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  1. #1
    Registered User TheGauntlet700's Avatar
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    metabolism and carbs

    Hi a strange thing happened last night. I ate a pretty healthy dinner, 20 oz of white meat chicken and vegetable stir fry noodles and washed it down with water. I ate this meal late last night at around 10pm. I usually weigh around 186 lbs but this morning I was 190! Weird thing is, 2 nights ago being a holiday dinner, I ate turkey, pot roast, mashed potatoes, vegetables, multiple slices of pie, and washed it down with sparkling juices! However the next morning I was 187 lbs! Does eating late at night have THAT much of an effect on one's metabolism?
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    Training for IronMan megdaig's Avatar
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    No...it's not a metabolism effect.

    What you are experiencing is glycogen and water retention that is determine by how many calories and carbs you have consumed.
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  3. #3
    Registered User TheGauntlet700's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    No...it's not a metabolism effect.

    What you are experiencing is glycogen and water retention that is determine by how many calories and carbs you have consumed.
    Thank you for responding but I don't agree with this because I ate much more calories and a little bit more carbohydrates 2 nights ago, why did I lose most of it overnight?
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  4. #4
    Training for IronMan megdaig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    Thank you for responding but I don't agree with this because I ate much more calories and a little bit more carbohydrates 2 nights ago, why did I lose most of it overnight?
    It depends on your current state....in a caloric deficit...or glycogen depleted...many factors.

    Every 1g of carb retains approximately 3 grams of water. If you ate only a bit more of carbs you likely won't see a difference on the scale.

    If you've been maintaining a deficit for a long period of time you could have experienced the woosh effect; where as fat is being lost the fat cells fill with water in anticipation of being refilled with fat, when fat isn't gained the cells release the water and you'll see a step change in weight on the scale...

    There are many scenarios that could occur.
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    No...it's not a metabolism effect.

    What you are experiencing is glycogen and water retention that is determine by how many calories and carbs you have consumed.
    Megdaig,

    Can you say more about this and how glycogen works in the body?

    I stopped eating refined carbs for a couple of weeks and found that I dropped a lot of weight.


    Edit: Sorry to bust in on your thread OP.
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    Training for IronMan megdaig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by UnaChispita View Post
    Megdaig,

    Can you say more about this and how glycogen works in the body?

    I stopped eating refined carbs for a couple of weeks and found that I dropped a lot of weight.


    Edit: Sorry to bust in on your thread OP.
    Was it a large initial loss or is it steady?

    I find that as my carb and calorie intake is extremely consistent my fat loss APPEARS to be more linear because I eliminate the effect of water retention.
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    ╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮ acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Those who are glycogen depleted and consume an excess amount of carbs will find the greatest weight gain. When you consume carbs with a surplus in a depleted stated, for every 1 gram of glycogen you store, you will store 3 grams of water.

    If you are currently NOT depleted, and already retaining water... then consuming carbs will have a smaller impact on weight gain (water retention).

    My personal refeed pattern will have me gain about 5-6 pounds overnight.
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    Registered User UnaChispita's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    Was it a large initial loss or is it steady?

    I find that as my carb and calorie intake is extremely consistent my fat loss APPEARS to be more linear because I eliminate the effect of water retention.
    Hey! Thanks for answering. It was a large initial loss and then I introduced carbs back in. Still losing weight but at a much slower pace.

    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Those who are glycogen depleted and consume an excess amount of carbs will find the greatest weight gain. When you consume carbs with a surplus in a depleted stated, for every 1 gram of glycogen you store, you will store 3 grams of water.

    If you are currently NOT depleted, and already retaining water... then consuming carbs will have a smaller impact on weight gain (water retention).

    My personal refeed pattern will have me gain about 5-6 pounds overnight.
    Oh. I see. What's a refeed pattern?
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    ╭∩╮(︶︿︶)╭∩╮ acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by UnaChispita View Post
    Oh. I see. What's a refeed pattern?
    Some find that certain forms of meal timing does help in a variety of ways when trying to get to very low body fat levels. I typically limit my carbs during the week (less then 150 grams) and stay in a deficit. One day a week, I refeed. I increase my carbs intake to about 350 grams and limit fat intake while in a slight caloric surplus.

    My aim is to get sub 9% bodyfat in about 10 weeks.


    ^^^ Not something that should be worried about when just dieting down.
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Some find that certain forms of meal timing does help in a variety of ways when trying to get to very low body fat levels. I typically limit my carbs during the week (less then 150 grams) and stay in a deficit. One day a week, I refeed. I increase my carbs intake to about 350 grams and limit fat intake while in a slight caloric surplus.

    My aim is to get sub 9% bodyfat in about 10 weeks.
    So, I have another probably stupid question. You increase carbs but decrease fat intake on a refeed day. Why do you have to worry about fat if you're eating at a deficit anyway?


    ^^^ Not something that should be worried about when just dieting down.
    Got it!

    I just find the whole topic fascinating since I always thought it was a simple limit your calories to 1200 day if you wanted to lose weight kind of thing.
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  11. #11
    Registered User TheGauntlet700's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Some find that certain forms of meal timing does help in a variety of ways when trying to get to very low body fat levels. I typically limit my carbs during the week (less then 150 grams) and stay in a deficit. One day a week, I refeed. I increase my carbs intake to about 350 grams and limit fat intake while in a slight caloric surplus.

    My aim is to get sub 9% bodyfat in about 10 weeks.


    ^^^ Not something that should be worried about when just dieting down.
    Both of you guys sound strange to me. To the first responder, if water was retained in the cells and then released, why would you weigh more then? They are both in your body. Actually, if you have a surplus of water in your body, wouldn't you pee it out and weigh less because there is less water in your body? To the second responder, I'm not getting down to very low body fat levels. I have above average body fat levels. I used to weigh over 200 lbs and have been slimming down gradually. The biggst factor I think it could be is the fact that I ate before going to bed, since 2 nights ago I ate much more calories and more carbs but burned most of it off overnight while last night I did not. Another factor may be going to the bathroom, I used it and am now 188lbs, I might have weight myself after using the restroom yesterday too.
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  12. #12
    Training for IronMan megdaig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    Both of you guys sound strange to me. To the first responder, if water was retained in the cells and then released, why would you weigh more then? They are both in your body. Actually, if you have a surplus of water in your body, wouldn't you pee it out and weigh less because there is less water in your body? To the second responder, I'm not getting down to very low body fat levels. I have above average body fat levels. I used to weigh over 200 lbs and have been slimming down gradually. The biggst factor I think it could be is the fact that I ate before going to bed, since 2 nights ago I ate much more calories and more carbs but burned most of it off overnight while last night I did not. Another factor may be going to the bathroom, I used it and am now 188lbs, I might have weight myself after using the restroom yesterday too.
    You are completely missing the basics.

    What you are proposing is that you increased your metabolism by over 400%. Not physiologically practical.
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    Training for IronMan megdaig's Avatar
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    ...

    Now starting to think this is a troll thread...
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    ...

    Now starting to think this is a troll thread...
    I'm not so sure.

    Glycogen/water storage in muscles was brand new info to me a few weeks ago...
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    Training for IronMan megdaig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by UnaChispita View Post
    I'm not so sure.

    Glycogen/water storage in muscles was brand new info to me a few weeks ago...
    I said that due to their reluctance to believe that that are experiencing simple water fluctuations over an impossibly large increase in metabolic rate.


    OP...try reading this thread for a start--> http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703921 it may answer a lot of your questions/doubts.
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    Originally Posted by UnaChispita View Post
    So, I have another probably stupid question. You increase carbs but decrease fat intake on a refeed day. Why do you have to worry about fat if you're eating at a deficit anyway?
    you're not in a deficit during a refeed.

    when you start to get really lean, 'fat balance' is something that starts to count. you want as little fat storage as possible vs fat loss, so on a refeed when your goal is to refill glycogen you keep fat intake low.
    Last edited by Miranda; 12-26-2012 at 01:06 PM.
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    I said that due to their reluctance to believe that that are experiencing simple water fluctuations over an impossibly large increase in metabolic rate.
    .
    Ah. I see.

    Originally Posted by Miranda View Post
    you're not in a deficit during a refeed.
    Right. I meant if he was eating at a deficit during the week, why would fat intake matter so much...

    when you start to get really lean, fat balance is something that starts to count. you want little fat storage vs loss, so on a refeed you keep fat intake as low as possible.
    Oh. I get it!

    Thanks!
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    ...

    Now starting to think this is a troll thread...
    heh heh whatever. You didn't answer my question though: if cells retain water and then release it, why would you weigh more then? They are both in your body? I am not a biochemist, but what you said seems to violate the law of conservation of mass.

    Do you realize that what you said sounded equivalent to saying if I had a plastic bag with a cup filled with water, and then I empty the cup into its surrounding bag, the whole thing will weigh more? Try to be either more accurate or at least more articulate before you criticize someone
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    I said that due to their reluctance to believe that that are experiencing simple water fluctuations over an impossibly large increase in metabolic rate.


    OP...try reading this thread for a start--> http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703921 it may answer a lot of your questions/doubts.
    Simple water fluctuations? My other response to you aside, I drank more 2 nights ago than I did last night. Even more, I drank sugary drinks 2 nights ago, and I just drank water last night. SIMPLE water fluctuations, lol. OK so drinking more of a liquid that would make me gain weight caused me to LOSE more weight instead. Please leave my thread.
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    heh heh whatever. You didn't answer my question though: if cells retain water and then release it, why would you weigh more then? They are both in your body? I am not a biochemist, but what you said seems to violate the law of conservation of mass.

    Do you realize that what you said sounded equivalent to saying if I had a plastic bag with a cup filled with water, and then I empty the cup into its surrounding bag, the whole thing will weigh more? Try to be either more accurate or at least more articulate before you criticize someone
    Not what I said. You can be eating at a deficit for a week and not see any movement on the scale due to the water replacing the fat...once the woosh (release of water) occurs you then can see a large decrease on the scale overnight. It may seem like you lost 2 pounds overnight when it really was the accumulated loss throughout the week.

    The reason that you don't simply pee out the excess water is because it is intercellular.

    Example of the woosh....

    You've been eating at a 500 calorie a day deficit for 7 days so in theory you should lose a pound a week. You see no movement on the scale but on day 8 you lose a whole pound....
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    Not what I said. You can be eating at a deficit for a week and not see any movement on the scale due to the water replacing the fat...once the woosh (release of water) occurs you then can see a large decrease on the scale overnight. It may seem like you lost 2 pounds overnight when it really was the accumulated loss throughout the week.

    The reason that you don't simply pee out the excess water is because it is intercellular.

    Example of the woosh....

    You've been eating at a 500 calorie a day deficit for 7 days so in theory you should lose a pound a week. You see no movement on the scale but on day 8 you lose a whole pound....
    You said that you don't pee it out. So the first state would be water in cells that replaced the fat(I'm assuming the mass replaced was identical). The second state is a chemical reaction where the water expels from the cells, but since you don't pee it out it stays in the body. So how is there a decrease in weight because of this if you are weighing the body? You just reiterated what you said before and it sounds no different than my bag with cup example. By the way, I haven't gone on a caloric deficit, being the holiday season and all.
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    You said that you don't pee it out. So the first state would be water in cells that replaced the fat(I'm assuming the mass replaced was identical). The second state is a chemical reaction where the water expels from the cells, but since you don't pee it out it stays in the body. So how is there a decrease in weight because of this if you are weighing the body? You just reiterated what you said before and it sounds no different than my bag with cup example. By the way, I haven't gone on a caloric deficit, being the holiday season and all.
    the extra weight can be a combination of a number of things. not only one thing.

    - increased glycogen
    - increased body water (both in muscle and interstitial fluid, due to both carbohydrate and possibly increased sodium intake)
    - some fat storage
    - GI bulk (late dinner vs lunch)

    weight gain is not typically caused by fat cells holding water, weight retention may be. only empty fat cells can fill with water, because water and lipid don't mix.
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    Both of you guys sound strange to me. To the first responder, if water was retained in the cells and then released, why would you weigh more then?
    You would weight less. As water replaces fat in fat cells, mass is pretty much constant..once water is eliminated, mass decreases...the woosh.



    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    They are both in your body. Actually, if you have a surplus of water in your body, wouldn't you pee it out and weigh less because there is less water in your body? To the second responder, I'm not getting down to very low body fat levels. I have above average body fat levels. I used to weigh over 200 lbs and have been slimming down gradually. The biggst factor I think it could be is the fact that I ate before going to bed, since 2 nights ago I ate much more calories and more carbs but burned most of it off overnight while last night I did not. Another factor may be going to the bathroom, I used it and am now 188lbs, I might have weight myself after using the restroom yesterday too.
    The surpluse of water in the body that is a result of increased glycogen stores due to eating more carbs is intracellular (stored in the muscle) and is not eliminated therefore total mass is typically increased.



    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    You said that you don't pee it out. So the first state would be water in cells that replaced the fat(I'm assuming the mass replaced was identical).
    Correct


    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    The second state is a chemical reaction where the water expels from the cells, but since you don't pee it out it stays in the body. So how is there a decrease in weight because of this if you are weighing the body? You just reiterated what you said before and it sounds no different than my bag with cup example. By the way, I haven't gone on a caloric deficit, being the holiday season and all.
    Here's where I think we are getting each other confused. The water that is expelled from fat cells IS eliminated so mass decreases.

    The water that is stored in muscles due to an increase in glycogen stores (carbohydrate consumption) does not get eliminated so mass may increase.
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    Originally Posted by Miranda View Post
    the extra weight can be a combination of a number of things. not only one thing.

    - increased glycogen
    - increased body water (both in muscle and interstitial fluid, due to both carbohydrate and possibly increased sodium intake)
    - some fat storage
    - GI bulk (late dinner vs lunch)

    weight gain is not typically caused by fat cells holding water, weight retention may be. only empty fat cells can fill with water, because water and lipid don't mix.
    ^^this.



    OP...So you aren't eating at a deficit...are you at maintenance or a surplus? And how much of a surplus?

    Unless you've eaten 7000 calories over your maintenance the 2 pound gain (or was it 4?) over night is a combination of fat + glycogen + water. You will not affect you're metabolism so significantly that you would gain 4 pounds instantaneously when eating at a moderate surplus.

    And weighing yourself under the same conditions is important, like in the morning after using the restroom.
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    ^^this.



    OP...So you aren't eating at a deficit...are you at maintenance or a surplus? And how much of a surplus?

    Unless you've eaten 7000 calories over your maintenance the 2 pound gain (or was it 4?) over night is a combination of fat + glycogen + water. You will not affect you're metabolism so significantly that you would gain 4 pounds instantaneously when eating at a moderate surplus.

    And weighing yourself under the same conditions is important, like in the morning after using the restroom.
    Water in fat cells transfers to muscle cells so weight increases? I think it would stay the same for the same reason I mentioned before, the water went from being retained in fat cells to retained in muscle cells. This is kind of interesting and I'll try to ask a doctor about this to get more details and clarification. To answer your question, here is what I ate the past 2 days:

    Monday: dinner - 32 oz of sparkling juice, 12 oz. of club soda, about a lb of turkey/stuffing/vegetables, about a lb of pot roast/mashed potatoes/vegetables, 2 small slices fruit pie, 2 small slices chocolate cream pie. Eaten at 7pm.
    Tuesday: lunch - 18 oz burrito, 4 oz. water
    dinner - 20 oz of stir fry, 12 oz. water.

    Another factor may be that I worked out Monday afternoon for 1.5 hrs. I weighed myself Monday morning at 186, worked out, ate like a pig, and the next morning I was 187. So I think it was a combination of burning calories through my workout, the possible metabolic effects it had later that day, and the fact that I ate later yesterday.
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    Water in fat cells transfers to muscle cells so weight increases? I think it would stay the same for the same reason I mentioned before, the water went from being retained in fat cells to retained in muscle cells. This is kind of interesting and I'll try to ask a doctor about this to get more details and clarification.
    Ummmm...Gauntlet?

    You have looked at megdaig and miranda's avis, right?
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    Originally Posted by UnaChispita View Post
    Ummmm...Gauntlet?

    You have looked at megdaig and miranda's avis, right?
    A person with low body fat does not mean they necessarily know the science. I know plenty of stupid jacked guys who know less than me about biology and chemistry but have the desire and discipline to eat a strict diet all the time consisting of chicken, fish, broccoli, leafy greens, and drink water exclusively. Don't make the silly assumption that low body fat makes someone the definitive source on science. Achieving that has more to do with discipline than knowledge. Do you think the average person with single digit body fat knows more about the science than your average chemist? Even me, do you think those jacked guys are smarter than me even though I graduated with an engineering degree from a top 10 university?
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    A person with low body fat does not mean they necessarily know the science. I know plenty of stupid jacked guys who know less than me about biology and chemistry but have the desire and discipline to eat a strict diet all the time consisting of chicken, fish, broccoli, leafy greens, and drink water exclusively. Don't make the silly assumption that low body fat makes someone the definitive source on science. Achieving that has more to do with discipline than knowledge. Do you think the average person with single digit body fat knows more about the science than your average chemist? Even me, do you think those jacked guys are smarter than me even though I graduated with an engineering degree from a top 10 university?
    I too have an engineering degree...but doesn't mean we know more about science than someone with a basic bachelors degree in another area...or someone who has done a lot of research on studies regarding nutrition and metabolism.

    Your original question was in regards to affecting your metabolism based on what you ate and when you ate it. And our response is that the science and studies does not support that hypothesis.
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    Originally Posted by megdaig View Post
    I too have an engineering degree...but doesn't mean we know more about science than someone with a basic bachelors degree in another area...or someone who has done a lot of research on studies regarding nutrition and metabolism.

    Your original question was in regards to affecting your metabolism based on what you ate and when you ate it. And our response is that the science and studies does not support that hypothesis.
    I'm not getting productive/articulate responses in the thread so this will be my last post in it. I remember at my school, 99% of the people in my major or in biochemistry were either out of shape or average/slightly above average shape. You know who was most in shape? The guys and gals majoring in liberal arts such as political "science" and communications. I've tried talking with them before about biochemical topics, the science behind things and there was a dearth of knowledge. But you know what they did that I did not that gave them that six pack and allowed them to run faster and lift heavier? Besides genetics it was an intense desire and the discipline to follow through on a strict diet and tough workout plan. Getting jacked is simple, not easy. A total idiot with the desire and discipline to follow the right diet and workout plan someone gave him/her will get ripped whereas the premed or pHD kinesiology student with this knowledge coming out of his/her ears can easily be fat because they don't have the desire or time to do the same.
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    Originally Posted by TheGauntlet700 View Post
    I'm not getting productive/articulate responses in the thread so this will be my last post in it. I remember at my school, 99% of the people in my major or in biochemistry were either out of shape or average/slightly above average shape. You know who was most in shape? The guys and gals majoring in liberal arts such as political "science" and communications. I've tried talking with them before about biochemical topics, the science behind things and there was a dearth of knowledge. But you know what they did that I did not that gave them that six pack and allowed them to run faster and lift heavier? Besides genetics it was an intense desire and the discipline to follow through on a strict diet and tough workout plan. Getting jacked is simple, not easy. A total idiot with the desire and discipline to follow the right diet and workout plan someone gave him/her will get ripped whereas the premed or pHD kinesiology student with this knowledge coming out of his/her ears can easily be fat because they don't have the desire or time to do the same.
    But this has nothing to do with the science regarding metabolism....which is what you initially asked about.


    If you eat in a deficit, you will lose weight. If you eat in a surplus, you will gain weight. About 65% of your metabolism is determined by your physiology and genetics; how much mass you carry, your gender, age, hormone status, etc. The small knob that we have to adjust this is through our activity.
    "Don't hope...ensure..."


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