need help with a full body routine 3x a week

[tsora]

Hey everyone,

I am a college student with 3 semesters left and about to go into a career of law enforcement. I also work 20 hours a week. I can only lift on monday, wednesday, and friday. I am 5'6" and 140lbs. I would like to be around 165 by the end of college. i am looking for a full body workout that helps gain muscle and strength. im not looking to get ripped or shredded. i just want to get bigger and stronger. can anyone help me out with a 3x a week full body workout that helps gain muscle and strength? also can anyone give me some ideas on meals that can bought on a tight budget?

Thanks,

Tony

[DetMatthews]

Starting Strength. That's the IDEAL workout for you bar none.

Muscle building meals:
1 lb of ground turkey/beef + 1 box of mac n cheese = amazing (makes two meals, maybe 3)
Peanut butter and jelly
ground turkey/beef plus pasta and spaghetti sauce
rice + black beans + baked chicken cut up

It's easy to come up with meals that can put on lot of muscle. Just make sure they are high protein and high calorie. Also, all but the pb&j can be made in bulk and saved for later meals. Most of my bulking meals are just determined by what's on sale. Either chicken, turkey, or beef will be on sale pretty much every week so just get that.

[NZninja101]

Take a look at JasonDB's novice 5X5 for bodybuilders


http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=148036063


IMO do incline bench press on Workout B instead of overhead press, and add in 3 sets of calf raises. side raises and a rear delt exercise like face pulls or bent over raises. If you feel you're doing enough without the calf raises, side raises and a rear delt exercise then I would definitely still stress that you should do the rear delt exercise.

Starting Strength. That's the IDEAL workout for you bar none.

A workout that involves no shrugging movement, no calf raise, no bicep or tricep isolation, side or rear delt movements, no horizontal pull, only 4.5 sets for chest in an entire week, and only really hits the upper body once every 5 days is not for size.

[DetMatthews]

Ok, I have always added in chins after power cleans. I also posted a thread on Starting Strength assistance a couple days ago. I included face pulls for rear delts which are a really underrated exercise. How do you get the upper body is hit every 5 days? It gets hit every workout. You can criticize it all you want. I and many others have gotten great gains from it that I don't think could be duplicated on many other programs if any. For someone who just wants to put on weight and get strong, who doesn't sound like he's looking to cut soon if ever, yeah, it's perfect for him. And there is a shrugging movement. It's at the top of the military press if done correctly. Very effective.

[NZninja101]

Ok, I have always added in chins after power cleans. I also posted a thread on Starting Strength assistance a couple days ago. I included face pulls for rear delts which are a really underrated exercise.

Then it's no longer starting strength. I've got no problem with a beginner who wants strength and size doing some variation of starting strength with various assistance lifts, but vanilla SS is chit for the size aspect. Babylover's Starting Strength is way better for those looking for strength AND size.

How do you get the upper body is hit every 5 days? It gets hit every workout.

Well... the front delts and triceps do indirectly. And I guess the traps do too with deadlifts and power cleans. But the chest doesn't. And the side delts, (which aren't really hit that hard on overhead press anyway), aren't. And the lats aren't. And the biceps aren't.

You can criticize it all you want. I and many others have gotten great gains from it that [b]I don't think could be duplicated on many other programs if any.[b] For someone who just wants to put on weight and get strong, who doesn't sound like he's looking to cut soon if ever, yeah, it's perfect for him.

Starting Strength is not magic. Rippetoe is not God. You don't have to do starting strength if you are a beginner.

And there is a shrugging movement. It's at the top of the military press if done correctly. Very effective.

Probably not as effective as real shrugs.

[FeelTheFear]

I like JasonDBs fullbody because it's still a ROUTINE that you follow and thus is better for a beginner, but it also has more volume than SS so it's better for hypertrophy and doesn't overcomplicate things

[MichaelCJ]

Stronglifts + chinups (after deads) + ab work (after rows).

Then, when progress falters badly, think about some advanced novice / intermediate program or other. Or simply chop stuff down to 3x5 and/or do front squats (or lunges) instead of back squats on Wednesdays, and add in a couple more lifts throughout the week, as you see fit - triceps, traps... whatever you think needs more attention.

It's free, from stronglifts.com and there's a lot of info and advice there, as well as videos detailing form and other things.

[DetMatthews]

Then it's no longer starting strength. I've got no problem with a beginner who wants strength and size doing some variation of starting strength with various assistance lifts, but vanilla SS is chit for the size aspect. Babylover's Starting Strength is way better for those looking for strength AND size.

Well... the front delts and triceps do indirectly. And I guess the traps do too with deadlifts and power cleans. But the chest doesn't. And the side delts, (which aren't really hit that hard on overhead press anyway), aren't. And the lats aren't. And the biceps aren't.

Starting Strength is not magic. Rippetoe is not God. You don't have to do starting strength if you are a beginner.

Probably not as effective as real shrugs.

There is so much wrong with what you just said, and I think the OP could learn a lot from this discussion.

First, the OP said he wants to gain strength and muscle. It seems pretty clear to me (I don't want to put words in his mouth) that he wants to bulk up and get stronger FOR HIS JOB in law enforcement. Not for a physique competition, and not to impress girls with his guns. He also said he only has three days a week. One of the reasons some might say babylover's is better is because without squats every day you can do 4 and 5 days a week to start. He doesn't have that option so IMO that makes SS a better choice. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll correct me and that's totally cool. Either way, the rest of the post will still stand.

On Military Press: You've got to be kidding me. Front delts and tris indirectly? Raise your arm right now. Not weighted, but reach hard like you're trying to touch the sky. Front delt, side delt, traps all flexed. Now imagine that with 150 pounds in your hands. It's an upper body exercise, and one of the best. It also hits your upper chest to get the bar off your chest. No, it doesn't hit your entire upper body, but it does come close. You don't need to hit every single thing every single time you're in the gym to get results.

On Assistance: I don't know why people think SS doesn't work for size and why people think you can't use assistance. Rip recommends 3 sets of abs 3 times a week for beginners. It's not in the template. I asked him if I could add chins for 2 sets of failure and he said yes. It's not in the template. There's an entire section in his book for assistance exercises. It goes over front squats, chins, pullups, and dips, among many others. They're not in the template. Assistance is to help with a hypertrophy goal that isn't otherwise covered or help with your core lifts. If after doing the program for a bit, you find either the program is lacking (lack of rear delt attention) or your genetics require more work (my biceps need more volume than just chins to grow), you add assistance. If it doesn't add much to your time in the gym, doesn't affect your CNS much if at all, and won't detract from your core lift progression, add it. Who cares. You're not going to Hell if you add in 3 sets of relatively light bicep curls once or twice a week. Same goes for calves. You don't really need them, but if you think you do, add them in. No big deal. If it starts to hurt your main lifts, take them out.

On shrugs: What's the best exercise for legs? 20 rep squats. Your program doesn't have them, my program doesn't have them. You don't scrap the program because of a lack of one or two exercises, especially when that muscle is hit plenty hard with the other exercises. My roommate commented the other day how large my traps had gotten recently. No shrugs. Wendler also said: "I have bigger traps than 99% of people and I don't do them."

Also just a general comment, if you think adding a couple isolation exercises will make one program WAY better for hypertrophy than another, that's kind of ridiculous. JasonDB's is good, but I need 5-6 minutes between sets of squats at this point, and my workouts are now taking about an hour and a half. On that kind of volume I would be in the gym forever, or I would have to lower my weight for many of the exercises. Only add what you need to add. I have made great SIZE and STRENGTH gains and have gotten comments from MANY people, in the gym and otherwise.

[tsora]

[QUOTE=DetMatthews;998427563]There is so much wrong with what you just said, and I think the OP could learn a lot from this discussion.

First, the OP said he wants to gain strength and muscle. It seems pretty clear to me (I don't want to put words in his mouth) that he wants to bulk up and get stronger FOR HIS JOB in law enforcement. Not for a physique competition, and not to impress girls with his guns. He also said he only has three days a week. One of the reasons some might say babylover's is better is because without squats every day you can do 4 and 5 days a week to start. He doesn't have that option so IMO that makes SS a better choice. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll correct me and that's totally cool. Either way, the rest of the post will still stand.

DetMatthews

I agree with you. I'm not wanting to get cut or shredded. I've done that lifting before ands that's not what I'm interested in. I want to bulk up and gain a lot of strength for my career. This is what I'm interested in and I'm not sure how to do it. That's why I'm seeking advice on here

[Joe2DovesGiotto]

I want to bulk up and gain a lot of strength for my career. This is what I'm interested in and I'm not sure how to do it. That's why I'm seeking advice on here

From a "job performance" POV, the power cleans in SS will help develop some explosiveness. Eventually the linear gains on that program will dwindle, and beyond that, you might want to incorporate some Oly lifting to further develop the dynamic performance angle.

[smallboy2012]

Workout A
- Squat
- Bench press
- Rows
- Dips
- Calf raise

Workout B
- Deadlift
- Overhead Press
- Chin up
- Abs
- Bicep curl

[DetMatthews]

OP, everyone has their favorite beginner full body routine and almost all of them are based in sound training philosophy. JasonDB's, Starting Strength, SL 5x5, and the routine smallboy posted, all have basic compound exercises done fairly frequently for low reps. Some have more volume than others. SS has the least, JasonDB's has the most. All will work and should work well for you. Also, if you do one with more volume, as you get closer to your strength potential, recovery may start to be a problem. Don't be afraid to 1. drop some of the assistance lighter isolation lifts or 2. reduce volume on the compound lifts to 4 sets and then to 3 if they become a problem. Best of luck, man.

[tsora]

Thanks appreciate all the help

[NZninja101]

There is so much wrong with what you just said, and I think the OP could learn a lot from this discussion.

First, the OP said he wants to gain strength and muscle. It seems pretty clear to me (I don't want to put words in his mouth) that he wants to bulk up and get stronger FOR HIS JOB in law enforcement. Not for a physique competition, and not to impress girls with his guns. He also said he only has three days a week. One of the reasons some might say babylover's is better is because without squats every day you can do 4 and 5 days a week to start. He doesn't have that option so IMO that makes SS a better choice. If I'm wrong, I'm sure he'll correct me and that's totally cool. Either way, the rest of the post will still stand.

Actually there's nothing wrong with what I said. Rather it's you who has made a few mistakes. OP said he wanted to gain muscle AND strength. Not just one. And vanilla starting strength is poor for size. Also you don't have to do Babylover's Starting Strength 4-5 times a week. Babylover explicitly said to go by feel. You can still do the program and train 3 days a week.

On Military Press: You've got to be kidding me. Front delts and tris indirectly? Raise your arm right now. Not weighted, but reach hard like you're trying to touch the sky. Front delt, side delt, traps all flexed. Now imagine that with 150 pounds in your hands. It's an upper body exercise, and one of the best. It also hits your upper chest to get the bar off your chest. No, it doesn't hit your entire upper body, but it does come close. You don't need to hit every single thing every single time you're in the gym to get results.

If you think that military press is enough for the triceps, the side delt, the traps and the upper chest, then you are dumb. I guess there's no need to do curls either because they are used as a stabilizer in bench press... right...? right?


There's a reason why people who have the best results hit their muscles directly, and that reason is because for many, 6 exercises is not enough to properly hit the entire body.


Also nobody said you have to hit every muscle in the body in one session. It is possible to split it up. If you were more familiar with Babylover's Starting Strength then you would know this.

On Assistance: I don't know why people think SS doesn't work for size and why people think you can't use assistance. Rip recommends 3 sets of abs 3 times a week for beginners. It's not in the template. I asked him if I could add chins for 2 sets of failure and he said yes. It's not in the template. There's an entire section in his book for assistance exercises. It goes over front squats, chins, pullups, and dips, among many others. They're not in the template. Assistance is to help with a hypertrophy goal that isn't otherwise covered or help with your core lifts. If after doing the program for a bit, you find either the program is lacking (lack of rear delt attention) or your genetics require more work (my biceps need more volume than just chins to grow), you add assistance. If it doesn't add much to your time in the gym, doesn't affect your CNS much if at all, and won't detract from your core lift progression, add it. Who cares. You're not going to Hell if you add in 3 sets of relatively light bicep curls once or twice a week. Same goes for calves. You don't really need them, but if you think you do, add them in. No big deal. If it starts to hurt your main lifts, take them out.

Actually chin ups are in the template, it's in the newest version of starting strength.

Regarding the bold, this is absolutely right. But the problem with SS is that many of the people that do it don't have the book, and are guilt tripped by the minimalism-based starting strength enthusiasts on forums to not 'mess with the program' Where does Rippe recommend this assistance work in his book?

On shrugs: What's the best exercise for legs? 20 rep squats. Your program doesn't have them, my program doesn't have them. You don't scrap the program because of a lack of one or two exercises,

20 rep squats are not necessarily the 'best' exercise for legs. And if you only do 1 exercise for legs and have the goal of gaining muscle, then you've either been on starting strength forums for too long, or you're just lazy.

especially when that muscle is hit plenty hard with the other exercises. My roommate commented the other day how large my traps had gotten recently. No shrugs. Wendler also said: "I have bigger traps than 99% of people and I don't do them."

Except they're not.


I'd like to add that traps were of my least concern regarding neglected muscles. I've never done shrugs, and the only reason I might start doing them is because I like the feel of heavy dumbbells in my hands. The novice lifter should be far more concerned with a lack of emphasis on other muscles.

Also just a general comment, if you think adding a couple isolation exercises will make one program WAY better for hypertrophy than another, that's kind of ridiculous.

To be fair, Babylover's starting strength IS considerably better regarding biceps, rear delts, triceps, calves, upper back and chest.

To put it simply, if you go from not doing curls, to doing curls, then that's quite a difference for the biceps.

JasonDB's is good, but I need 5-6 minutes between sets of squats at this point, and my workouts are now taking about an hour and a half. On that kind of volume I would be in the gym forever, or I would have to lower my weight for many of the exercises. Only add what you need to add. I have made great SIZE and STRENGTH gains and have gotten comments from MANY people, in the gym and otherwise.

As I've said, A workout that involves no shrugging movement, no calf raise, no bicep or tricep isolation, side or rear delt movements, no horizontal pull, only 4.5 sets for chest in an entire week, and only really hits the upper body once every 5 days is not optimal for size. Regarding muscle, you could probably have had better results on a routine that incorporated more direct training.

Considering that Jason's routine is for bodybuilders, weight isn't the only important factor.






Anyway, best of luck to the OP. Just don't fall into the trap of not hitting muscles directly if you want them to grow as much as possible.

[DetMatthews]

Let's both at least acknowledge that almost none of this is fact and that we're both talking about our opinions. That said,

Actually there's nothing wrong with what I said. Rather it's you who has made a few mistakes. OP said he wanted to gain muscle AND strength. Not just one. And vanilla starting strength is poor for size. Also you don't have to do Babylover's Starting Strength 4-5 times a week. Babylover explicitly said to go by feel. You can still do the program and train 3 days a week.

If you are not doing babylover's more than 3x a week on non-consecutive days, then the main benefit it is is gone. The one thing that would make it better than SS is that you can do it more often because you aren't doing squats every single workout. If you're not, doing squats 3x a week is better than 3x every two weeks.

If you think that military press is enough for the triceps, the side delt, the traps and the upper chest, then you are dumb. I guess there's no need to do curls either because they are used as a stabilizer in bench press... right...? right?

I don't think it's better. I know it's better. My entire upper body has exploded, and the only addition (until recently) I had made to the program is chins 2xfailure on power clean days. My traps have gotten much better, my arms are bigger, chest has gotten very large. And no, I'm not an idiot. Of course your biceps aren't hit that hard. That's why I added chins.

There's a reason why people who have the best results hit their muscles directly, and that reason is because for many, 6 exercises is not enough to properly hit the entire body.

It's possible I have better genetics than everyone else when it comes to putting on muscle and my upper body has gotten much larger despite the fact I'm using such inferior exercises as bench and military press to build it. What's more likely is that that volume and those exercises are enough and I am eating properly and following the program effectively and people who don't get the results I'm getting aren't.

Also nobody said you have to hit every muscle in the body in one session. It is possible to split it up. If you were more familiar with Babylover's Starting Strength then you would know this.

I won't say I'm a babylover's SS aficionado but I'm fairly familiar with it and I've looked at it with as objective an eye as my experiences allows. I'm not saying it's a ****ty program. It's ok. It's better than most of the crap people throw out there, but I think SS is better. But I think that for the most part your entire body is hit in every workout with both SS and babylover's SS.

Actually chin ups are in the template, it's in the newest version of starting strength. Regarding the bold, this is absolutely right. But the problem with SS is that many of the people that do it don't have the book, and are guilt tripped by the minimalism-based starting strength enthusiasts on forums to not 'mess with the program' Where does Rippe recommend this assistance work in his book?

You're right, they do come into the mix later on, just not right away. I was adding them (with Rip's blessing) to the power clean days which is not in the template. And yes, we're on the same page about assistance. I don't know why you're arguing with me on this when this is the one thing we agree on. It's like with any sport, you learn the right way to do things. Then, when you have enough experience to make the judgment, you make the necessary changes. Most people on SS don't have the experience to do that, so it's easier to have them stick to the program than to potentially **** it up. But that generally has to do with people making changes to the things that define SS: the core lifts, their frequency, and their programming. As I pointed out earlier, SS isn't defined as having no assistance. Start the program, and when you notice something lacking, make the necessary changes as long as they don't affect the core lifts. Just like with everything else, the extreme points of view are generally the wrong ones.

20 rep squats are not necessarily the 'best' exercise for legs. And if you only do 1 exercise for legs and have the goal of gaining muscle, then you've either been on starting strength forums for too long, or you're just lazy.

JasonDB's, the routine you recommended, has only squats as a leg exercises (if you don't count deadlifts which all of them have). Babylover's has squats alternated with front squats. Squats use more muscle mass, and build more strength and muscle than front squats, so they should be done more often. Use front squats to break the monotony once you've been doing the routine for a while or to give your legs a break when the poundages get high.

Except they're not.

Like I said, maybe I'm the exception to the rule. But my traps have grown just fine. Military press done the way most people do them (body straight, bar resting in hands, straight up to a point in front of the lifter's body) hit your triceps, your front delts, maybe a couple other things. Done the way the the SS book instructs (hips forward, bar resting on upper chest, head pivoted under the bar as soon as it passes your forehead so the bar is in line with your spine, hitting your traps and side delts hard) does a spectacular job of hitting damn near your entire upper body, not to mention rocking your core. If you think they don't hit the side delts at all, then we are not doing the same exercise.

I'd like to add that traps were of my least concern regarding neglected muscles. I've never done shrugs, and the only reason I might start doing them is because I like the feel of heavy dumbbells in my hands. The novice lifter should be far more concerned with a lack of emphasis on other muscles.
To be fair, Babylover's starting strength IS considerably better regarding biceps, rear delts, triceps, calves, upper back and chest.
To put it simply, if you go from not doing curls, to doing curls, then that's quite a difference for the biceps.

My outlook on assistance pretty much says all I need to say on this. If you need it do it. If not don't. The assistance in Babylover's is: cable rows, curls, rear delt flyes, dips, and tricep isolation. I add face pulls for rear delts and encourage others to do so as well. In the short time I've been doing them I've gotten good results and they should also help with proper bench form. I also do dips because bench is getting difficult and I think the additional (albeit light) work for my triceps should keep me from stalling. Other than that, the difference is Rows vs. Power Cleans. Rows are great, but I'd recommend power cleans for the simple fact that power cleans will have carryover to deadlift and rows don't. Why you would need cable rows at all when you just did barbell rows for 3 heavy sets of 5 is beyond me.

As I've said, A workout that involves no shrugging movement, no calf raise, no bicep or tricep isolation, side or rear delt movements, no horizontal pull, only 4.5 sets for chest in an entire week, and only really hits the upper body once every 5 days is not optimal for size. Regarding muscle, you could probably have had better results on a routine that incorporated more direct training. Considering that Jason's routine is for bodybuilders, weight isn't the only important factor. Anyway, best of luck to the OP. Just don't fall into the trap of not hitting muscles directly if you want them to grow as much as possible.

As I figured out immediately from reading between the lines and as the OP agreed with, he's not looking to be a bodybuilder. Your whole criticism started with you saying that SS doesn't build strength and size. This is not some routine someone posted that I'm critiquing or even some detailed write-up I'm analyzing. This is based on MY OWN RESULTS. I've put on lots of weight, most of it muscle, including in all the spots you've said aren't hit well with this program. I know it works for both strength and size. Is it possible I would have gotten better results with another program? Absolutely, but I would be retarded to stop doing something that has given me better results than I thought possible and fast to boot.

The reason I said IDEAL in caps is because the poster is pretty much exactly like me. He wants to get bigger and stronger, he doesn't have any deadlines that are immediate, and he doesn't seem to want to deal with minutia like are his rear delts in balance.

Let's go worst case scenario. You acknowledge that SS is great for strength, even better for strength than JasonDB's because it has 3x5 which allows for more rest between sets so weight can be increased more often instead of having workout time be a limiting factor. People stay on SS generally for 3 to 9 months. Let's split the difference and say 6. Let's say he doesn't gain a single pound (not likely) and only gains a ton of strength. He then has 12 months to apply the LARGE amounts of strength he would have built to a mass building program, which would yield even better results than if he had started on another program which didn't get him as strong. No matter how you slice it, SS is the best route for him to take.

You're welcome to have the last word. This debate has been fun but I think I'll let the OP have his thread back now.

[NZninja101]

Let's both at least acknowledge that almost none of this is fact and that we're both talking about our opinions. That said,

It's pretty factual that hitting a muscle directly > expecting exercises that don't even focus on it to do the job

If you are not doing babylover's more than 3x a week on non-consecutive days, then the main benefit it is is gone. The one thing that would make it better than SS is that you can do it more often because you aren't doing squats every single workout. If you're not, doing squats 3x a week is better than 3x every two weeks.

Actually the benefit of training muscles that vanilla SS neglects is still there. I wouldn't say extra frequency trumps this.

I don't think it's better. I know it's better. My entire upper body has exploded, and the only addition (until recently) I had made to the program is chins 2xfailure on power clean days. My traps have gotten much better, my arms are bigger, chest has gotten very large. And no, I'm not an idiot. Of course your biceps aren't hit that hard. That's why I added chins.

I never said the word better in the bit you quoted.


I said, If you think that military press is enough for the triceps, the side delt, the traps and the upper chest, then you are dumb.

The majority of the population would see more bicep growth from doing chins AND curls than just chins.

It's possible I have better genetics than everyone else when it comes to putting on muscle and my upper body has gotten much larger despite the fact I'm using such inferior exercises as bench and military press to build it. What's more likely is that that volume and those exercises are enough and I am eating properly and following the program effectively and people who don't get the results I'm getting aren't.

I never said that the bench press and the military press are inferior exercises. They are fine. But you're going to need more than that if you want to fully hit your triceps, upper chest, side and rear delts.


Trying to put words into the opponents mouth is a typical tactic of someone who's starting to realize that their argument is falling apart.

I won't say I'm a babylover's SS aficionado but I'm fairly familiar with it and I've looked at it with as objective an eye as my experiences allows. I'm not saying it's a ****ty program. It's ok. It's better than most of the crap people throw out there, but I think SS is better. But I think that for the most part your entire body is hit in every workout with both SS and babylover's SS.

At least the bold is kinda half right.

You're right, they do come into the mix later on, just not right away. I was adding them (with Rip's blessing) to the power clean days which is not in the template.

You shouldn't need a man's permission to do vertical pulls in a program. It should be there on default.

And yes, we're on the same page about assistance. I don't know why you're arguing with me on this when this is the one thing we agree on. It's like with any sport, you learn the right way to do things. Then, when you have enough experience to make the judgment, you make the necessary changes. Most people on SS don't have the experience to do that, so it's easier to have them stick to the program than to potentially **** it up. But that generally has to do with people making changes to the things that define SS: the core lifts, their frequency, and their programming. As I pointed out earlier, SS isn't defined as having no assistance. Start the program, and when you notice something lacking, make the necessary changes as long as they don't affect the core lifts. Just like with everything else, the extreme points of view are generally the wrong ones.

I think it is better to include some assistance work immediately, rather than to have nobody initially include it, and then 90% of them later realize they do.

JasonDB's, the routine you recommended, has only squats as a leg exercises (if you don't count deadlifts which all of them have). Babylover's has squats alternated with front squats. Squats use more muscle mass, and build more strength and muscle than front squats, so they should be done more often.

So back squats > front squats... because you use more weight?

Guess everyone should start doing quarter squats then.

Like I said, maybe I'm the exception to the rule. But my traps have grown just fine. Military press done the way most people do them (body straight, bar resting in hands, straight up to a point in front of the lifter's body) hit your triceps, your front delts, maybe a couple other things. Done the way the the SS book instructs (hips forward, bar resting on upper chest, head pivoted under the bar as soon as it passes your forehead so the bar is in line with your spine, hitting your traps and side delts hard) does a spectacular job of hitting damn near your entire upper body, not to mention rocking your core. If you think they don't hit the side delts at all, then we are not doing the same exercise.

Does overhead press hit the triceps? Sure it does. So does Karate. But you wouldn't rely on that to get big triceps. It hits the triceps, but it doesn't hit them enough. Direct work does though.


When you look at the movement of the bar, and the function of the side delts, you'll see that overhead pressing doesn't fully hit them either.

My outlook on assistance pretty much says all I need to say on this. If you need it do it. If not don't. The assistance in Babylover's is: cable rows, curls, rear delt flyes, dips, and tricep isolation. I add face pulls for rear delts and encourage others to do so as well. In the short time I've been doing them I've gotten good results and they should also help with proper bench form. I also do dips because bench is getting difficult and I think the additional (albeit light) work for my triceps should keep me from stalling. Other than that, the difference is Rows vs. Power Cleans. Rows are great, but I'd recommend power cleans for the simple fact that power cleans will have carryover to deadlift and rows don't. Why you would need cable rows at all when you just did barbell rows for 3 heavy sets of 5 is beyond me.

Yep.

As I figured out immediately from reading between the lines and as the OP agreed with, he's not looking to be a bodybuilder. Your whole criticism started with you saying that SS doesn't build strength and size.

I never ever said that. It's cute that you continue to try to put words in my mouth though.

I said


"A workout that involves no shrugging movement, no calf raise, no bicep or tricep isolation, side or rear delt movements, no horizontal pull, only 4.5 sets for chest in an entire week, and only really hits the upper body once every 5 days is not for size."


You can build strength and size on Starting Strength... but you sure as hell won't be building size as optimally as you could be.

This is not some routine someone posted that I'm critiquing or even some detailed write-up I'm analyzing. This is based on MY OWN RESULTS. I've put on lots of weight, most of it muscle, including in all the spots you've said aren't hit well with this program. I know it works for both strength and size. Is it possible I would have gotten better results with another program? Absolutely, but I would be retarded to stop doing something that has given me better results than I thought possible and fast to boot.

Also you obviously didn't properly read the OP. He said he was looking for a workout that would help him gain MUSCLE AND STRENGTH.


The thing about noob lifters is that lots of stuff works. But some stuff works better. And Starting Strength (vanilla) is not that good for size.

The reason I said IDEAL in caps is because the poster is pretty much exactly like me. He wants to get bigger and stronger, he doesn't have any deadlines that are immediate, and he doesn't seem to want to deal with minutia like are his rear delts in balance.

Because spending 5 minutes on rear delts twice a week is so hard.

/sarcasm.

Let's go worst case scenario. You acknowledge that SS is great for strength, even better for strength than JasonDB's because it has 3x5 which allows for more rest between sets so weight can be increased more often instead of having workout time be a limiting factor.

So far so good, I can actually agree to this part. But since Jason is explicit that his routine is for BODYBUILDERS, why wouldn't I be?

People stay on SS generally for 3 to 9 months. Let's split the difference and say 6. Let's say he doesn't gain a single pound (not likely) and only gains a ton of strength. He then has 12 months to apply the LARGE amounts of strength he would have built to a mass building program, which would yield even better results than if he had started on another program which didn't get him as strong. No matter how you slice it, SS is the best route for him to take.

You seem to be under the impression that bodybuilding programs aren't built on progressive overload. You DO get stronger doing bodybuilding routines as well.

The 'strength base' argument may or may not have some legitimacy. It is unproven, and then there is common sense telling us that if you want to be a bodybuilder.... then you do a bodybuilding routine. You DO what you want to get better at. You don't play badminton to get better at tennis.

But the gap between strength and size in a novice lifter certainly isn't actually that big. But when you're not even properly hitting certain muscles at all... then size will not be so great.

You're welcome to have the last word. This debate has been fun but I think I'll let the OP have his thread back now.

That's good. I feel you've embarrassed yourself enough.

[bravo96]

It's pretty factual that hitting a muscle directly > expecting exercises that don't even focus on it to do the job




Actually the benefit of training muscles that vanilla SS neglects is still there. I wouldn't say extra frequency trumps this.



I never said the word better in the bit you quoted.


I said, If you think that military press is enough for the triceps, the side delt, the traps and the upper chest, then you are dumb.

The majority of the population would see more bicep growth from doing chins AND curls than just chins.



I never said that the bench press and the military press are inferior exercises. They are fine. But you're going to need more than that if you want to fully hit your triceps, upper chest, side and rear delts.


Trying to put words into the opponents mouth is a typical tactic of someone who's starting to realize that their argument is falling apart.




At least the bold is kinda half right.



You shouldn't need a man's permission to do vertical pulls in a program. It should be there on default.



I think it is better to include some assistance work immediately, rather than to have nobody initially include it, and then 90% of them later realize they do.




So back squats > front squats... because you use more weight?

Guess everyone should start doing quarter squats then.






Does overhead press hit the triceps? Sure it does. So does Karate. But you wouldn't rely on that to get big triceps. It hits the triceps, but it doesn't hit them enough. Direct work does though.


When you look at the movement of the bar, and the function of the side delts, you'll see that overhead pressing doesn't fully hit them either.




Yep.




I never ever said that. It's cute that you continue to try to put words in my mouth though.

I said


"A workout that involves no shrugging movement, no calf raise, no bicep or tricep isolation, side or rear delt movements, no horizontal pull, only 4.5 sets for chest in an entire week, and only really hits the upper body once every 5 days is not for size."


You can build strength and size on Starting Strength... but you sure as hell won't be building size as optimally as you could be.




Also you obviously didn't properly read the OP. He said he was looking for a workout that would help him gain MUSCLE AND STRENGTH.


The thing about noob lifters is that lots of stuff works. But some stuff works better. And Starting Strength (vanilla) is not that good for size.



Because spending 5 minutes on rear delts twice a week is so hard.

/sarcasm.



So far so good, I can actually agree to this part. But since Jason is explicit that his routine is for BODYBUILDERS, why wouldn't I be?




You seem to be under the impression that bodybuilding programs aren't built on progressive overload. You DO get stronger doing bodybuilding routines as well.

The 'strength base' argument may or may not have some legitimacy. It is unproven, and then there is common sense telling us that if you want to be a bodybuilder.... then you do a bodybuilding routine. You DO what you want to get better at. You don't play badminton to get better at tennis.

But the gap between strength and size in a novice lifter certainly isn't actually that big. But when you're not even properly hitting certain muscles at all... then size will not be so great.





That's good. I feel you've embarrassed yourself enough.

haha logic wins

[DetMatthews]

I'm doing being confrontational. I'm confident reasonable people reading our posts will come to the right conclusion.

Relevant to the OP, he doesn't need something that's "optimal" for size. He has ~18 months to gain 25 pounds. That's not even 1.5 pounds a month, and no matter which routine he does, he's not going to be on it for the entire 18 months. Better to do SS with the inevitable muscle gains that come along with it, then take that strength to something more hypertrophy-specific if it doesn't give him the size he's looking for. But he's not trying to be a bodybuilder.

[NZninja101]

You're welcome to have the last word. This debate has been fun but I think I'll let the OP have his thread back now.

...

I'm done being confrontational. I'm confident reasonable people reading our posts will come to the right conclusion.

Fixed (I assume)

Relevant to the OP, he doesn't need something that's "optimal" for size. He has ~18 months to gain 25 pounds. That's not even 1.5 pounds a month, and no matter which routine he does, he's not going to be on it for the entire 18 months. Better to do SS with the inevitable muscle gains that come along with it, then take that strength to something more hypertrophy-specific if it doesn't give him the size he's looking for. But he's not trying to be a bodybuilder.

Can OP do starting strength for a while and gain 25 pounds of lean body mass in 18 months? Probably. I just wanted to let him know that if he wanted to make the most of his time then there are more effective methods. Maybe he thinks that 25 pounds of LBM for a novice is really good. But assuming he hardly lifts then the figures are actually closer to



Year of Proper Training Potential Rate of Muscle Gain per Year
1 20-25 pounds (2 pounds per month)
2 10-12 pounds (1 pound per month)
3 5-6 pounds (0.5 pound per month)
4+ 2-3 pounds (not worth calculating)




http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...potential.html

[bravo96]

I'm doing being confrontational. I'm confident reasonable people reading our posts will come to the right conclusion.

Relevant to the OP, he doesn't need something that's "optimal" for size. He has ~18 months to gain 25 pounds. That's not even 1.5 pounds a month, and no matter which routine he does, he's not going to be on it for the entire 18 months. Better to do SS with the inevitable muscle gains that come along with it, then take that strength to something more hypertrophy-specific if it doesn't give him the size he's looking for. But he's not trying to be a bodybuilder.

no it isnt, whats with your starting strength hard on? your acting like he cant get strong without it.

your right he doesnt need something thats optimal for size, that doesnt mean he must go in the complete opposite direction and do SS which is **** for physique development. there are plenty of other good alternatives to starting strength you just cant seem to accept that.

[DetMatthews]

no it isnt, whats with your starting strength hard on? your acting like he cant get strong without it.

your right he doesnt need something thats optimal for size, that doesnt mean he must go in the complete opposite direction and do SS which is **** for physique development. there are plenty of other good alternatives to starting strength you just cant seem to accept that.

First, I'll address the additional mass thing. Yes, I'm sure he could put on a certain amount of muscle in a year if he was meticulous with his calorie count and with his workouts and all that stuff. I've gained about 25 pounds already on SS. Is all of it muscle? Hell no, some of it is definitely fat. But no one says I'm fat. They all say how much more muscular and strong I've gotten. So I don't have a solid figure on how much muscle he could put on in a given amount of time, and that sure as hell is tailored to the individual. But you have to have a perfect storm of variables in place for that kind of thing to happen, and the OP doesn't seem like he wants something that he's going to have to focus on while he's at school. He wants a simple recipe. Mine is: Do SS and eat a lot. That's it. And if you gain 25 pounds of muscle in 18 months, I don't care what any number crunching web site tells me, you've done very well.

Second, I swear you guys are illiterate. I said, explicitly, that any of the beginner workouts mentioned are based in good training philosophy and all will work and should work well. My "starting strength hard on" comes from the fact that I've done it with great results. MY WHOLE POINT and the reason I kept this up is because NZNinja kept saying that SS was "chit for size".

I don't know why he kept arguing about "vanilla SS". You want to argue with extremists, ague with them, don't argue with me. I don't practice no assistance, I don't advocate no assistance, and I don't think anyone should view any training program with such strict boundaries. I add very minimal assistance, because I need very minimal assistance. If you need more, add more. That goes for SS or any program ever. No one should be so naive to say that any program is PERFECT for every individual and needs NO tailoring.

It's a forum, and I'm entitled to my opinion, especially when I back that opinion up with valid point after valid point. I also went into detail on why I think SS compares favorably with other programs. You guys are obviously entitled to your opinion, too, but you're taking this whole online forum thing a little too seriously. We're allowed to disagree, seriously, it's all good. There's no need for all this crap.

But again, my whole point was that I don't care if everyone on this entire forum PMs me and tells me that SS doesn't increase muscular size. Since I've started it I've been told that I am "super buff", "gotten intimidatingly big", "pecs have gotten ridiculous" (just last night), and my "traps have gotten bigger". I have gotten compliments from my entire extended family and many of my friends, as well as people at my gym. It is completely ridiculous to say that SS doesn't get you bigger at all.

I never said you can't get strong without it. I said it's one of the best routines for getting strong for a beginner, and that's one of the only things NZNinja and I agreed on.

When I said I was going to let you have the last word, I just meant I was going to stop defending SS. (Apparently I lied.) I still wanted to help the OP and get back to the original topic. That said, I'm officially retiring from this thread. If you want to argue I'm down to do it over PM, just not on here. And really, you guys are so uneducated about this topic that you have no idea when you're getting your ass handed to you in a debate. Anyone who says military press doesn't hit side delts hard loses any credibility he had.

[midcoastking33]

Strength progression is the same on SS and 5x5 however the latter will yield better size gains for a longer period of time for a slightly higher time investment

[NZninja101]

Second, I swear you guys are illiterate. I said, explicitly, that any of the beginner workouts mentioned are based in good training philosophy and all will work and should work well. My "starting strength hard on" comes from the fact that I've done it with great results. MY WHOLE POINT and the reason I kept this up is because NZNinja kept saying that SS was "chit for size".

It kind of is. Of course you'll still get bigger but there is a lack of volume on many body parts, as well as a lack of frequency on others.

I don't know why he kept arguing about "vanilla SS". You want to argue with extremists, ague with them, don't argue with me. I don't practice no assistance, I don't advocate no assistance, and I don't think anyone should view any training program with such strict boundaries. I add very minimal assistance, because I need very minimal assistance. If you need more, add more. That goes for SS or any program ever. No one should be so naive to say that any program is PERFECT for every individual and needs NO tailoring.

When you recommend Starting Strength with no explanation of specifics, then I think one would reasonably assume that they mean the core program, (which now includes chin ups fortunately).

It's a forum, and I'm entitled to my opinion, especially when I back that opinion up with valid point after valid point.

lol

I also went into detail on why I think SS compares favorably with other programs. You guys are obviously entitled to your opinion, too, but you're taking this whole online forum thing a little too seriously. We're allowed to disagree, seriously, it's all good. There's no need for all this crap.

I'll try to be more polite next time.

But again, my whole point was that I don't care if everyone on this entire forum PMs me and tells me that SS doesn't increase muscular size. Since I've started it I've been told that I am "super buff", "gotten intimidatingly big", "pecs have gotten ridiculous" (just last night), and my "traps have gotten bigger". I have gotten compliments from my entire extended family and many of my friends, as well as people at my gym. It is completely ridiculous to say that SS doesn't get you bigger at all.

I agree. Good thing I never said that.

I never said you can't get strong without it. I said it's one of the best routines for getting strong for a beginner, and that's one of the only things NZNinja and I agreed on.

When I said I was going to let you have the last word, I just meant I was going to stop defending SS. (Apparently I lied.) I still wanted to help the OP and get back to the original topic. That said, I'm officially retiring from this thread. If you want to argue I'm down to do it over PM, just not on here. And really, you guys are so uneducated about this topic that you have no idea when you're getting your ass handed to you in a debate. Anyone who says military press doesn't hit side delts hard loses any credibility he had.

It does hit it somewhat. But on its own it's not really generally enough for the lateral delt. Which is why 99% of bodybuilders do side raises and/or upright rows.