Overthinking training and diet...

[IronCharles]

You have avoided answering it and been very vague. I for one would like to know more about how this method has worked for you. Pics, measurements, strength progression....any info you care to provide.

Sorry, not going to trot out a bunch of stats, pics and videos to "defend" myself. That's not my style. If you want to think I've been lifting and wasting my time, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm thrilled with the progress I've made over the last few years, and don't feel the need to justify it to you.



You can be right, I'll be wrong, and please...... have the last word, so I don't have to respond to you any more!


vvvvvvvv

[induced_drag]

Sorry, not going to trot out a bunch of stats, pics and videos to "defend" myself. That's not my style. If you want to think I've been lifting and wasting my time, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm thrilled with the progress I've made over the last few years, and don't feel the need to justify it to you.

Wow guy... .You are feeling quite defensive. I am not asking you to "defend" anything. Just share how your methods have worked for you....in what ever manner you see fit. Maybe we can all lean something. We learn nothing if we dont share information.

If you care to live in your bubble....fine. Just puzzled as to why then you ask others to share their experiences and yet you dont participate. Hard to understand from here....

Dont justify to anyone but yourself....but sharing in a discussion is not justification of anything.....it is just sharing.

Merry Christmas.


[EDIT]
I just saw your edit....if you like being a child....fine. I will save you the response to all my threads of 2013 by adding to my sig:

And it's even harder for those of us who rely on our own testosterone and other hormones for muscle gain and fat loss....

That way you wont have to add that response to anything I post.

[2nd_chance]

You still seem to be insisting that those of us that count find it to be difficult, or a chore. I personally don't.

I've been a calorie counter for 4 years and it take me about 5 minutes a day to tap it all into my iphone app.

[2nd_chance]

Never tracked a thing in my life. I would gladly post updated pics prior to my heart problems. I never took lifting videos but at 190ish I do have a raw dead of no straps and no belt of 495. I was just starting deads to. I benched 335 for 3 reps in January. I have done deads in the mid 5's. Also squatted over 500.

This isnt rocket science. I think tracking has to do more with personality type than being lazy.

That's because you are a freak of nature Myth!

[Getsum]

I've been a calorie counter for 4 years and it take me about 5 minutes a day to tap it all into my iphone app.

Very true and it's even easier if you tend to eat the same foods 'most' of the time. MyFitnessPal.com works great for me.

[billb7581]

Sorry, not going to trot out a bunch of stats, pics and videos to "defend" myself. That's not my style. If you want to think I've been lifting and wasting my time, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm thrilled with the progress I've made over the last few years, and don't feel the need to justify it to you.



You can be right, I'll be wrong, and please...... have the last word, so I don't have to respond to you any more!


vvvvvvvv

Aren't you the one always telling everyone else to quit making excuses? Isn't that precisely what you are doing here?

Eating all the meat you want and lifting heavy ain't going to work for most people... eating at a calculated deficit or surplus has to work, unless the laws of thermodynamics cease to exist in that person's body.

[oldsuperman]

Charles,

On the point above.....tracking is not just about being lean....it also applies to surplus and gaining.

If you think of trying to gain weight and LBM you ALWAYS want there to be a slight surplus of cals. EVERYDAY...day in and day out. This way, your body always has the fuel to grow. If done like you state....there are some days you are over, some under, some WAY over some way under. On the way over days, your body stores much of it as fat. On the way under days, your body may not build muscle in response to the training stimulus you provide working out, because it does not have the fuel. Simply getting protein is not the only part of the puzzle.

Doing it in a haphazard manner, in my opinion is MUCH less efficient then a sustained and planned daily surplus of +/- 200-250 cal (for a guy further along in their training). In the end you will gain less body fat and more muscle over the same period of time on a planned surplus. I have done this for as much as 5 months straight with very little fat gain, and increasing muscle steadily. I could watch the scale move every week like clockwork.


If your main goal is to gain mass, and you are not seeing the scale move on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, you are witnessing the inefficiencies of a shotgun approach to nutrition. How much weight have you gained in the last two weeks?....last two months?...

Nice post.

[Miranda]

imo people are comparing apples with oranges with the whole tracking vs not tracking thing.

1/ you diet and lose 15lbs eating a set amount of certain foods.
2/ you diet and lose 15lbs eating a set amount of the same foods and track your calories and macros.

in both cases, you are eating the same calories and macros. the only difference being that you tracked them in case #2. so does tracking matter? in that case, not in any other way that you have actual data of what and how much you ate.

for many, 'not tracking' doesn't mean they are eating the same amount of calories than if they did. that's what seems to be implied here.

for others, 'not tracking' can come close enough to make tracking an unnecessary tool. unless one is at a stage where tracking makes the cut between 'sufficient' and 'optimal' results . . . and where the difference between the two is something to worry about.

regardless, calories and macros do count whether you count them or not. you can't compare a pound of ice cream to a pound of chicken breast just because you don't [want to] know how many calories each contains.

[IronCharles]

Aren't you the one always telling everyone else to quit making excuses? Isn't that precisely what you are doing here?

Eating all the meat you want and lifting heavy ain't going to work for most people... eating at a calculated deficit or surplus has to work, unless the laws of thermodynamics cease to exist in that person's body.

I'm a natural ectomorph. I can eat everything in sight, and never get over 20% bodyfat. It's hard for me to keep muscle, unless I eat a lot. And that's also why eating close to maintenance is not beneficial for me. I certainly wouldn't recommend this for endos or mesos. And that's why I'm not saying it's the right way for everyone.

The onus is upon each individual to find out what works best for their own metabolism.

[induced_drag]

I'm a natural ectomorph. I can eat everything in sight, and never get over 20% bodyfat. It's hard for me to keep muscle, unless I eat a lot. And that's also why eating close to maintenance is not beneficial for me. I certainly wouldn't recommend this for endos or mesos. And that's why I'm not saying it's the right way for everyone.

The onus is upon each individual to find out what works best for their own metabolism.

Can not think of a better response then this....this way I am not arguing with you....I'll let you argue with one of the most well respected fitness and nutrition guys in the world. .

I think it's fundamentally overassumptive to typecast anyone at one of 3 points along a rather broad continuum of genetic capacity for achieving muscle gain and/or fat loss. However, I would not deny that this variance of genetic capacity for 'ease' of physical achievent does exist. The danger lies in making assumptions that you're on one of the extreme ends, & ultimately selling yourself short.

[Karl_Hungus]

The only guy with an outstanding physique that I have seen is Myth....and I have always said he is an anomaly. (hope he continues to be as well!).

Bodyhard. I seem to remember him saying that he doesn't track things ...

BTW ... I don't have a dog in this fight ... I am sure I would do things differently than I currently do if my primary goal was obtaining a bodybuilder's physique.

[induced_drag]

Bodyhard. I seem to remember him saying that he doesn't track things ...

BTW ... I don't have a dog in this fight ... I am sure I would do things differently than I currently do if my primary goal was obtaining a bodybuilder's physique.

Good one! No denying his physique for sure. No arguments from me on that one. (I was thinking of those that responded in this thread.).

However, if we do expand our search, I am thinking the vast majority of those with the best physiques all seem to plan their nutrition at some level. I am struggling to think of others that dont. (BH and Myth being two that eat instinctively very well) Would love to hear from others that have success with instinctive methods. It would be interesting to see if there are any correlations.

Or even better, see how a guy like BH or Myth would do if they switched to tracking! I know it was a HUGE difference for me....this earlier post in this thread shows the results of 3 months of training both ways for me. Same program....same weights only difference diet. This is only my experience though....I would like to hear others.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post998450783


I know I am not so lucky. I fully realize that I am blessed with many advantages to gaining muscle and strength....but maintaining a lean physique takes a lot of effort for me. My 'natural' state is one of a much more rounded physique. I would no doubt still be strong....but I would be probably 220+ if I just ate big and trained big. While that might be OK for some, it is not ANYTHING I desire.

Thanks to those that are making this a good discussion. I think there is always a chance to learn from what others have experienced. I certainly am open to listening to anyone's experiences.

(writing while dinner is cooking ....did I say Merry Christmas yet?! )

[EjnarKolinkar]

1/ you diet and lose 15lbs eating a set amount of certain foods.
2/ you diet and lose 15lbs eating a set amount of the same foods and track your calories and macros.

in both cases, you are eating the same calories and macros.

Option one "tracking by menu". I know a few lifters that are very successful with this option. Rough calculate macros only when changing goals and eat the same menu 6 days a week with a day off to eat whatever. No need to type that into a tracker. I did this to lose the water buffalo look. After a few years of it I was burned out.

Burnout of same old same old as much as goals was what, prompted me to switch to option two. I can definitely understand how a rinse and repeat eater would think a macro tracker belonged in the looney bin. I argued that in a few threads myself while tracking by menu.

[billb7581]

I'd say you are the exception and not the rule IC.. most people get fat if they eat whatever the hell they want.

I have to track because not tracking gave me a 1 way ticket to type 2 diabetesville.

[oldsuperman]

This isnt rocket science. I think tracking has to do more with personality type than being lazy.

It really is quite easy to figure out.

[IronCharles]

I'd say you are the exception and not the rule IC.. most people get fat if they eat whatever the hell they want.

Agreed, and that's why I can't say, "My way is the right way", because everyone gains and loses in different ways. Trying to speak in absolutes when it comes to diet and training is a fools errand, at best.


It's both a blessing and a curse for me. It's a blessing, because I can burn fat off quickly when I need to, with just minor adjustments in my food. But it's more of a challenge for me to put on (and keep on) quality mass, than it seems to be for others.

[evalala]

I think it is more about what you eat&do while being OCD or not, than about how/if you keep track of said actions.

[atgorgohome]

I only really track my cals and protein and sometimes fats.
Writing down every cal and gram of macros to a decimal place is too OCD for me.
My shoes get thrown all over the place
My non consecutive lift days are wed Fri sun

[atgorgohome]

Oh BTW
Mirin master roshi beard so fkn hard
My new porn

[Mattshaw1988]

Is it possible to put too much effort into micromanaging how we eat and how we work out? Are we stifling our growth by falling into the trap of "paralysis by analysis?"


In the years I've been a member of this site, I have seen a wide variety of training and diet strategies. Some people like to count every calorie, time every meal, record and analyze every rep, set, and pound of iron moved. They have to train in certain clothes, at a certain temperature, do each body part on a predetermined day of the week, drink an exact amount of fluids, take a particular pre- or post-workout supplement. Other people simply eat a lot of meat, take a good multi, and lift heavy.

Now, the funny thing about it is, there are drastically different results manifested from BOTH camps. There are folks who love to micromanage everything to the nth detail, who are huge and ripped. Yet, there are those who put just as much effort into it, and years later, they look almost exactly the same. And the same applies to the "casual" lifters. Some look like they haven't trained a day, after many years in the gym, while others have made mind-boggling progress.



So, my questions to you are:

1) Do you get better results by putting more thought into every detail?

2) If not, then why not? Is this yet another case of "genetics trump everything"?

3) Or is it possible that "mind over matter" (I believe I will get big and lean, and the body follows the mind) is at work here?



Related questions:

1) Is micromanaging a result of OCD thinking (meaning, are the same folks who need to control every detail of training and diet the same folks who are arranging bottles by size on the bathroom counter, don't let their foods touch on the plate, etc)?

2) And are the "eat big, sleep big, lift big and forget about it" group that simplistic in the rest of their lives? Do they toss their shoes in a pile, don't care which side the toilet paper rolls off, and so forth?

3) Is it possible that wanting to control every detail about our fitness is guilt related? If we do everything perfectly, then it's not our fault if we don't progress. I mean, what more could I do? I ate right, lifted right, got optimal sleep, etc. I guess it just wasn't meant to be. And conversely, if we are more casual and basic about our training, but don't succeed, then we can always blame it on not having the time to bother with all the little details, or not having the right genetics, etc.

What I'm getting at here is, is the way we approach our training directly related to our life outlook and habits in general? And does it really matter either way? Or is it just those with good genes (or strong minds) who get big and ripped, regardless of methods?





Thoughts?

For me it's a case of I eat what I want when I want and train when I want.

For this reason I take a protein powder to keep my intake high and also take a multi and fish oil as I see these as maintaining health regardless of lifting.

I always take the healthier option but also mix up some unhealthy treats in the meantime .

I'm a casual lifter that has no interest in competing .

I've been lifting 8 months and how I look considering I'm not one of these OCD types is pretty impressive as I do get the remarks etc etc and I can see in my own mirror.

Everything in moderation in life , I have a family and other interest and hobbies than to count every last calorie gram of carbs down to the tee each day.

I lift I eat healthy I drink plenty .

I do believe though I have pretty good genetics when it comes to building muscle and overall fitness.

[ArchAngel'73]

I think it is more about what you eat&do while being OCD or not, than about how/if you keep track of said actions.

Thank-you for your divine 18 year old wisdom in the over 35 section after bumping a thread that's nearly a year old and dead.
Please, come back again to share your well thought out ideas.

[Tyrbolift]

Thank-you for your divine 18 year old wisdom in the over 35 section after bumping a thread that's nearly a year old and dead.
Please, come back again to share your well thought out ideas.

It was a good convo worthy of revisiting. since most people only go back one or two pages on each forum.

[ArchAngel'73]

It was a good convo worthy of revisiting. since most people only go back one or two pages on each forum.

More than one way to get the job done.
/thread.

Posting is kinda like jaywalking, look before you do it.