Overthinking training and diet...

[Vanguard1965]

Charles,

On the point above.....tracking is not just about being lean....it also applies to surplus and gaining.

If you think of trying to gain weight and LBM you ALWAYS want there to be a slight surplus of cals. EVERYDAY...day in and day out. This way, your body always has the fuel to grow. If done like you state....there are some days you are over, some under, some WAY over some way under. On the way over days, your body stores much of it as fat. On the way under days, your body may not build muscle in response to the training stimulus you provide working out, because it does not have the fuel. Simply getting protein is not the only part of the puzzle.

Doing it in a haphazard manner, in my opinion is MUCH less efficient then a sustained and planned daily surplus of +/- 200-250 cal (for a guy further along in their training). In the end you will gain less body fat and more muscle over the same period of time on a planned surplus. I have done this for as much as 5 months straight with very little fat gain, and increasing muscle steadily. I could watch the scale move every week like clockwork.


If your main goal is to gain mass, and you are not seeing the scale move on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, you are witnessing the inefficiencies of a shotgun approach to nutrition. How much weight have you gained in the last two weeks?....last two months?...

Very well said ID, we are definately on the same page here as far as what is optimal for best results.

[EB68]

I think alot of people greatly overestimate the amount of lean mass they actually carry, and underestimate how much fat they actually carry. That is one reason I plan to cut the fat to less than 10% and stay between 8/12% from here on out. That way I know how much fat to muscle ratio I have.
I think most here who have never cut to 10 percent would be shocked at how light they would be. Just my .02

[Big_Sky_Guy]

are you talking about doing things 'by feel' vs 'having a plan'? i don't see how having a plan would be 'overthinking' things.

i've had results with both, and in general i see myself very much as a 'by feel' person. i only execute plans when i 'feel' they are needed

the plan might be relatively detailed, but that doesn't mean it's OCD. that would mean you don't really trust the plan, and stare at it and fiddle with irrelevant details as a way to do away your fear (that the plan won't work). OCD is in your head, not in the 'details'.

I don't see having a plan as overthinking either. Have done DeFrankos WSSB, 5x5, and as much of a Westside as I could figure out. All have been very successfully over the years. The people that plan-hop every 4 weeks because they are 'not seeing results', or those who won't make any changes to a plan even though they are injured or the programming is exacerbating an issue because the 'have to follow the program' is the level of overthinking I see as detrimental.

I think that's the wrong question. Tracking macro's or tracking your workouts is not the big chore or massive amount of work its being made out to be. It's not hard, takes little time and as has been shown by others in this thread to make a big difference in their results, so it's not 80% more work for 20% more effectiveness. I would argue its 20% more work for 80% more effectiveness.

See bold- The 80/20 is about competition shape. Thought that was fairly clear to most on here. Eating reasonably close to cal and macros can be done fairly easily by most people. Battening down the hatches to go below 10% is not that simple for a good portion of the population. Hell, staying below 15% takes effort for me as we have a very busy life.

[EjnarKolinkar]

It all boils down to what your goals are, I guess. It seems a lot here enjoy being lean, for the sake of being lean. I'm not one of them. I'm very goal oriented, and my goal is to put on as much mass as possible, and eventually compete on stage.... preferably sooner than later. I won't be one of the guys you see at every show that people wonder, "What's that guy doing onstage?". And so, as far as my long term goals go, it's counter productive for me to be anywhere near a state that I could potentially be leaving something on the table. I know from experience that it's hard, if not impossible to put on quality mass while eating at a deficit (for the natural lifter). So, I am glad for the cutting experience I've gained, and I know that learning what my body requires to lean out is invaluable when it comes time to get serious...... but in all honesty? I wish I had those cutting months back, because I know I would be that much further ahead in my ultimate mass gains.

After enjoying reading this thread I identify with these statements the most, although I take a slightly different approach. I lost 95 pounds, 20 of it generally reducing eating, and 75 on a Keto diet. I never tracked macros or calories in that process. I had the mentality that it was unnecessary, time consuming, and the kind of thing that would lead me lead to a food disorder.

This year I decided my progress was too slow and that I needed to apply myself to do what more successful people do. Stop being smart, stubborn, doing it my way, and just copycat. A long time fan of weightlifting related sports I have read much on the subject over the last twenty years. I added to this by studying successful peoples habits, and compare those to the research available. I found a few pertinent facts that are just about universal.

1. Most successful bodybuilders (not all strength athletes) track macros.

2. Lifters that gain too much weight bulking, burn through too much muscle in deficit diets.

3. Lifters that eat tiny surpluses like 100-200 cal to keep a perfect six pack don't make much gains. (Natural lifters at or near genetic potential appear to have little to lose doing this, and many do)

Like IronCharles I have no desire to leave any muscle behind because I was too vain, too early. I add to that I am not willing to waste time and muscle on long deficit dieting. The actual tracking is not very time consuming, its the trial and error at setting the macro as high as you can without excess fat gains that takes the time. The initial two weeks learning to be fast with the macro tracking software is slow. After that initial setup its a few minutes a day.

I eat freestyle most of the time, with the exception of standard stuff I eat all the time that I enjoy most. I logged into MFP last night at 11:59 and logged a unplanned day in 3 minutes. I was way low on fats and carbs due to a long project. 3 cups of milk and a special dark bar fixed some of that and I went to bed. This type of situation was a surprise to me when it first happened months ago. I was tracking macros to avoid excess fat while building muscle. I found at least one or two days a week I needed to hit the kitchen at night after dinner fixing a deficit in macros for the day. Eating 300-500 calories under two days a week is no way to make gains.

I probably average 30 minutes a week on the project of tracking. I think its worth it especially in comparison to the 4-5 hours with my weights. People that are absolute creatures of habit could probably get away without tracking, I can't. I like to have a slice of Pizza at Costco when I feel like it.

IIFYM? I don't really look at it that way. I look at making my macros, come hell or high water, and not eating like a robot. I don't live on pop tarts and protein powder, but I am not scared of them either. If I am over 200 cals I don't get all wobbly and worried, and try to go 200 under the next day. When a day is over its over. After banging my head on the wall for years sorting this out, I find that ironwill2008 has posted roughly the same advice 28,000 times. Would I have just listened to him 4 years ago? Probably not. If you have an excuses like all of mine, and your an experienced lifter, I wonder if you are leaving something on the table that would be worth 30 minutes of your time a week? Blowing it up into something more than that is all in your attitude, at least it was all in mine. But I have to do things the hard way, and spin my wheels a long time before I buy into something, and stop being stubborn.


In addition to all of that I am worn from 20 years in the trades and carrying around an extra 10 pounds I dont need makes my knees hurt.



Cliffs:

Did not used to track macros, excuse was too time consuming.
Scroll past noob, read 28,000 of ironwill2008's posts instead about tracking macros.
I track macros now to gain.
Goal is to build muscle consistently.
Not waste time and muscle on long deficits to get rid of too much fat.

[IronCharles]

Well....you have to suck it up and be hungry then..... Losing weight is not easy.

No, I don't. I'm not losing weight.

The first statement, Certain foods will make you fat if you eat the same amount of them, is incorrect from a calorie comparison standpoint. Now if you are talking calorie density and measuring by volume....well then of course....a cup of butter has a lot more calories then a cup of popcorn. I dont think people think of 'volume' when measuring food consumption but rather calorie count, so you confuse me.

My statement is NOT false. The average person eats until he is full. If he eats a pound of ice cream every day, he will get fatter than a person who eats a pound of chicken breast every day instead. Why? because there are more calories in a pound of ice cream that there are in a pound of chicken.

Doing it in a haphazard manner, in my opinion is MUCH less efficient then a sustained and planned daily surplus of +/- 200-250 cal (for a guy further along in their training). * *In the end you will gain less body fat and more muscle over the same period of time on a planned surplus.

I would like to see the studies that prove that eating a couple hundred calories over maintenance (and that is assuming no margin for error and no mistakes too high or too low) will pack on more muscle tissue than eating 500-1000 calories over. I see that inferred a lot here. I've yet to read the verifying clinical test results.

Very well said ID, we are definately on the same page here as far as what is optimal for best results.

That still involves weighing food, being hungry, or restricting the foods I like to eat. Trying to eat every single day at 200 calories over the line between lbm gain and fat loss (or less) is great.... if that's what you guys like doing. It's not something I'll be doing, until it's time to cut again. Also, I know for a fact that I can move more iron when I eat at a good surplus, than I can when eating at a deficit, or at maintenance levels. And everybody knows more weight lifted = more growth.

3. Lifters that eat tiny surpluses like 100-200 cal to keep a perfect six pack don't make much gains.

I agree with this statement, and would prefer to err on the side of excess, than potentially deny myself any essential nutritional building blocks.

[AndrewR770]

one thing that i've learned from long-term commitment is perspective. you need *time* to understand that the longer you're at it, the less relevant small slips are in the grand scheme of things. but you have to train long enough to see the big picture.

Oh, I REALLY like this statement, and it's so very true. I think a big problem with people trying to "get into shape" is that they start on a regimen, slip up after a short while, and then abandon the effort because it seems like a major impediment. I know I've made many, many such excuses in the past, but after 9 months on this lifestyle change, I can see the wisdom in the above quote.

As for the OP, I fall in between the two philosophies at the moment. I track my lifting with religious dedication simply because it's easy to do on my tablet and because it makes my lifting more efficient with planning and execution (I don't have to guess at what weight to put on the bar, I check my logs). Watching my detailed progress is also excellent motivation for me and highlights when I might be lagging or requrie a change in rest/routine/etc.

As for diet, however, I am a little limited where I am in terms of being able to choose what I eat (not prison, deployed military! similar...). So, I haven't been tracking my diet too closely -- I know what I need to eat and not eat, and I am going on the fly. I keep a rough mental tally in my head each day, though it's obviously not terribly accurate. When I return home, I intend to plan and track my diet in greater detail. Again, it will make it easier, not harder, because instead of guesswork, I can just look at my plan.

[IronCharles]

^^^ Thanks for your service, and much respect for making the best out of the situation you are in. It's hard enough to get everything right when you can control everything, and that much more difficult when you have to make do with what's available.

[acrawlingchaos]

No, I don't. I'm not losing weight.

WHEN you decide to drop weight, you will have to hit a deficit... and it will probably suck regardless of what cutting method you use.

My statement is NOT false. The average person eats until he is full. If he eats a pound of ice cream every day, he will get fatter than a person who eats a pound of chicken breast every day instead. Why? because there are more calories in a pound of ice cream that there are in a pound of chicken.

Extreme examples are not helpful. We all know that you can not consume copious amounts of calories when losing weight. Counting calories or not, you can't down a pound of ice cream daily. Those that count have to hit their macro quota, not just hit their caloric limit.

On a cut, NO FOOD WILL MAKE YOU FAT, provided you stay with in your macro and caloric guidelines.

I would like to see the studies that prove that eating a couple hundred calories over maintenance (and that is assuming no margin for error and no mistakes too high or too low) will pack on more muscle tissue than eating 500-1000 calories over. I see that inferred a lot here. I've yet to read the verifying clinical test results.

I think his comment here is based upon what is biologically possible for lean mass gain.

We figure that a novice can put muscle on much quicker than most (up to 20 pounds a year). This is under 2 pounds a month. A 500 calorie surplus will add 4 pounds a month and a 1000 calorie surplus is about 8 pound gain in a month. This will mean some fat gain. If you are not a novice, and only adding 4-8 pounds of lean mass a year, I can pretty much guarantee that you are going to develop excessive fat stores (until you plateau).

There is evidence to suggest that excessive fat stores can be detrimental to increasing lean mass, and it can effect performance.

That still involves weighing food, being hungry, or restricting the foods I like to eat. Trying to eat every single day at 200 calories over the line between lbm gain and fat loss (or less) is great.... if that's what you guys like doing. It's not something I'll be doing, until it's time to cut again. Also, I know for a fact that I can move more iron when I eat at a good surplus, than I can when eating at a deficit, or at maintenance levels. And everybody knows more weight lifted = more growth.

You still seem to be insisting that those of us that count find it to be difficult, or a chore. I personally don't.

TBH, I feel stronger and more alert without excessive carbs and without an excessive intake.

[EB68]

Carrying extra weight causes your estrogen levels to rise, and this is counterproductive to building muscle. I ate 1,000 calories over maintenance for 5 months and put on 30 pounds, now that I have stripped most of the fat from that mistake it is obvious that no more than 5 or 6 pounds of the gain was muscle and the rest was fat. The way I see it if I add weight slowly with minimal fat gain, then the cutting will be much easier and for a shorter period next go around and this should leave more time for slowly building muscle.

[ljimd]

Carrying extra weight causes your estrogen levels to rise, and this is counterproductive to building muscle. I ate 1,000 calories over maintenance for 5 months and put on 30 pounds, now that I have stripped most of the fat from that mistake it is obvious that no more than 5 or 6 pounds of the gain was muscle and the rest was fat. The way I see it if I add weight slowly with minimal fat gain, then the cutting will be much easier and for a shorter period next go around and this should leave more time for slowly building muscle.

Key point many fail to recognize. Many times the resultant LBM gain is less than your example.

[induced_drag]

...
I agree with this statement, and would prefer to err on the side of excess, than potentially deny myself any essential nutritional building blocks.

Charles,

You need to take an honest look and realize that you are NOT doing as you describe above. For at least the past 7 or 8 months (probably over a year) I have heard you espouse to following this type of program. If you were eating above maintance every day, you would have gained a significant amount of weight.

Doing as I described, (the 200-250cal planned surplus) you would be up 15-25lbs.

I dont recall seeing you posting that your weight has risen that much. Looking at your bodyspace....from March of 11 to march of 12, your scale went up 5lbs. You are fooling yourself to think you can accurately eat a surplus every day. If you took the time to plan and track, you would see you are all over the place.

That is fine and OK if that is the effort you desire to put forward. But to continue to kid yourself and act as if it is really as productive as you think is just not being honest with yourself.

You are not eating as much as you think....or the scale would be moving on a regular basis. You have to assume that some days you are well over, and others well under. This is NOT nearly as productive as eating a planned surplus EVERY DAY. I know you are very resistant to this idea.

Again....thats OK if you dont feel like bothering with doing it. But you continually seem to want to justify that your method is just as good for those guys that are not concerned with "keeping abs year round."...etc. Sorry bud...it is not. But if you take the time to do it....you actually can keep abs....AND bulk....and gain more mass in the process.

[acrawlingchaos]

^^^^ This is why I could NEVER gain! I would "eat and eat and eat" and never gain. Well... I was all over the place eating at a deficit more often than not. I plateaued quickly and was obviously eating enough to just maintain.

[Bo_Flecks]

I can't imagine Bo_Flecks was eating pizza and Chick-fil-A with his family every night before he got on stage and brought home his trophy.

You are exactly right, sir!

Contest prep and dieting down for aesthetics are not even in the same universe. Contest prep places several parameters on a cut that general dieting does not have and it takes A LOT more analysis to get it right.

You have to do your best to guestimate your actual LBM, and then time you cut just right so you hit your target body fat at exactly the right time, so that you can peak at the exact moment you step on stage. There is no thumb nailing this. Either you get it right, or you don't. You don't want several years of training going for naught because you missed your peak.

Once your body fat gets below 8% or so, the amount of calories you can take in to keep the fat loss moving is very restricted. Eating a bowl of icecream at this time would have been murder for me. My goal was to get the biggest bulk of food in me as possible, and still maintain my calorie deficit. When you are at near starvation body fat levels, food becomes as much a mental thing as a physical thing.

And so, as far as my long term goals go, it's counter productive for me to be anywhere near a state that I could potentially be leaving something on the table. I know from experience that it's hard, if not impossible to put on quality mass while eating at a deficit (for the natural lifter).

I am right with you here.

I am on a post competition mass gaining phase and I am VERY comfortably buttered over. But that does not mean I am not being analytical about what I am doing with my training and nutrition to make sure I meet my goal this year.

As a Masters competitor, I cannot afford to add any more fat than is necessary to get the job done. The last thing I want is to have to be on an extended cut to prep for my next show. The more unnecessary fat I add, the longer I have to cut. The longer the cut, the more catabolism I risk. It also wastes valuable time that I cannot spend attempting to gain muscle. As far as I know, I have never gained an ounce of muscle on a calorie deficit.

Catabolism is going to happen on a contest cut. Count on it. But there are things you can do to minimize it. Not having to cut for 20+ weeks is an important thing.

My records show that I stepped on stage completely shredded at 173lbs this year. I plan on taking the stage at somewhere between 178 and 180lbs next year. I only plan on cutting for 12 weeks. So I need to be very careful about how I allow my body to put on that weight.

Winning my classes next year is my goal. I do not see a way to meet that goal without being very methodical about it.

[ArchAngel'73]

This is like a call out thread now...gotta steal a line from my buds AC and cmoore, I got no dog in this fight.

There is more than 1 way to skin a cat folks.
My motto is the best program is the one you're going to actually do, meaning you must enjoy it or chances are you'll quit entirely.

Happy holidays!

[Brad805]

Such a great thread for a noob like me. Nothing to add for obvious reasons, but I wanted to thank you all and say



MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[TCO76]

Me @ 6 months ago. just eating whatever i thought was healthy. Doing cardio. Pre bb.com.........

This is me about 2 weeks ago..

[TCO76]

Ill take anal and semi-OCD anyday....

[induced_drag]

This is like a call out thread now...gotta steal a line from my buds AC and cmoore, I got no dog in this fight.

There is more than 1 way to skin a cat folks.
My motto is the best program is the one you're going to actually do, meaning you must enjoy it or chances are you'll quit entirely.

Happy holidays!

Very true. Just want to be clear that I am not trying to get into a pissing match. At times I may come off as seeming like so, but it can be hard to restrain my passion about this topic. As you can tell, I have come to feel very strong about the impact of nutrition. My excitement and passion for it can make me seem pushy I am sure. I do not mean it in this way..... really just trying to help and share the profoundly simple yet effective method.

Best of luck to anyone and their goals...and respect to all. We all have different goals and different amounts of dedication we are willing to put fourth to achieve them. That makes 100% sense.

Now I am off to workout! Nice to be able to workout in your own home

[Bo_Flecks]

This is like a call out thread now...

Hum... I don't see it that way at all.

I see guys who are very passionate about bodybuilding expressing their viewpoints... well... rather passionately.

[highiso]

People who are passionate about nutrition and working out aren't OCD, they're bodybuilders.

Just a little progress update from someone who tracks to the gram when cutting time comes. This is my second bulk but my first time winging it. I feel that I have enough experience with nutrition that I can get away with it. Who knows it may backfire, I'm just trying to enjoy the holidays, I'll buckle down sometime in February.

[acrawlingchaos]

I have decided to take the same dedicated route Bo_Flecks and Cmoore have.

After my last 12 week cut, I had dropped 20 pounds and was "relatively lean". I then decided to pursue a bulk and gained 10 pounds in 4 months. While not a significant amount of weight gain for the time frame, I noticed I had put on at least 5 pounds of fat.

I decided to look further into it (book work). I believe now that the best route for me is to become VERY lean now, and instead of bulking, move directly into a reverse diet. I believe with careful planning, I can increase my maintenance level significantly, which in the long run will allow me to eat and more and be lean. I don't want to be able to maintain 10% at 2200 calories, I want to do it at 2700 calories (without the increased cardio). With careful planning with detailed metabolic manipulation. I think this is possible.



Additionally, certain personal goals have dictated that this is the most appropriate course of action.
. I still love bodyweight exercises. I believe I will have my best progress with these at a lower bodyweight level, and I will be able to better progress with them with a slower controlled weight increase.

. Helping others with their fitness/nutrition goals is something I intend on making a living off of. I am a CPT now, and pursuing my AS in exercise science. If I intend on selling someone a philosophy, I want to be able to use the most up to date information and research available.... and I want to be able to back it up with personal experience.

[Getsum]

My statement is NOT false. The average person eats until he is full. If he eats a pound of ice cream every day, he will get fatter than a person who eats a pound of chicken breast every day instead. Why? because there are more calories in a pound of ice cream that there are in a pound of chicken.

I agree with the point IC is making right here. The volume of food is greater with the right choices and and there's no reason to feel hungry. It takes more time to prepare the meals but it is worth the effort.

[Miranda]

just wanted to add that posting 'progress' pictures to support the benefits of a given method is pretty meaningless.

to disprove a statement, you would have to do a replicate study and account for all other variables. then you manipulate the one you are looking at (tracking calories and macros).

but you can't be the exact same person at the first and 2nd study. you can't go back in time and undo what you did the first time around.

consistency over time is a lot bigger indicator of 'success' than anything else.

i used to be a lot more meticulous about diet and training five years ago than i am now. yet i look a lot 'better' now than back then. that has little to do with tracking and counting and recording all workouts, nor does it mean that 'method' did not work.

[induced_drag]

just wanted to add that posting 'progress' pictures to support the benefits of a given method is pretty meaningless.

to disprove a statement, you would have to do a replicate study and control all other variables, expect the one you are looking at (tracking calories and macros).

but you can't be the exact same person at the first and 2nd study. you can't go back in time and undo what you did the first time around.

While true..... you can look at this in an anecdotal manner.

Look at the pics of the guys that do track and plan, look at their results. Look at the results of those that do not track and plan. I am waiting for someone to come in this thread with a physique that trumps some of the posters who have expressed what a difference tracking and planning has made for them.

Now if this thread were full of guys that dont track and plan, but yet they made Cmoore, BoFlecks or Iso look like puny amateurs......it might be pause for further consideration. But we have not seen that. The only guy with an outstanding physique that I have seen is Myth....and I have always said he is an anomaly. (hope he continues to be as well!).

Also want to give props to the guys in the process of changing. Some AWESOME transformations in progress here. Keep it up!

Taken as a whole....I think there is a powerful message in this thread. In my opinion the guys with the best physiques all have one thing in common.... Despite vastly different training routines, (frequency, volume..etc) they all have very similar views on nutrition.

Best of luck to all....you know how I feel!

[highiso]

just wanted to add that posting 'progress' pictures to support the benefits of a given method is pretty meaningless.

to disprove a statement, you would have to do a replicate study and account for all other variables. then you manipulate the one you are looking at (tracking calories and macros).

but you can't be the exact same person at the first and 2nd study. you can't go back in time and undo what you did the first time around.

consistency over time is a lot bigger indicator of 'success' than anything else.

i used to be a lot more meticulous about diet and training five years ago than i am now. yet i look a lot 'better' now than back then. that has little to do with tracking and counting and recording all workouts, nor does it mean that 'method' did not work.

Youre right. What was i thinking by posting progress pics in a training & diet thread. Let me get right on deleting that.

[IronCharles]

This is like a call out thread now...gotta steal a line from my buds AC and cmoore, I got no dog in this fight.

There is more than 1 way to skin a cat folks.

Yeah, I was hoping it would be more about why folks use certain methods, and less about "you're doing it wrong". Not everybody has the same goals.

Looking at your bodyspace....from March of 11 to march of 12, your scale went up 5lbs.

I can't even remember the last time I updated my BodySpace. And I may have changed my weight listing 4 or 5 times over the last 4 years.

Look at the pics of the guys that do track and plan, look at their results. Look at the results of those that do not track and plan.

In order for this to be a good judge of success, a person would have to have at least a pic a week, in the same pose, for years, to show any accurate effects. And even then, pics can be manipulated for certain effects (flexed, unflexed, pumped, unpumped, lighting, angles, Photoshop, etc). Not all of us take a lot of pics. It would be irresponsible to say that one way is better than another based upon a couple of photographs.

[Brackneyc]

Yeah, I was hoping it would be more about why folks use certain methods, and less about "you're doing it wrong". Not everybody has the same goals.

IC, you are a funny funny man. Lower your expectations at once.

[Miranda]

While true..... you can look at this in an anecdotal manner.

of course you can use anecdotal evidence, but that is prone to subjectivity and confirmation bias.

you only see the 'results' you want to see and discard the ones you don't ('an anomaly'). plus the sample you're looking at is likely to be self-selected. that is, people who've had 'success' with a given method are more likely to post about it than people who haven't.

there are a shtton of variables you have to look at, including genetics. that little bit that determines how you respond to the things you do. professional bodybuilders are likely to have a lot better genetics than recreational lifters.

a 'better' starting point combined with 'better' responses will yield 'better' results, than an 'average' starting point combined with 'average' responses which yield 'average' results.

that doesn't mean recreational lifters cannot apply methodology and get results with it, but they aren't going to look like professional bodybuilders. so it's a bit like comparing apples and oranges.

none of which means that i think counting calories is 'overthinking' one's diet. lol.

[ArchAngel'73]

Very true. Just want to be clear that I am not trying to get into a pissing match. At times I may come off as seeming like so, but it can be hard to restrain my passion about this topic. As you can tell, I have come to feel very strong about the impact of nutrition. My excitement and passion for it can make me seem pushy I am sure. I do not mean it in this way..... really just trying to help and share the profoundly simple yet effective method.

Best of luck to anyone and their goals...and respect to all. We all have different goals and different amounts of dedication we are willing to put fourth to achieve them. That makes 100% sense.

Now I am off to workout! Nice to be able to workout in your own home

I've just finished fukking around in the gym the last 2 months after my last comp...drifting...training when I felt like it and only if the conditions were ideal-like "normal people" would.
I admit, it felt good until the truth came out for me...I don't like normal people and strive not to be one.
That's enough of that!

Hum... I don't see it that way at all.

I see guys who are very passionate about bodybuilding expressing their viewpoints... well... rather passionately.

Well said, but it read like a pi$$ing match first thing this morning.

just wanted to add that posting 'progress' pictures to support the benefits of a given method is pretty meaningless.

to disprove a statement, you would have to do a replicate study and account for all other variables. then you manipulate the one you are looking at (tracking calories and macros).

but you can't be the exact same person at the first and 2nd study. you can't go back in time and undo what you did the first time around.

consistency over time is a lot bigger indicator of 'success' than anything else.

i used to be a lot more meticulous about diet and training five years ago than i am now. yet i look a lot 'better' now than back then. that has little to do with tracking and counting and recording all workouts, nor does it mean that 'method' did not work.

I lurked in your journal a few years back.
Props for your work!

Yeah, I was hoping it would be more about why folks use certain methods, and less about "you're doing it wrong". Not everybody has the same goals.

I HATE counting macros.
I HATE anything to do with math.
My mind is better suited for other things.
So I hired Layne to do my prep thinking for me...it worked for both of us. and when you go nutters from your diet and start worrying about all sorts of stuff, that came in handy having him doing it.
Very handy.

I freestyle my training because I know enough about it to trust my gut in the gym.
I CANNOT freestyle my diet because I it just doesn't work for me that way...and it took waaaay too long for me to realize this. I quite simply, lack what it takes to do this otherwise.

[induced_drag]

Yeah, I was hoping it would be more about why folks use certain methods, and less about "you're doing it wrong". Not everybody has the same goals.

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IC.... While you act as if you are 'taking the high road', I too can not help but be disappointed with attempts to distract the discussion, actually started by you. (if you care to look back)

..... And it's even harder for those of us who rely on our own testosterone and other hormones for muscle gain and fat loss....

When you are ready for an honest and open discussion about this topic, read the responses by those that shared their thoughts. I do not think it is a "you are doing it wrong" thread. Those with success have shared theirs. I was simply asking you to provide more info on the success that you have experienced doing it your way.

You have avoided answering it and been very vague. I for one would like to know more about how this method has worked for you. Pics, measurements, strength progression....any info you care to provide. I am sincerely interested to see how it has worked. Maybe it might force me to reconsider my views if for example you have gained 15lbs last year and added 100lbs to your bench.... Heck...maybe I got it wrong. But if you dont share info like others have, how can you expect to have an good discussion?...