Over-training.. does it burn muscle and you end up with smaller muscles??????

[flowxsss]

what do you say on this? has any of you lost muscle while doing excessive sets and reps?
it seems more logical that fat burns before muscle in order to supply the human body with energy!!

[bigtallox]

has any of you lost muscle while doing excessive sets and reps?

Just because you're doing "excessive sets and reps" it doesn't mean you're in a state of overtraining.

[tryintorebuild]

When I think of overtraining, I think of stressing the muscles so bad that they don't recoop before you stress them again. When I did that, I caused long lasting damage that forced me to stop doing the exercise for awhile. That's when it went to the point of hurting the muscles. My thought:

Overtrain => Muscle tires => Form gets bad => Pull tendon, wrench back, pinch nerve, etc. => Lay off weights for a few weeks => Weeks turn to months => Muscles atrophy.

Maybe not for everybody. But that's me. I'm kind of an all or none type of guy. With the tendacy toward none. Get me started and I'll go with it, but getting me started isn't all that easy.

[ironwill2008]

what do you say on this? has any of you lost muscle while doing excessive sets and reps?
it seems more logical that fat burns before muscle in order to supply the human body with energy!!

Define "excessive sets and reps" please.

[ilovethe80s]

Are you asking if any of us have experienced atrophy as a result of high volume work? I'm pretty sure the only way to achieve atrophy is disuse. But training without enough recovery can hinder muscle repair. I wouldn't say that is 'atrophy' or describe it as eating the muscle, but you might not get the growth you feel you deserve with all that work if you aren't allowing for recovery.

I agree with bigtallox that there is a difference between excessive sets/ reps and overtraining. Plenty of programs that have what seems like excessive volume produce great results. Overtraining/ overreaching is something different.

Or are you asking about where the energy would come from if someone were just lifting for an extended session?

I could be wrong, but I don't think muscle itself is really considered a substrate - but protein breakdown (is that what you are asking?) is a really insignificant source of energy... I'd imagine you'd need to be in just dire condition for that to come to your primary energy source as a result of weightlifting. For activities that go for longer durations (I'm thinking marathon), protein breakdown happens a bit more, but I think it goes more on duration than it does on just the fact that you did a bunch of reps. It is carbs/glucose, then fats then protein, with protein as a distant third. You're probably safe, just make sure you're eating enough for whatever you're doing

[kevsworld]

what do you say on this? has any of you lost muscle while doing excessive sets and reps?
it seems more logical that fat burns before muscle in order to supply the human body with energy!!

You'd have to have very low calories AND very low body fat for this to happen.

[oldsuperman]

Define "excessive sets and reps" please.

^^^^^
Good to know.

I don't really believe in "Over Training." IMO, there's just "Good Training" and "Bad Training."

[drudixon]

Overtraining is more of a CNS issue than a muscle issue....

[BearLovesLuna]

You'd have to have very low calories AND very low body fat for this to happen.

This is somewhat/partially correct. One would also have to be in a low glycogen stores-state. Just being low on a given day for calories or fat won't do it.

From what I have read, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to create catabolism on a muscle group by overworking it, if the individual is well fed and rested in the day/days prior (and 24-48 hours after). Impossible. I think this is a big myth about "overtraining", or a misunderstanding- that "40 sets to failure" would cause you to start "eating" that muscle...

That being said, 40 sets to failure (using 40 as a silly example) WOULD likely cause other effects that WOULD create "losses" because of the overtraining. But these would have more to do with nervous system fatigue, muscle/tendon/ligament injury and fatigue beyond "normal" which would prevent retraining as soon as a normal person would have been able to retrain if he/she had not "overdone it", etc...

So, to answer the question, I think it depends on what you "think" overtraining "does" to the muscle or body or CNS. If you think overtraining can make you lose progress because you aren't cycling between damage/recovery as quickly and safely as possible, then you are right- you can be losing "mass" gains- but only as a potential, not as an immediate result of eating the muscle up while working it out.

IMO - the short and accurate answer is, overtraining will cause you to lose "something" (likely progress), but not for the reason of a muscle "eating" itself during a workout. A properly fed body (even a cutting one) has enough energy easily for a good hard, normal BB workout. (You might have less power or endurance on a cut, but you still won't be eating muscle (much) if you are feeding yourself properly daily).

You would have to go hours and hours to get to a state where you ate the muscle group you were working on, during the workout...

[Kraken]

Overtraining is more of a CNS issue than a muscle issue....

Correct. Without getting in to all of the details, the massive hit to the CNS will cause a different set of signs and symptoms than over reaching will, which is how you can tell the difference. Overtraining can lead to depression, insomnia, nausea, fatigue...and can take months and months to recover from. Overreaching can be recovered from in as little as a week off with a good diet.

[flowxsss]

ok my mistake i shouldnt have said "over training", heres what happened, yesterday i did drop sets for biceps , started heavy and after an hour of decreasing the weight ended up doing 25 reps with a 10 lb dumbbells !!!! i know 10 lb weight is kinda funny but after 35 sets i couldnt do better,. now some thing weird happened when i was doing set 30 "at the end of the w/o" i was at a point where i could nt lift 10 lb dumbbell more than 15 reps then it was like i got a energy boost and i was able to do 30 reps !! and i finished the last 3 sets doing 30 reps then i stopped , it was endless,, after an hour of lifting ,, where did this energy come from i had only water and one sip of lemon juice during w/o..
also when i finished my w/o biceps didnt get pumped like when doing less total sets, i was thinking maybe i worked the muscle too much till it ran out of energy and started braking down muscle tissue for fuel, thats when i felt the energy boost and was able to do more reps, add to that losing the pump !!!! what the f*** happened? can any one explain?

[BearLovesLuna]

ok my mistake i shouldnt have said "over training", heres what happened, yesterday i did drop sets for biceps , started heavy and after an hour of decreasing the weight ended up doing 25 reps with a 10 lb dumbbells !!!! i know 10 lb weight is kinda funny but after 35 sets i couldnt do better,. now some thing weird happened when i was doing set 30 "at the end of the w/o" i was at a point where i could nt lift 10 lb dumbbell more than 15 reps then it was like i got a energy boost and i was able to do 30 reps !! and i finished the last 3 sets doing 30 reps then i stopped , it was endless,, after an hour of lifting ,, where did this energy come from i had only water and one sip of lemon juice during w/o..
also when i finished my w/o biceps didnt get pumped like when doing less total sets, i was thinking maybe i worked the muscle too much till it ran out of energy and started braking down muscle tissue for fuel, thats when i felt the energy boost and was able to do more reps, add to that losing the pump !!!! what the f*** happened? can any one explain?

I'm gonna tell you what I think happened, even though I don't have a PhD or any bull**** that is "important"-

You reached a low end threshold where you could recover over and over again, your ATP. Period. You burned yourself (by busting ass) out til you reached a bottom, and at that bottom (when you got to this "endless" reps/sets area), you SLOWLY recovered (because you were no longer increasing load, or reps) more ATP during rest than you spent during exercise, making it seem as though you could go forever.

You reached the point where, quite honestly, IMO, you were working out for nothing. Over training.... your muscles don't need to be destroyed to be made to grow optimally. They need to be progressively challenged ("hurt", in my words).

What you did was waste your time for about 30-40 minutes.

IMO.. 35 sets... yeah...

[flowxsss]

I'm gonna tell you what I think happened, even though I don't have a PhD or any bull**** that is "important"-

You reached a low end threshold where you could recover over and over again, your ATP. Period. You burned yourself (by busting ass) out til you reached a bottom, and at that bottom (when you got to this "endless" reps/sets area), you SLOWLY recovered (because you were no longer increasing load, or reps) more ATP during rest than you spent during exercise, making it seem as though you could go forever.

You reached the point where, quite honestly, IMO, you were working out for nothing. Over training.... your muscles don't need to be destroyed to be made to grow optimally. They need to be progressively challenged ("hurt", in my words).

What you did was waste your time for about 30-40 minutes.

IMO.. 35 sets... yeah...

i hope youre right on this ATP thing,, the thought of me burning my muscle as fuel for few more lousy sets makes me want to hit my self with that 10 lb db,

[SteveJunior12]

Overtraining sometimes hurt badly so dont do overtraining quite often, sometimes its ok

[drudixon]

I'm gonna tell you what I think happened, even though I don't have a PhD or any bull**** that is "important"-

You reached a low end threshold where you could recover over and over again, your ATP. Period. You burned yourself (by busting ass) out til you reached a bottom, and at that bottom (when you got to this "endless" reps/sets area), you SLOWLY recovered (because you were no longer increasing load, or reps) more ATP during rest than you spent during exercise, making it seem as though you could go forever.

You reached the point where, quite honestly, IMO, you were working out for nothing. Over training.... your muscles don't need to be destroyed to be made to grow optimally. They need to be progressively challenged ("hurt", in my words).

What you did was waste your time for about 30-40 minutes.

IMO.. 35 sets... yeah...

There is a rebound after a point. I know with GVT, sets 8,9,10 are easier than 5,6,7.

[miamibodybuilder]

well speaking from experience, when you overtrain your muscles dont necessarily become smaller, but if your body is run down and tired then you're definitely going to look flat and smooth which in turn makes you look smaller. also, if you're overtraining, then your workouts will all be counterproductive. again your muscles wont get smaller, but you definitely wont be growing thats for sure. and after a while your sessions will start to go downhill and you'll feel really tired, lethargic and weak all of a sudden. this happened to me a few years back when i didnt listen to my body. so be careful and train smart and be sure to get plenty of rest, and eat lots of good clean food.

[kittyboy]

OP, didn't you have something better to do than 35 sets of curls? 30 sets weren't enough?

[flowxsss]

Just because you're doing "excessive sets and reps" it doesn't mean you're in a state of overtraining.

^^^ i agree

Define "excessive sets and reps" please.

i explained what exactly happened few posts above, maybe you read it!!

Are you asking if any of us have experienced atrophy as a result of high volume work? I'm pretty sure the only way to achieve atrophy is disuse. But training without enough recovery can hinder muscle repair. I wouldn't say that is 'atrophy' or describe it as eating the muscle, but you might not get the growth you feel you deserve with all that work if you aren't allowing for recovery.

I agree with bigtallox that there is a difference between excessive sets/ reps and overtraining. Plenty of programs that have what seems like excessive volume produce great results. Overtraining/ overreaching is something different.

Or are you asking about where the energy would come from if someone were just lifting for an extended session?

I could be wrong, but I don't think muscle itself is really considered a substrate - but protein breakdown (is that what you are asking?) is a really insignificant source of energy... I'd imagine you'd need to be in just dire condition for that to come to your primary energy source as a result of weightlifting. For activities that go for longer durations (I'm thinking marathon), protein breakdown happens a bit more, but I think it goes more on duration than it does on just the fact that you did a bunch of reps. It is carbs/glucose, then fats then protein, with protein as a distant third. You're probably safe, just make sure you're eating enough for whatever you're doing

thnx i think im safe,, no muscle damage!!

well speaking from experience, when you overtrain your muscles dont necessarily become smaller, but if your body is run down and tired then you're definitely going to look flat and smooth which in turn makes you look smaller. also, if you're overtraining, then your workouts will all be counterproductive. again your muscles wont get smaller, but you definitely wont be growing thats for sure. and after a while your sessions will start to go downhill and you'll feel really tired, lethargic and weak all of a sudden. this happened to me a few years back when i didnt listen to my body. so be careful and train smart and be sure to get plenty of rest, and eat lots of good clean food.

OP, didn't you have something better to do than 35 sets of curls? 30 sets weren't enough?

seems i had nothing to do , i got carried away ,, set after set......

[JOHN GARGANI]

Overtraining sometimes hurt badly so dont do overtraining quite often, sometimes its ok

what in the world are you doing in our forum?

[bigtallox]

Overtraining is more of a CNS issue than a muscle issue....

I agree.

[x-trainer ben]

what do you say on this? has any of you lost muscle while doing excessive sets and reps?
it seems more logical that fat burns before muscle in order to supply the human body with energy!!

skip to 1:06
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K1GStV46Ck

[pharmamarketer]

ok my mistake i shouldnt have said "over training", heres what happened, yesterday i did drop sets for biceps , started heavy and after an hour of decreasing the weight ended up doing 25 reps with a 10 lb dumbbells !!!! i know 10 lb weight is kinda funny but after 35 sets i couldnt do better,. now some thing weird happened when i was doing set 30 "at the end of the w/o" i was at a point where i could nt lift 10 lb dumbbell more than 15 reps then it was like i got a energy boost and i was able to do 30 reps !! and i finished the last 3 sets doing 30 reps then i stopped , it was endless,, after an hour of lifting ,, where did this energy come from i had only water and one sip of lemon juice during w/o..
also when i finished my w/o biceps didnt get pumped like when doing less total sets, i was thinking maybe i worked the muscle too much till it ran out of energy and started braking down muscle tissue for fuel, thats when i felt the energy boost and was able to do more reps, add to that losing the pump !!!! what the f*** happened? can any one explain?

You did biceps for an hour? Overtraining them is the least of your problems

[Marius_Ursus]

Define "excessive sets and reps" please.

It is generally accepted that "excessive reps" lie between 23 and 94-and-a-half reps.

Science.

[oldsuperman]

It is generally accepted that "excessive reps" lie between 23 and 94-and-a-half reps.

Science.

^^^^^^^^

Or somewhere between 24 and 95 and a half reps...... That's science.

[Corbi]

30+ sets of curls? WTF is wrong with you?

[ntrllftr]

30+ sets of curls? WTF is wrong with you?

Dude, Curls for the girls bro!!!
But who know how many tris he does.
Tris for teh guize. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I don't really believe in "Over Training." IMO, there's just "Good Training" and "Bad Training."

^^^ Always been a firm believer in this ^^^

OP - I say to get educated on some regular training routines. A little research will do you a lot of good. Running the rack like that is not as productive as you think.

[w8killer]

Just wait til you pull a Cutler bicep tear and try to do an Olympia! lol.

[flowxsss]

You did biceps for an hour? Overtraining them is the least of your problems

problems!!!!!!!

It is generally accepted that "excessive reps" lie between 23 and 94-and-a-half reps.


Science.

actually i was aiming at 50 maybe next time .

30+ sets of curls? WTF is wrong with you?

barbell curls, dumbbell curls, hammer, concentrated, seated ,.........you name it i,ve done it.

OP - I say to get educated on some regular training routines. A little research will do you a lot of good. Running the rack like that is not as productive as you think.

now this is a matter of opinions and you know what they say," opinions are like a**holes ..........and some times THEY STINK"

[ntrllftr]

now this is a matter of opinions and you know what they say," opinions are like a**holes ..........and some times THEY STINK"

Just compared my progress photos to yours. Well ok, your avi.
Let's just say... No opinion.... proven facts! I'll train my whey and you can keep doing what you want.

[Corbi]

actually i was aiming at 50 maybe next time .



barbell curls, dumbbell curls, hammer, concentrated, seated ,.........you name it i,ve done it.



now this is a matter of opinions and you know what they say," opinions are like a**holes ..........and some times THEY STINK"

Good luck with that, I personally rarely ever target biceps specifically and mine sure as hell aren't lacking anything.

Like Carl, said you train your way because I certainly never would.