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  1. #361
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    And there is an appropriate laws to deal with this in DC, for example. I wish more states would enable this as well. When there was no cell phones, there was no need for this law. The reality has changed, we as a society changed, and, in this case, law (in DC at least) changed accordingly.
    Laws don't deal with it. They only provide a means for punishing those who are caught.
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  2. #362
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    June 3, 1942. Japanese forces invaded the Aleutian Islands in Alaska. It took almost a year for American forces to get rid of them.
    That's not mainland America, its an obscure island in Alaska your reaching there. Btw no one on these boards guns would have meant jack **** in that situation
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  3. #363
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    That's not an Invasion its am isolated insident by a terror group having semi automatic assault riffles in your house wouldn't have changed that.

    As to the history argument like I said in a previous responce if the force is good enough to invade and hold our land your semi assault riffles will have the same effect as pissing in the ocean. I'm all for gun rights said it before and less governmental intrusion, I just don't see a valid reason to own automatic weapons. That is outside the few of you honest enough to say for "fun" least that's a truthful reason
    A successful invasion is not the same as a successful occupation. We don't have to go too far back to see that. I doubt this will happen one way or the other but it would be foolish to discount it simply because it's inconvenient or improbable.

    Purposefully automatic weapons are difficult and very expensive to acquire (legally). Most any semi, of the dreaded "assault" type or other, can be made fully automatic, though I don't see full auto as being notably more dangerous.
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  4. #364
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    Does everybody believe that gun control is so cut and dry as taking all your guns away?

    People should look at the example of Sweden which is an armed country with very little gun violence. If you read up on their laws you would see that they do practice gun control without disarming their citizens.

    Mandatory service in the military, where 1) they are taught to use fire arms
    2) they are intigrated with their fellow countrymen a lot of who speak different languages so they are given insight into cultreral differences which I know would give me a greater respect for my countrymen and their lives.

    There are many other differences between the 2 nations (Sweden and the US) laws when it comes to firearms and in no way do I think it would put an end to shooting sprees but if it would save one life, and one more child could be home for Christmas this year I don't see anything wrong with it.
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  5. #365
    Registered User bigvin73's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    A successful invasion is not the same as a successful occupation. We don't have to go too far back to see that. I doubt this will happen one way or the other but it would be foolish to discount it simply because it's inconvenient or improbable.

    Purposefully automatic weapons are difficult and very expensive to acquire (legally). Most any semi, of the dreaded "assault" type or other, can be made fully automatic, though I don't see full auto as being notably more dangerous.
    Kinda miss communication here I think. I'm not discounting it completely my point is if it happened personal guns would be useless, due to the fact it would take one hell of a force to pull it off. This isn't red dawn being wolverines is a Hollywood idea not really practical
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  6. #366
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    Originally Posted by erinlee01 View Post
    You are confusing laws with constitutional rights. They are not the same thing.
    I understand the difference between laws and constitutional rights. My point was that we as a society changed significantly from the time Constitution was written and we continue to change. In fact, Constitution was amended several times throughout history to reflect various changes.
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  7. #367
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    That's not an Invasion its am isolated insident by a terror group having semi automatic assault riffles in your house wouldn't have changed that.

    As to the history argument like I said in a previous responce if the force is good enough to invade and hold our land your semi assault riffles will have the same effect as pissing in the ocean. I'm all for gun rights said it before and less governmental intrusion, I just don't see a valid reason to own automatic weapons. That is outside the few of you honest enough to say for "fun" least that's a truthful reason
    Enemy combatants on American Soil with the purpose of killing american citizens is not an invasion??

    As for your history lesson, Ask the Soviets what happened when you invade a country with inferior weapons but who are determined enough to hold on to their land to the last breath...
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  8. #368
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    That's not mainland America, its an obscure island in Alaska your reaching there. Btw no one on these boards guns would have meant jack **** in that situation
    So you're saying it's okay for the enemy to land in Hawaii, US Virgin Islands, or Puerto Rico, because they are not CONUS?
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  9. #369
    Registered User bigvin73's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by frozensparky View Post
    Does everybody believe that gun control is so cut and dry as taking all your guns away?

    People should look at the example of Sweden which is an armed country with very little gun violence. If you read up on their laws you would see that they do practice gun control without disarming their citizens.

    Mandatory service in the military, where 1) they are taught to use fire arms
    2) they are intigrated with their fellow countrymen a lot of who speak different languages so they are given insight into cultreral differences which I know would give me a greater respect for my countrymen and their lives.

    There are many other differences between the 2 nations (Sweden and the US) laws when it comes to firearms and in no way do I think it would put an end to shooting sprees but if it would save one life, and one more child could be home for Christmas this year I don't see anything wrong with it.
    ^^^^ this.
    Before someone questions your patriotism or tells you move to Sweden. It's an extreamly valid point
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  10. #370
    Registered User erinlee01's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lotusdeva View Post
    I understand the difference between laws and constitutional rights. My point was that we as a society changed significantly from the time Constitution was written and we continue to change. In fact, Constitution was amended several times throughout history to reflect various changes.
    Since society has changes so much, why don't we just throw out the whole constitution? 11,000 attempts have been made to amend the constitution. Only 17 times has it been amended. Doesn't that tell you something?
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  11. #371
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    Kinda miss communication here I think. I'm not discounting it completely my point is if it happened personal guns would be useless, due to the fact it would take one hell of a force to pull it off. This isn't red dawn being wolverines is a Hollywood idea not really practical
    The thing with occupations is that time is always on the side of the occupied. Where else do they have to go?

    I would like to think that we aren't much different than any other culture and would do our best to protect ourselves if it ever came to it. I do not fall back on the idea that each and every one of us would simply sit in the corner in a pool of our own piss at the first sound of thunder. What would I do? I have no idea and would rather never find out. What would most do? I don't know that either. But, I don't think so little of us to think that we would all simply go tits up if a fully functional and integrated federal military were compromised in some way.
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  12. #372
    Registered User bigvin73's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by NorwichGrad View Post
    So you're saying it's okay for the enemy to land in Hawaii, US Virgin Islands, or Puerto Rico, because they are not CONUS?
    Nope but your not talking about invading and holding America as it would apply to this argument. Your also talking about something that happened in the middle of a world war. Does it apply to current times or likelihood? Absolutely not, we were fighting a multi front war all over the world getting back a lowly populated obscure island or defending it for that matter probably wasn't high on the priority list.

    Kinda splitting hairs on this one.
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    Props at least your honest about why you have yours. Most say they need it for home defense.

    I grew up on navy bases and learned to shoot with fast company I agree fun to shoot fully auto weapons, just don't see the NEED to own them or have them sellable to general public. Almost any moron can go to a gun show and buy one that's recluse to say te least
    My AR is not auto. That takes a special licence to own of those. Mine is just a run of the mill Smith and Wessson Ar15 5.56. One trigger pull one round.
    I do NOT see the need for a citizen to a fully auto weapon.
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  14. #374
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    Originally Posted by frozensparky View Post
    Does everybody believe that gun control is so cut and dry as taking all your guns away?

    People should look at the example of Sweden which is an armed country with very little gun violence. If you read up on their laws you would see that they do practice gun control without disarming their citizens.

    Mandatory service in the military, where 1) they are taught to use fire arms
    2) they are intigrated with their fellow countrymen a lot of who speak different languages so they are given insight into cultreral differences which I know would give me a greater respect for my countrymen and their lives.

    There are many other differences between the 2 nations (Sweden and the US) laws when it comes to firearms and in no way do I think it would put an end to shooting sprees but if it would save one life, and one more child could be home for Christmas this year I don't see anything wrong with it.
    I think you are confusing Sweden with Switzerland, but your point is well made.
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  15. #375
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    Originally Posted by DeTazMan View Post
    Enemy combatants on American Soil with the purpose of killing american citizens is not an invasion??

    As for your history lesson, Ask the Soviets what happened when you invade a country with inferior weapons but who are determined enough to hold on to their land to the last breath...
    If I may..

    The Soviets will probably say "they will conquer enough land just to bury their dead."
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    The thing with occupations is that time is always on the side of the occupied. Where else do they have to go?

    I would like to think that we aren't much different than any other culture and would do our best to protect ourselves if it ever came to it. I do not fall back on the idea that each and every one of us would simply sit in the corner in a pool of our own piss at the first sound of thunder. What would I do? I have no idea and would rather never find out. What would most do? I don't know that either. But, I don't think so little of us to think that we would all simply go tits up if a fully functional and integrated federal military were compromised in some way.

    I agree with you your kinda missing my original point of how far fetched an invasion is and using it as an argument to have automatic guns is a serious stretch at best
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    That's not mainland America, its an obscure island in Alaska your reaching there. Btw no one on these boards guns would have meant jack **** in that situation
    But BigVin just because it seem improbable it still is possible. Didn't the British invade this country? yes I am going back in history, but inevitably we will repeat history, it's in the nature of man(woman) to do so. We have this unhealthy obsession to possess and control.

    And you are probably are right your average persons measly personal arsenal cannot defend against a large invasion, but like I said, I rather go do fighting than just sit here and say Oh well we have been invaded I give up.

    And that is not the only scenario, what if it comes from within this country? What if a revolution begins? What if a solar flair totally wipes out electricity/computers etc. Yes these are all far fetched ideas, but then what? How will you defend your home and family. With a baseball bat?

    There are so many unknowns and possibilities in life, I choose to take the peaceful route now when it comes to conflict, but I will not be naive, sometimes you have to make a stand and protect your life and those of loved ones. And if I have the misfortune to actually live long enough where that becomes a reality then I will stand and fight, even if I am 90 yo. I will be a badass grandma with a AK in my hands
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  18. #378
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    ^^^^ this.
    Before someone questions your patriotism or tells you move to Sweden. It's an extreamly valid point
    Lol I'm Canadian but Sweden is a very good example of a country that has gun control but doesn't disarm their citizens and has very low gun violence. I think there's something to be learned from it.
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    Vin,

    Since you asked, earlier I posted that I have a pump action(not Semi Automatic) AK-47 in 5.56 Nato. I have this firearm for the purpose of Small game hunting. I was looking for an AR platform originally but this was less than Half the price. In Colorado, you have to be under .23 Cal for small game.
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  20. #380
    H = T + V mslman71's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    I agree with you your kinda missing my original point of how far fetched an invasion is and using it as an argument to have automatic guns is a serious stretch at best
    I saw no original point; that is I did not scroll back through all the pages of this train wreck. As I said I'm not concerned with justification to the extent that it converts someone at this point. I have no illusions. We might as well be arguing religion. The history of war, occupation/colonialism is interesting to me so I kinda cued off that.

    As for automatic weapons, I don't particularly care. They are hard to acquire and are expensive and honestly if I wanted a fully automatic weapon I would make one or modify an existing semi. It's almost trivial to do.
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    Originally Posted by frozensparky View Post
    Lol I'm Canadian but Sweden is a very good example of a country that has gun control but doesn't disarm their citizens and has very low gun violence. I think there's something to be learned from it.
    The question is that is the lower rate of violence due to government imposed control or is the lower rate of violence due to a fundamental difference in the people/culture itself?
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    Originally Posted by Trinity1216 View Post
    But BigVin just because it seem improbable it still is possible. Didn't the British invade this country? yes I am going back in history, but inevitably we will repeat history, it's in the nature of man(woman) to do so. We have this unhealthy obsession to possess and control.

    And you are probably are right your average persons measly personal arsenal cannot defend against a large invasion, but like I said, I rather go do fighting than just sit here and say Oh well we have been invaded I give up.

    And that is not the only scenario, what if it comes from within this country? What if a revolution begins? What if a solar flair totally wipes out electricity/computers etc. Yes these are all far fetched ideas, but then what? How will you defend your home and family. With a baseball bat?

    There are so many unknowns and possibilities in life, I choose to take the peaceful route now when it comes to conflict, but I will not be naive, sometimes you have to make a stand and protect your life and those of loved ones. And if I have the misfortune to actually live long enough where that becomes a reality then I will stand and fight, even if I am 90 yo. I will be a badass grandma with a AK in my hands
    I'm all good with that and like I said belive everyone has a right to have guns, but outside LBMs I have them cause they are fun to shoot explanation the rest of the explanations for owning them are just fodder. I'm good with I have them cause they are fun I bet they are, personally I don't own a gun might at some point but I don't need 1. I have 600lbs of dogs most home incursions happen wen people are asleep a gun does me no good there but try getting in without the dogs finding you lol.

    I'm not for anyone taking your guns away but there has to be something done to ensure safer practices with guns. Kind of side tracked all the real arguments with two pages of invasion talk.


    Btw I'm still waiting to hear on the licensing and testing idea? Since they guy with the face mask In his av wants to compare with cars
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    The question is that is the lower rate of violence due to government imposed control or is the lower rate of violence due to a fundamental difference in the people/culture itself?
    My guess is with the manditory military service to own fire arms the responsibility with them is higher as is the respect for them
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    Sorry I had to get some work done.

    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    That car kills more people then guns argument is about the single most useless argument ever used. A guns sole purpose for invention is to kill. Compairing a gun to a car is well sorry kind of a moronic comparison. I don't mean just you I mean In general. Hey do what you want like I said don't like government being intrusive still don't see the need for semi automatic weapons for an average everyday person. Btw you have to go thru training and pass a test to get a license to drive a car, you gun folks good with having to pass gun safety tests to get a license to own a gun? Maybe even tests for different types of guns say hand gun test like a motorcycle test, rifle testing like cars and maybe a more comprehensive semi auto testing say like a CDL, you want to compare I think its fair
    Yes but if that soccer mom was in a Ford Focus she wouldn't have killed so many people when she ran into their car.
    As for the tests and licenses, sure I'm OK with that but it won't do any good because again mass murderers don't care if they're licensed or not. I have all sorts of tests and safety courses so I've already gone through whatever might be required anyway, didn't learn a damn thing from any of them but perhaps they might be good for an average noobie so I'm all for it.

    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    I just drove across town heading back from the hospital (my son is ill, doing much better) and sat down here at home to read and relax for a bit.

    On the drive home I was behind THREE ****ING PEOPLE who were text messaging or doing something with their cell phones on the interstate. Three people in as many miles. Three to five thousand pounds of vehicle moving between 50 and 70 miles an hour and you're worried about whether someone needs an AR/AK and background checks or whatever. How many people, including children do you think have died between the time of this shooting and now because of some fuk'in idiot who can't wait ten minutes to get off the road and carry on a conversation or text or play angry birds or whatever the fuk people do to distract themselves when they are piloting their vehicles.

    The human mind appears to be incapable of rationally identifying and prioritizing risk.
    I mean, I understand having a phone for emergencies but who really NEEDS ability to send a text message?
    Sound familiar?

    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    Not really valid but ill play. She has to go they training and testing and pay insurance to use her SUV. Sinc e you like the gun/car thing so much you willing to agree to testing licensing and insurance to have you fun? Btw don't well all tell our children guns aren't toys? Justsaying
    NRA memberships come with firearms liability insurance. Perhaps everyone should become a member of the NRA.
    Again I'm OK with licensing and insurance, as long as the criteria is as loose for killing people as it is for vehicular homicide. Hey, kill a family with your SUV because you're texting and you're back on the road before too long. How many DUI's does it take to have a license suspended? Guns are just a "feel good" hot button issue, you want to stop innocent kids from suffering look to traffic.
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    I'm all good with that and like I said belive everyone has a right to have guns, but outside LBMs I have them cause they are fun to shoot explanation the rest of the explanations for owning them are just fodder. I'm good with I have them cause they are fun I bet they are, personally I don't own a gun might at some point but I don't need 1. I have 600lbs of dogs most home incursions happen wen people are asleep a gun does me no good there but try getting in without the dogs finding you lol.

    I'm not for anyone taking your guns away but there has to be something done to ensure safer practices with guns. Kind of side tracked all the real arguments with two pages of invasion talk.


    Btw I'm still waiting to hear on the licensing and testing idea? Since they guy with the face mask In his av wants to compare with cars
    Nobody really NEEDs a Pit Bull/Rottweiler/insert big dog here. A simple Jack Russel terrier would wake you up.
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    The question is that is the lower rate of violence due to government imposed control or is the lower rate of violence due to a fundamental difference in the people/culture itself?
    That is a very good question and not one I will pretend to have an answer to. You can also look at Canada's gun laws which are stricter than the US. We have similar cultures and yet Canada has lower gun violence than the US although not as low as Swedens. I am not claiming to know all the answers but I am saying there must be something out there that can make things better. I own guns myself and like my right to do so, so don't take it that I want all guns gone off the face of the earth but I do believe there should be some form of mandatory training, and better storage laws to protect against accidental child deaths.
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    Btw I'm still waiting to hear on the licensing and testing idea? Since they guy with the face mask In his av wants to compare with cars
    I don't like someone somewhere keeping tabs and what I own and how many. I have no problem with training or even a background check. But, I don't want the SWAT team to show up at my house if I report a stray dog because their system says I have x,y and z weapons in the house. I don't trust the government in any way shape or form with information and I don't trust that the laws they pass will be used for their intended purpose (eg RICO, Patriot Act, etc.).

    I used to believe that no matter what there was a layer of people, say government or military, that were on top of it all. That truly knew what was right/wrong and had things figured out. As I've gotten older and drifted in and around some of those organizations I realize that there are certainly plenty of smart individuals placed here and there, for the most part they are just as f'in clueless and psychotic as any other segment of the population. I firmly believe that power that isn't had and information that isn't had can't be misused or abused and I'm willing to accept the risk of a little less protection against the reward of knowing that information and power they don't have can't be misused.
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    My guess is with the manditory military service to own fire arms the responsibility with them is higher as is the respect for them
    Originally Posted by frozensparky View Post
    That is a very good question and not one I will pretend to have an answer to. You can also look at Canada's gun laws which are stricter than the US. We have similar cultures and yet Canada has lower gun violence than the US although not as low as Swedens. I am not claiming to know all the answers but I am saying there must be something out there that can make things better. I own guns myself and like my right to do so, so don't take it that I want all guns gone off the face of the earth but I do believe there should be some form of mandatory training, and better storage laws to protect against accidental child deaths.
    Frankly I don't know. Wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm very skeptical it is one of respect and responsibility as a function of training. It obviously never hurts but my gut instinct is that education is our go to response to make us feel in control. Obviously I am all for education but I feel there's more to it than that. What are my feelings worth? Squat
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    Originally Posted by bigvin73 View Post
    Nope but your not talking about invading and holding America as it would apply to this argument. Your also talking about something that happened in the middle of a world war. Does it apply to current times or likelihood? Absolutely not, we were fighting a multi front war all over the world getting back a lowly populated obscure island or defending it for that matter probably wasn't high on the priority list.

    Kinda splitting hairs on this one.
    So a war has to be declared for an invasion to truly be an "invasion"? How would you classify the well-armed and extremely violent Mexican cartels digging through tunnels to bring in their drugs and other $hit through SoTex's backyard? I think our friends in the South have every right to stop these thugs.
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    . What are my feelings worth? Squat
    Same worth as mine as well unfortunately
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