Kipping pull-up.... Really?

[bevans100fitnes]

This is going to be the least intellectual sounding post I have ever made but I have no idea how to explain it.

Gymnasts look stiff when they do it, like they're maintaining abdominal tension, and directing force. Crossfitters look floppy, like they're using abs as more than a stabilizer, "snaking" their spine...

I dunno..

One other thing to keep in mind is things that are safe as a 150 lb woman are frequently not safe as a 200lb man. And so on and so forth

[jessemitchell58]

When I was in the marine corps we were always told not to kip because it does not improve your pull-ups if you want to improve try doing pull-ups with extra weight I used to do pull-ups with 25lbs of gear on my back

[nykwan]

I enter my first PL competition in January...and I entirely agree with your point. Powerlifters don't compete in having the prettiest chest but they do compete in the bench press, crossfitters don't compete in having great lats but the butterfly pullup is a staple in their training and competitions. The way powerlifters perform the main lifts reflects trying to move the most weight legally, not trying to have the biggest muscles. The way crossfitters perform their exercises reflects the nature of how they compete, not trying to have the biggest muscles. The parallel is quite clear.

I honestly don't think most would care how a CF'er did their workout. But the difference between most CFers and PLers or anyone else, is that only CF'ers tend to tell everyone that they are now somehow better than anyone else doing any other workout. They push the stereotype now that anyone in a traditional gym is doing an inferior workout, and that they only look good and can't do anything with the muscles they build....cause noone else but CFers actually run or do cardio! And also that noone else knows how to eat well cause they don't do paleo.

Its probably not every individual CFer, but its a big majority of them and is genuinely part of the CF culture. I read about this for a long time, and then when people I knew started CF, I heard the same stuff first hand too. Its the CF culture that generates the hate from other people.

I don't care if anyone does zumba or does P90X or belly dancing or whatever they choose to do, but don't act like its the best thing out there and you're better than everyone else just because you fell for their marketing and cult mentality. Only CF has this attitude. The whole marketing of CF pushes that attitude in order to sell it and get people to pay $150-$200+ a month.

Another funny thing is I was telling my friend he literally pays 10X more than I do per month for working out. I pay $17/month and he pays ~$200/month for his CF gym. But his response is that its actually a good thing cause since he pays so much, it makes him not miss want to miss his classes! LOL I'm like, I hope you get 10x the results then cause I don't miss workouts just cause I don't want to miss workouts.

[SquatTilYouDrop]

I honestly don't think most would care how a CF'er did their workout. But the difference between most CFers and PLers or anyone else, is that only CF'ers tend to tell everyone that they are now somehow better than anyone else doing any other workout. They push the stereotype now that anyone in a traditional gym is doing an inferior workout, and that they only look good and can't do anything with the muscles they build....cause noone else but CFers actually run or do cardio! And also that noone else knows how to eat well cause they don't do paleo.

Its probably not every individual CFer, but its a big majority of them and is genuinely part of the CF culture. I read about this for a long time, and then when people I knew started CF, I heard the same stuff first hand too. Its the CF culture that generates the hate from other people.

I don't care if anyone does zumba or does P90X or belly dancing or whatever they choose to do, but don't act like its the best thing out there and you're better than everyone else just because you fell for their marketing and cult mentality. Only CF has this attitude. The whole marketing of CF pushes that attitude in order to sell it and get people to pay $150-$200+ a month.

Another funny thing is I was telling my friend he literally pays 10X more than I do per month for working out. I pay $17/month and he pays ~$200/month for his CF gym. But his response is that its actually a good thing cause since he pays so much, it makes him not miss want to miss his classes! LOL I'm like, I hope you get 10x the results then cause I don't miss workouts just cause I don't want to miss workouts.

[Tillday]

Something I was thinking about comparable to this.

Recreational cyclists vs. professional cyclists.

The goal of a professional cyclist is to go fast so they can get to the finish line before anyone else.

Someone cycling for fitness however, has no need for speed, in fact speed is often dangerous in a real world environment with cars, sticks in the road, animals, people, intersections etc.

And yet there's the recreational cyclists that go the whole 9 yards with the professional bikes, locking shoes, flashy nut hugger clothes, shaving their legs etc.

If I wanted to get the most out of my cycling exercise, I'm going to load up on wind resistance. First I'd get a BMX bike, it's more comfortable for one, and it's harder to peddle. That or a mountain bike and sit in low gear. Then I'd wear baggy clothes, and grow a massive beard, wear no helmet, maybe keep my hood up, and a billed hat.

Frankly I think they just want to wear tight clothes to show off. It's sort of like the guys that spend $150 at Cabela's for a brand-name orange hunting jacket, because hunting isn't a sport for them, it's dress-up. Why else would you do something that's not conducive or less efficient to your goal? Isn't a $20 orange vest the same thing? Is it less orange?

[rdferguson]

I honestly don't think most would care how a CF'er did their workout. But the difference between most CFers and PLers or anyone else, is that only CF'ers tend to tell everyone that they are now somehow better than anyone else doing any other workout. They push the stereotype now that anyone in a traditional gym is doing an inferior workout, and that they only look good and can't do anything with the muscles they build....cause noone else but CFers actually run or do cardio! And also that noone else knows how to eat well cause they don't do paleo.

Its probably not every individual CFer, but its a big majority of them and is genuinely part of the CF culture. I read about this for a long time, and then when people I knew started CF, I heard the same stuff first hand too. Its the CF culture that generates the hate from other people.

I don't care if anyone does zumba or does P90X or belly dancing or whatever they choose to do, but don't act like its the best thing out there and you're better than everyone else just because you fell for their marketing and cult mentality. Only CF has this attitude. The whole marketing of CF pushes that attitude in order to sell it and get people to pay $150-$200+ a month.

Another funny thing is I was telling my friend he literally pays 10X more than I do per month for working out. I pay $17/month and he pays ~$200/month for his CF gym. But his response is that its actually a good thing cause since he pays so much, it makes him not miss want to miss his classes! LOL I'm like, I hope you get 10x the results then cause I don't miss workouts just cause I don't want to miss workouts.

Every method in the fitness industry that has a name also has dogmatic, elitist followers who think thir way is the one true way. Crossfit does it (and they're super-effective at it), but they're not the only ones. Actually, it's rare for me to stumble across any sort of authority figure in training who has the humility to say that other methods work, and may work well for your goals.

[SDFlip]

This is going to be the least intellectual sounding post I have ever made but I have no idea how to explain it.

Gymnasts look stiff when they do it, like they're maintaining abdominal tension, and directing force. Crossfitters look floppy, like they're using abs as more than a stabilizer, "snaking" their spine...

I dunno..

maybe because gymnasts are judged on presentation and execution

One other thing to keep in mind is things that are safe as a 150 lb woman are frequently not safe as a 200lb man. And so on and so forth

that doesn't make sense at all. if you're talking about a 200/150lb in shape person, both male and female will be pretty jacked. i'm sure their body can handle the demands of their workout, etc.

When I was in the marine corps we were always told not to kip because it does not improve your pull-ups if you want to improve try doing pull-ups with extra weight I used to do pull-ups with 25lbs of gear on my back

Marines can't kip on their PFT because everyone was getting max points for their pullups when they kipped. that's all their is to it.

I honestly don't think most would care how a CF'er did their workout. But the difference between most CFers and PLers or anyone else, is that only CF'ers tend to tell everyone that they are now somehow better than anyone else doing any other workout. They push the stereotype now that anyone in a traditional gym is doing an inferior workout, and that they only look good and can't do anything with the muscles they build....cause noone else but CFers actually run or do cardio! And also that noone else knows how to eat well cause they don't do paleo.

Its probably not every individual CFer, but its a big majority of them and is genuinely part of the CF culture. I read about this for a long time, and then when people I knew started CF, I heard the same stuff first hand too. Its the CF culture that generates the hate from other people.

I don't care if anyone does zumba or does P90X or belly dancing or whatever they choose to do, but don't act like its the best thing out there and you're better than everyone else just because you fell for their marketing and cult mentality. Only CF has this attitude. The whole marketing of CF pushes that attitude in order to sell it and get people to pay $150-$200+ a month.

Another funny thing is I was telling my friend he literally pays 10X more than I do per month for working out. I pay $17/month and he pays ~$200/month for his CF gym. But his response is that its actually a good thing cause since he pays so much, it makes him not miss want to miss his classes! LOL I'm like, I hope you get 10x the results then cause I don't miss workouts just cause I don't want to miss workouts.

^^^ this. but you have people like that in every group in the fitness community.

Every method in the fitness industry that has a name also has dogmatic, elitist followers who think thir way is the one true way. Crossfit does it (and they're super-effective at it), but they're not the only ones. Actually, it's rare for me to stumble across any sort of authority figure in training who has the humility to say that other methods work, and may work well for your goals.

^^^
this. good post.


the thing about crossfit that sets it apart for the rest of the fitness crowd is the sense of community crossfit has. everyone encourages and roots for each other. they actually help one another. you can't always say that for bodybuilders, lol. most of the time people just say "you look like sh*t ph@ggot" haha

[ZoranM]

So what does everyone think about this 'kipping pull-up' I see the crossfitters doing?

Crap.

Do we really consider this good training?

No.

Let me know your thoughts.

Come back?

[CookAndrewB]

I dont' care that people I know that do CF do kipping pullups. But I get annoyed cause they always seem to leave off 'kipping' when telling other how many pullups they had to do. "yeah... I did 50 pullups last night!!'

This might be a fair point, but it also doesn't hurt you at all does it? For instance, I assume most people on here with a 400lb squat hardly have a powerlifting legal squat. Is it annoying? Maybe. I am proud that my squats are of legit depth and form. But some 160lb teen claiming to squat more than me doesn't really impact me in any way even if their squat is complete bullsh!t.

Its like the want to purposely mislead people into thinking they are doing real pullups or they are embarrassed to say they don't do strict pullups. And they do know what they are doing are kipping pullups and not real pullups, but just don't say it when trying to brag about their workouts.

I think this assumes a lot. You REALLY think there is some big crossfit consipracy to try and devalue the pullup? I think that sounds a little crazy. If the individuals that you know have this mentality, then I would say the real issue here is your choice in friends/aquaintances. I know a guy who works at the local grocery store and every time I see him he brags about how much he benches. I don't generalize this trait to tens of thousands of people based on this limited interaction with ONE guy. Following me?

I honestly don't think most would care how a CF'er did their workout. But the difference between most CFers and PLers or anyone else, is that only CF'ers tend to tell everyone that they are now somehow better than anyone else doing any other workout. They push the stereotype now that anyone in a traditional gym is doing an inferior workout, and that they only look good and can't do anything with the muscles they build....cause noone else but CFers actually run or do cardio! And also that noone else knows how to eat well cause they don't do paleo.

Again, I think this is a function of who you chose to associate with. I have a close aquaintance who owns a CF gym. I've worked out with him and his clients. I never saw poor form, I never heard one ounce of ego, and generally I walked away from the couple experiences feeling pretty good about it all. So who is right, you or me? Or is it possible that both types of people enjoy crossfit training?

Its probably not every individual CFer, but its a big majority of them and is genuinely part of the CF culture. I read about this for a long time, and then when people I knew started CF, I heard the same stuff first hand too. Its the CF culture that generates the hate from other people.

I agree with this. There is a segment of the CF world that enjoys this reputation. It is unfortunate that this is true, but this stereotype no more valid than any other when you consider the whole population of CF athletes and novices.

I don't care if anyone does zumba or does P90X or belly dancing or whatever they choose to do, but don't act like its the best thing out there and you're better than everyone else just because you fell for their marketing and cult mentality. Only CF has this attitude. The whole marketing of CF pushes that attitude in order to sell it and get people to pay $150-$200+ a month.

No, CF is hardly the only population that has this die hard dogmatic belief system. They are just the group that you have a problem with. There are lots of bodybuilders that think powerlifters are dumb, lots of powerlifters who think bodybuilders are dumb, lots of marathon runners who think weight lifters are dumb as a whole, etc. If you have never seen stupid comments about how powerlifters may be strong, but they can't walk up a flight of stairs without getting winded... you haven't been paying enough attention. Likewise, I've seen more than my share of ignorant comments about how "gay" it is to wear a speedo and oil yourself up. Think these viewpoints are any different or any less elitist?

Another funny thing is I was telling my friend he literally pays 10X more than I do per month for working out. I pay $17/month and he pays ~$200/month for his CF gym. But his response is that its actually a good thing cause since he pays so much, it makes him not miss want to miss his classes! LOL I'm like, I hope you get 10x the results then cause I don't miss workouts just cause I don't want to miss workouts.

I have this same general opinion about people that use personal trainers. Why pay so much money when you can do a little reading online and get the same workout? But it goes back to what I said about how this doesn't really hurt me... or you. Truth is that some people need a little extra motivation. It is what it is. Some people aren't motivated to attend college classes. Some people aren't motivated to show up for work. We all recognize that we may have to do something that we don't like, because it is good for us. If that means we seek out some external motivation to do what is good for us, I hardly see the issue. As for how other people spend their money, that really isn't the issue, is it? I'm sure that you are surrounded by people who spend money on things that you find pointless. So why is CF an issue, but your mom buying Good Housekeeping magazine isn't?

[SDFlip]

lol

i rarely see anyone make another comment after your posts

would rep if i could

[nykwan]

This might be a fair point, but it also doesn't hurt you at all does it? For instance, I assume most people on here with a 400lb squat hardly have a powerlifting legal squat. Is it annoying? Maybe. I am proud that my squats are of legit depth and form. But some 160lb teen claiming to squat more than me doesn't really impact me in any way even if their squat is complete bullsh!t.

Of course it doesn't actually 'hurt me'. As I said, its annoying.

I think this assumes a lot. You REALLY think there is some big crossfit consipracy to try and devalue the pullup? I think that sounds a little crazy. If the individuals that you know have this mentality, then I would say the real issue here is your choice in friends/aquaintances. I know a guy who works at the local grocery store and every time I see him he brags about how much he benches. I don't generalize this trait to tens of thousands of people based on this limited interaction with ONE guy. Following me?

You're taking what I said and making it bigger than what I said. There's no conspiracy. But fair point. It's not just one guy, but yes, I generalize.

Again, I think this is a function of who you chose to associate with. I have a close aquaintance who owns a CF gym. I've worked out with him and his clients. I never saw poor form, I never heard one ounce of ego, and generally I walked away from the couple experiences feeling pretty good about it all. So who is right, you or me? Or is it possible that both types of people enjoy crossfit training?

Maybe you have a good gym.

I agree with this. There is a segment of the CF world that enjoys this reputation. It is unfortunate that this is true, but this stereotype no more valid than any other when you consider the whole population of CF athletes and novices.

No, CF is hardly the only population that has this die hard dogmatic belief system. They are just the group that you have a problem with. There are lots of bodybuilders that think powerlifters are dumb, lots of powerlifters who think bodybuilders are dumb, lots of marathon runners who think weight lifters are dumb as a whole, etc. If you have never seen stupid comments about how powerlifters may be strong, but they can't walk up a flight of stairs without getting winded... you haven't been paying enough attention. Likewise, I've seen more than my share of ignorant comments about how "gay" it is to wear a speedo and oil yourself up. Think these viewpoints are any different or any less elitist?

You're talking more about individuals in PL or BB that are elitist. PL or BB as a sport/form of exercise does not promote this. CF does and this can't be denied.

I have this same general opinion about people that use personal trainers. Why pay so much money when you can do a little reading online and get the same workout? But it goes back to what I said about how this doesn't really hurt me... or you. Truth is that some people need a little extra motivation. It is what it is. Some people aren't motivated to attend college classes. Some people aren't motivated to show up for work. We all recognize that we may have to do something that we don't like, because it is good for us. If that means we seek out some external motivation to do what is good for us, I hardly see the issue. As for how other people spend their money, that really isn't the issue, is it? I'm sure that you are surrounded by people who spend money on things that you find pointless. So why is CF an issue, but your mom buying Good Housekeeping magazine isn't?

Of course it doesn't hurt me. Again, I don't care what workouts friends do, but I don't like to hear them telling me how their workout is so much better for everyone and paleo is the way I should eat to be healthy, blah , blah , blah. Yes, its and individual, but that is what they are taught CF classes. You can't deny its a CF attitude as a whole. I'm not the first one to ever say these things. There are tons of other people and articles online that all say the same things.

Its not hate on CF workouts. But the mentality that they need to let others know that they are doing it 'better' than you are. They remind me of evangelicals that won't leave you alone. I guess thats why CF has that culty stereotype also. Don't say I gave them that stereotype...it was there already from the tons of things I read for a while now.

[CookAndrewB]

lol

i rarely see anyone make another comment after your posts

would rep if i could

I guess clear thinking just doesn't lend itself to a lot of heated debate.

[SquatTilYouDrop]

Of course it doesn't actually 'hurt me'. As I said, its annoying.
You're taking what I said and making it bigger than what I said. There's no conspiracy. But fair point. It's not just one guy, but yes, I generalize.
Maybe you have a good gym.
You're talking more about individuals in PL or BB that are elitist. PL or BB as a sport/form of exercise does not promote this. CF does and this can't be denied.

Of course it doesn't hurt me. Again, I don't care what workouts friends do, but I don't like to hear them telling me how their workout is so much better for everyone and paleo is the way I should eat to be healthy, blah , blah , blah. Yes, its and individual, but that is what they are taught CF classes. You can't deny its a CF attitude as a whole. I'm not the first one to ever say these things. There are tons of other people and articles online that all say the same things.

Its not hate on CF workouts. But the mentality that they need to let others know that they are doing it 'better' than you are. They remind me of evangelicals that won't leave you alone. I guess thats why CF has that culty stereotype also. Don't say I gave them that stereotype...it was there already from the tons of things I read for a while now.

Didn't you know, you're not allowed to comment negatively after a post promoting cross fit on bb.com.

Wouldn't want the cult mad at you now, would you?

[CookAndrewB]

Its not hate on CF workouts. But the mentality that they need to let others know that they are doing it 'better' than you are. They remind me of evangelicals that won't leave you alone. I guess thats why CF has that culty stereotype also. Don't say I gave them that stereotype...it was there already from the tons of things I read for a while now.

Aside from the fact that you said this is your experience with one individual, I believe I already agreed that there is a segment of CF that enjoys this ideal of being elite. Again, I would state that those who don't share that zest for "being teh hardkorez" are just harder to notice.

I do believe that Ironman competitions and other endurance type races (Tough mudder, etc) are primarily billed as a way to prove how awesome you are. Best of the best, better than your average fitness type, elite etc. I don't know that we see that around here, because this doesn't tend to be a place for huge cardio buffs outside of... yup, CF. I don't know, I don't think you can convince me that this is a CF unique trait.

On a side note, I doubt that people generally participate in things because they feel they are substandard. In fact, I think it is a fairly human trait to become fanatical about those things we feel passionate about. Again, I understand how annoying it is, but annoying hardly justifies the venom that people have over this subject.

[CookAndrewB]

Didn't you know, you're not allowed to comment negatively after a post promoting cross fit on bb.com.

Wouldn't want the cult mad at you now, would you?

[bevans100fitnes]

I think there are parallels between myself and crossfit.

The cooler you act like you are, the more it makes people not included (for crossfit others with different workout methods, for me anyone who doesn't know me personally and realize I say a lot of things in jest) want to HATE you.

I have no prooblem with kipping pullups in crossfit, or crossfit itself. Thinking about switching and competing in the games, in which case I would kip (considering at a request of a former co-worker who is high in the ranks)...

Just don't let kipping fall into your workout if you aren't ever going to be tested on # of pullups, because then it would be silly.

And lastly, the 150 lb woman, 200 lb man comment had nothing to do with strength, it had to do with bodyweight giving that when kipping your are hanging. It's the reason you don't see 200lb male skateboarders.

[SDFlip]

And lastly, the 150 lb woman, 200 lb man comment had nothing to do with strength, it had to do with bodyweight giving that when kipping your are hanging.

but they will have the musculature to support the movement at that weight

[Jasonk282]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPGhhs-yy7I

kind of a bad example of "proper form" but note his lower back isn't touching. He still has an arch.

NOW THIS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOKCN2LcwDo

I was implying, that benching the second way, decreases range of motion and the productivity of the workout.... If the workout is intended to do something other than "practice benching more" such as increase chest size, increase sports performance, punch harder, burn fat... etc...

Please try to read before you flame.

Your lower back doesn't have to touch. Ass and scapula on the bench is all that is required.

It's funny that you are form checking men that bench 225x28 and 290.5kg or 640lbs.

A kippling pullup is a form on a pull up much like benching with an extream arch is a form on benching. When the goal is to push the most weight possible or do as many pullups as possible...well, you do what it takes to get the job done.