was 5 years ago.

    I am not afraid to consume plant protein. I am afraid to consume animal protein. Not really my cup of tea. I do not need an exact meal plan to follow, I just wanted to get an idea from veggies. I do not know why I need to state this fact over and over again. As for you insulting me, it's not a very attractive quality. Look deep within yourself and release the negative energy you hold. Maybe not via Internet. It is okay for people to agree to disagree.

    But I found a study that agrees with your ideology. Although, just like in the science world a fact really isn't a fact. It must be tested over and over again. They may one day find that study to be flawed as well. Don't seek out the answers you just want to hear to support your claim. I can do that all day long...

    Thank you for your time, and input.
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  10. #40
    Registered User BernadetMatassa's Avatar
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    Creatine is a natural substance said to build muscle mass and boost muscle strength. Available in meat and fish, creatine is also produced naturally in the human body and found primarily in skeletal muscle.

    I think it's pretty hard to gain quality muscle mass without eating meat ,however you can supplement it! If you take BCAA and arginine you should be able to produce enough muscle!
    Good luck!
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by BernadetMatassa View Post
    Creatine is a natural substance said to build muscle mass and boost muscle strength. Available in meat and fish, creatine is also produced naturally in the human body and found primarily in skeletal muscle.

    I think it's pretty hard to gain quality muscle mass without eating meat ,however you can supplement it! If you take BCAA and arginine you should be able to produce enough muscle!
    Good luck!

    Thank you so much! A friend if mine also referred me to BCAA. I will definitely look into that
    I found a vegan body building site, I know people on this site may find it a joke, but they have some great pros on there!
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  12. #42
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    Anytime. You are very driven and I am sure you'll do awesome. Inbox me if you have more questions.
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  13. #43
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    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    Also, if you read the original post I was not asking for my protein requirements. I was specifically asking for meal plan advice. Meal plan advice does not equal what my protein requirements are. I then stated how I felt when I consumed protein in excess I waa gaining weight. Either it was that or I was consuming an excess amount other macronutriets. As you pointed it. I have no idea as this was 5 years ago.

    I am not afraid to consume plant protein. I am afraid to consume animal protein. Not really my cup of tea. I do not need an exact meal plan to follow, I just wanted to get an idea from veggies. I do not know why I need to state this fact over and over again. As for you insulting me, it's not a very attractive quality. Look deep within yourself and release the negative energy you hold. Maybe not via Internet. It is okay for people to agree to disagree.

    But I found a study that agrees with your ideology. Although, just like in the science world a fact really isn't a fact. It must be tested over and over again. They may one day find that study to be flawed as well. Don't seek out the answers you just want to hear to support your claim. I can do that all day long...

    Thank you for your time, and input.
    Were you weight training at the time you gained weight when eating higher protein? If you are looking to become a competitive fitness model, you will need to weight train heavy in order to build quality muscle mass, so you're nutritional needs, especially in terms of required protein amounts, will not be the same as a sedentary person. Your meal plan needs to have the proper macronutrients your daily intake. This should be at least 1gram of protein per lb. of body weight. As a vegetarian, there is no doubt you will need to do some supplementation in order to meet that.
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  14. #44
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    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    Thank you so much! A friend if mine also referred me to BCAA. I will definitely look into that
    I found a vegan body building site, I know people on this site may find it a joke, but they have some great pros on there!
    I always valued the exercise where you matched point a. and b. in primary school. I've gone ahead and done that here:


    Staunch advocate of a low protein intake --- Considering supplementation to increase her BCAA intake

    LivConstantine --- Dumbass
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  15. #45
    Registered User LivConstantine's Avatar
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    Thumbs down

    Originally Posted by MrB1g View Post
    I always valued the exercise where you matched point a. and b. in primary school. I've gone ahead and done that here:


    Staunch advocate of a low protein intake --- Considering supplementation to increase her BCAA intake

    LivConstantine --- Dumbass
    Why are you hating so hard? I'm not sure I understand the mentality on this site. I never was an advocate for low protein intake. It seems as if you misinterpreted what I was expressing above. I am an advocate for a balanced lifestyle and that is why I included those primary studies above. 0.8 kg of protein/ kg of body weight is currently what they recommend for those that go to the gym about once a day (I would currently fall into this category, and maybe when I get serious I would have to up it to repair the muscles. This is why I am currently researching other ways to up my protein intake when the time is necessary). There was anoter study in this forum I posted that suggest a high protein intake may have damaging effects. I have included many resources on here to show all sides of the spectrum, so I don't know why you feel the need to name call and disrespect me. Very rude.

    And why are you even on a female bodybuilding forum? Weird.
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  16. #46
    Registered User HipAlbatross's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post

    And why are you even on a female bodybuilding forum? Weird.
    It's not weird, there's a few guys that post in this section. They have helpful advice as well.

    And when you post in a body building forum about protein making people fat, and ignoring what everyone else says, you will attract people to your thread.
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  17. #47
    Registered User orca23554's Avatar
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    Since the topic is that of veggies and protein, this is how I go about getting mine (per day)-

    Peanuts/Peanut Butter - 10g
    Whole eggs - 12g
    Milk - 30g
    Yoghurt - 12g
    Flat Bread (All Wheat) - 20g
    From other stuff I eat through the day - 25g
    Balance 25g I make up from a Whey supp

    Certain things I should point out -

    Born veggie & not by choice
    I'd hardly consume 40g of protein per day before I started working out an year ago. Where I come from its a carb rich diet
    Believe in doing things old school and staying away from supps as much as possible. Taken me serious effort to ramp up my diet, do not intend to stop anytime soon
    I hit 0.8g/lb of BW not because some study says so but that's what my current lifestyle allows me to consume without turning my stomach into a fart engine
    I like to see progress but am not obsessed about it
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  18. #48
    Registered User MrB1g's Avatar
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    I responded in bold.

    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    High protein diets on the other hand advocate excessive levels of protein intake on the order of 200 to 400 g/d, which can equate to levels of approximately 5 g x kg(-1) x d(-1), which may exceed the liver's capacity to convert excess nitrogen to urea. Dangers of excessive protein, defined as when protein constitutes > 35% of total energy intake, include hyperaminoacidemia, hyperammonemia, hyperinsulinemia nausea, diarrhea, and even death (the "rabbit starvation syndrome").

    Fascinating. Which 'can' equate and 'may' exceed. That's a strong point. Excessive protein intake is now defined as >35% of total caloric intake? So when I'm dieting on 2,000 calories a day, 175g of protein is just as 'dangerous' as the 350g of protein when I'm gaining weight. How interesting.

    This is well below the theoretical maximum safe intake range for an 80 kg person (285 to 365 g/d).

    Correct me if I'm wrong - but the conclusion of this study seems to be the theoretical maximum safe intake is 4.5g/kg. Oh wait...That's exactly what it says.
    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    The highest 95th percentile of protein intake was 20.8% of calories in men aged 51–70 y. Given the demonstrated benefits of higher protein intake on weight management, sarcopenia, and other physiologic functions, efforts should be undertaken to ensure that Americans consume the recommended amount of protein (17–21% of calories as expected from MyPyramid food patterns).

    What the **** is the point of this study? It's assessing how much protein is being eaten compared to an invalidated guideline. It has no conclusion about safety or efficacy whatsoever.
    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    This article was published in 2012 in the HuffingtonPost:

    Thank god you almost have a degree - you're now sourcing directly from HuffingtonPost!

    The average person who leads a relatively sedentary lifestyle needs about 0.36 grams of protein per pound of body weight.

    For endurance and strength-trained athletes, AND recommends consuming 0.5 to 0.8 grams of protein per pound of body weight daily, which can generally be obtained through the diet without the use of supplements.

    Right, so they conclude that a SEDENTARY individual needs ~0.8g/kg and an ACTIVE individual SHOULD BE consuming up to ~1.6g/kg.
    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    Why are you hating so hard? I'm not sure I understand the mentality on this site. I never was an advocate for low protein intake. It seems as if you misinterpreted what I was expressing above. I am an advocate for a balanced lifestyle and that is why I included those primary studies above. 0.8 kg of protein/ kg of body weight is currently what they recommend for those that go to the gym about once a day (I would currently fall into this category, and maybe when I get serious I would have to up it to repair the muscles. This is why I am currently researching other ways to up my protein intake when the time is necessary). There was anoter study in this forum I posted that suggest a high protein intake may have damaging effects. I have included many resources on here to show all sides of the spectrum, so I don't know why you feel the need to name call and disrespect me. Very rude.

    And why are you even on a female bodybuilding forum? Weird.
    Can you ****ing read? I suggest you go back to primary school and brush up on your units of measurement. The prior 'source' you posted recommended 0.8g/lb. NOT 0.8g/kg for an active individual.

    I'm hating because you're stupid - and I really dislike stupidity.

    You haven't posted a single source which has in any way justified or supported a low protein intake.
    Last edited by MrB1g; 12-30-2012 at 06:57 PM.
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  19. #49
    I'll Mod Til I'm Dead ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by LivConstantine View Post
    What is so unbelievable?
    What's 'unbelievable' is the crap that you're being taught in an institution of supposedly higher learning, and then bringing it here as if it's the 'last word' in nutrition science.



    But there's no need to feel like The Lone Ranger because of that; the vast majority of college 'educated' youngsters who start posting their nutrition 'advices' on this site are as misled/misinformed as you are. You're getting 'hate' here because you're not providing a solution, but rather, you're part of the problem of spreading myth and misinformation.





    Here's a hint; forget the old, outdated, incorrect junk you're being taught, and instead, start reading here:

    http://alanaragon.com/


    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/


    http://www.maxcondition.com/news.php


    http://leangains.com









    ETA:

    *facepalm.jpeg* @ citing "The Huffington Post." Again, unbelievable.
    No brain, no gain.

    You can't out-train bad nutrition.

    "The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon

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    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=629719403&postcount=3388


    Ironwill2008 Workout Journal:
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157459343&p=1145168733
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  20. #50
    Registered User milknpeanutbtr's Avatar
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    I know you said your vegetarian but someone who might be helpful for you to look at and research is Erin Moubray a vegan WBFF Athlete to get some ideas. Last thing, I am not vegetarian but I do struggle with eating a large portions of meat/poultry. It just doesn't appeal to me so I will often eat non-fat plain dairy products like Greek yogurt (22g protein a serving). You could also turn to a protein powder others mentioned.
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  21. #51
    Registered User Faymus's Avatar
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    If you do find a good meal plan, if you could go ahead and message me that would be great. My girlfriend is vegetarian and she has a hard time setting up a meal plan for herself as well, as most plans contain significant amounts of meat.
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  22. #52
    Registered User yummycow's Avatar
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    First of all Google is great

    http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/

    I do wonder about those who are vegetarians for ethical reason. I tried it when I was in college but quickly dropped it after school.

    I mean why is dairy OK and meat isn't? The dairy animals are treated just as poorly and aren't given the mercy of an early death. That doesn't seem very ethical to me.

    Also why isn't hunting and fishing an option? If you hunt it you know it hasn't lived in a cage all it's life and hasn't been fed corn or hormones. You are also the one that ensures it has a quick and painless death. It's free range all natural and you get some exercise getting out there hiking around looking for it.
    “A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government” -George Washington

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=149057133
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  23. #53
    Registered User abendm's Avatar
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    OP... I really don't want to sound like a dick, but your scientific and logical reasoning in a number of these posts is just mind-boggling. That being said, I appreciate that you're looking for actual advice, and I'm going to assume you aren't intentionally trolling... a few basic nutritional points for an aspiring BBer/fitness model:

    1) Unless you have an underlying kidney disease OR you specifically go out of your way to eat a caloric surplus of protein, you CANNOT eat too much protein (specifically you... not "a person")

    2) Protein does not make one fat, excess calories do. When one consumes excess calories, generally dietary fat is stored as fat, not protein (assumes a diet with sane macros... i.e., balanced/keto, not a PSMF where you're in a caloric surplus).

    3) ADA requirements are bare minimums set for the average (read sedentary) individual.

    4) Greek yogurt, whey protein supps, milk/casein supps, milk, eggs, egg protein supps, pea protein supps, wheat protein supps, various nuts/beans/legumes, certain grains (quinoa, bulgur, spelt), and soy protein supps (jury's out on phytoestrogens... I get some soy protein and my test is fine... you're a woman so it's a bit diff, but as long as you don't get all of your protein from soy I doubt it's an issue) are all viable vegetarian sources of protein.

    5) You don't have to eat breakfast... nor do you have to eat before going to the gym in the afternoon. Some days I don't eat before going to the gym at 3 in the afternoon. If you like eating breakfast, eat it, if not, don't. Caloric balance and macros matter much more than meal-timing. See leangains.com or various threads on this site discussing intermittent fasting (IF). Martin at leangains links to loads of studies if that's your thing, but you could probably trust the (admittedly anecdotal) collective wisdom of thousands on bb.com who use IF successfully both cutting (with little LBM loss).

    6) Go to nurtition forums and read stickies, they're a good starting point. In conjunction with the point made above... nutrition generally is different for athletes (generic term) than the general population. For instance, I don't track it nearly as thoroughly as macros/calories, but if I don't get enough sodium or potassium I wake up with cramps. I probably consume about 10g per day. BP was 116/63 at physical in Dec.
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