Gun Debate thread, DO NOT POST IN THE RIP FALLED LOVED ONES, post here for arguements

[mynameisuntz]

I don't agree with those solutions. Not because those things are engrained in American culture, I just don't believe they are the cause of the mass shootings.

What do you believe leads to someone feeling so ostracized and distressed (chronically) that they actually decide the solution to alleviate their problems is to take a gun to 20 children? Most every shooter you see has certain variables in common with one another. One, being huge, is simply feeling ostracized from the rest of the group.

[jaimeruiz99]

This is not a solution to the underlying problem.

You are looking for an end to all human dysfunction. You are looking to the stars. Tis a pipe-dream.

Let me tell you: curing cancer is a hell of a lot easier than that.

[R3L3NTL3SS]

So then why do we have AR-15s? If you can't use them to hunt the only other purpose would be shooting people, unless people use them for something I'm unaware of?

Were you a crack baby or something?

It's not practical to hunt with handguns either. Everyone who owns one must just want to shoot people.

But BESIDES that, AR-15's are great for a LOT of small game animals. And they are super accurate. A lot of people dear hunt with them and make headshots.
Also, some people simply enjoy going out to the range and just shooting to spend time with family and friends. Not everyone who owns firearms has hunting or "killing people" as you say it on their minds. They like to shoot paper. Paper targets. Moron.
Stop being an absolute retard.

[anonymous]

I own three. They are incredibly expense as another poster mentioned and you have to jump through a number of hoops, apply for the tax stamp and wait for BATFE approval.

Why are automatic rifles even being discussed in relation to what happened yesterday?

Because everyone who watches the news knows that anytime a criminal has a .223 it goes straight to "fully automatic assault rifle". Even if it was a cal legal 10 round rifle pinned and welded. The news is rediculous.

[mynameisuntz]

You are looking for an end to all human dysfunction. You are looking to the stars. Tis a pipe-dream.

Let me tell you: curing cancer is a hell of a lot easier than that.

Not an end, but something that has been attained in other countries/cultures. It will never end, but it can be reduced dramatically as other societies have proven.

[ElMariachi]

I own three. They are incredibly expense as another poster mentioned and you have to jump through a number of hoops, apply for the tax stamp and wait for BATFE approval.

Why are automatic rifles even being discussed in relation to what happened yesterday?

Because the media basically called the Bushmaster that the shooter had an "M16" and people in general don't know the difference between military-grade and civilian-grade weapons

[kaizer27]

So then why do we have AR-15s? If you can't use them to hunt the only other purpose would be shooting people, unless people use them for something I'm unaware of?

I use my AR's to hunt, in 5.56 they are not great for larger game. They are excellent for small game, and they are probably the number one rifle used to hunt things such as coyote.

I use mine to punch paper and hunt coyote.

They are accurate and fairly cheap to shoot, and the light recoil allows you to fire them for as long as you want which becomes an issue with some of the larger calibers. They are great for teaching new people to shoot, my wife loves it but won't touch my hk91.

[QkFx]

[boroballa0515]

So then why do we have AR-15s? If you can't use them to hunt the only other purpose would be shooting people, unless people use them for something I'm unaware of?

i posted this earlier like on page 35...i use mine to hunt anything from varmints to deer (with different ammo it can EASILY take down a deer, just have to be a better shot) like i said in previous post, changing the ammo makes it versatile for use on smaller varmints at close range to deer/hog at long range...also is easily upgraded to hunt with scope/dot sights, and lights for at night

[kaizer27]

Because the media basically called the Bushmaster that the shooter had an "M16" and people in general don't know the difference between military-grade and civilian-grade weapons

Unless I am still on old news the bushmaster was left in the car and never even came into play, correct?

[6-SPEED]

What do you believe leads to someone feeling so ostracized and distressed (chronically) that they actually decide the solution to alleviate their problems is to take a gun to 20 children? Most every shooter you see has certain variables in common with one another. One, being huge, is simply feeling ostracized from the rest of the group.

Some people have mental disorders. Everyone isn't going to feel or think the same regardless of wealth/opportunity disparity among the classes. I believe there is a certain copy-cat element behind these shooting... these people are seeking attention. Their 15 minutes of fame even if they aren't alive to see it.

[MirinMyFlow]

Dont know if anyones posted this, but found this article interesting

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...united-states/

Cliffs:
- shooting sprees arent rare in the US
-11 of the 20 worst mass shootings in past 50 years have occurred in US
-although the US is unusually violent, its not as violent as it once was
-the south is the most violent area in the US (i lol'd)
-gun ownership is declining in the US
-"more guns" is correlated with more murders
-states having stricter gun control laws have had fewer deaths due to gun violence
-murders usually obtain their weapon legally

pics:

[jaimeruiz99]

Not an end, but something that has been attained in other countries/cultures. It will never end, but it can be reduced dramatically as other societies have proven.

How do you propose to do this.

[BrotatoChip]

Are you a crack baby or something?

It's not practical to hunt with handguns either. Everyone who owns one must just want to shoot people.

But BESIDES that, AR-15's are great for a LOT of small game animals. And they are super accurate. A lot of people dear hunt with them and make headshots. Stop being an absolute retard.

I'm talking about owning guns out of necessity, the point being there's no reason besides fun to own a gun that's not for self defense or hunting.

Obviously people own plenty of firearms that don't fall into either category and I'm asking what the rationale is for owning them? Nobody wants to give me a straight answer.

Edit - apparently you can hunt with an AR-15

[ElMariachi]

What do you believe leads to someone feeling so ostracized and distressed (chronically) that they actually decide the solution to alleviate their problems is to take a gun to 20 children? Most every shooter you see has certain variables in common with one another. One, being huge, is simply feeling ostracized from the rest of the group.

Mental illness combined with this ****ty American ideal of raising coddled children whose asses are pumped so full of sunshine that when they go out into the real world, they lose their ****ing marbles because it doesn't mesh with their imagined reality.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...esteem-problem

This is also when America's self-esteem problem began because parents and other influences on self-esteem (e.g., teachers and coaches) got the wrong messages about self-esteem from those experts. Instead of creating children with true self-esteem, our country has created a generation of children who, for all the appearances of high self-esteem, actually have little regard for themselves (because they have little on which to base their self-esteem).

Where did our society err in our failed attempts to build true self-esteem in our children? These same experts told parents that they could build their children's self-esteem by telling them how smart and talented and beautiful and incredible they were ("You're the best, Johnny!"). In other words, parents were led to believe that they could convince their children how wonderful they were. Unfortunately, life has a way of providing a reality check and children learned the hard way that they weren't as fabulous as their parents told them they were. Parents were also told to praise and reinforce and reward their children no matter what they did. The result: lower self-esteem and children who were self-centered and spoiled.

Schools and communities accepted this misguided attempt at building self-esteem by "protecting" children from failure and feeling bad about themselves. For example, school grading systems were changed. I remember between sixth and seventh grade, my middle school replaced F for failure with NI (Needs Improvement); god forbid I'd feel bad about myself for failing at something!

Youth sports made the same mistake. They eliminated scoring, winners, and losers in the belief that losing would hurt children's self-esteem. My ten-year-old niece came home one day from a soccer tournament with a ribbon that said "#1-Winner" on it. When I asked her what she did to deserve such a wonderful prize, she said that everyone got one! Children are being led to believe that they are winners and can feel good about themselves just by showing up. Definitely not the way the real world works.

American popular culture exacerbates our self-esteem problem by sending messages to children that they can find success, wealth, and celebrity without any capabilities, effort, or time ("By gosh, I deserve it right now just for being me").

I look at these mass-killers as homicidal versions of emo's. "My life is so bad, the world let me down, my family let me down, my friends let me down, I hate my life, I hate the world, life isn't meeting up to my expectations." Blah, blah blah.

[anonymous]

Cops still haven't learned from the movie theater shooting apparently. This whole thing could of been prevented if they were monitoring 4chan more. Dude posted on 4chan the day before the shooting hinting what he was going to do much like the movie theater shooter did when he shot up a movie theater.




and the movie theater shooter posting...

Holy chit is this for real?

[iiradman]

Allow me to point out a few things.
1) The article you linked is taking about murders with guns going down which it did but the number of murders did not fall by the same amount so right off the bat your source is biased and disingenuous.
2) Most gun death statistics include suicide, your source doesn't discriminate in this area.
3) The amount of violent crime there has not decreased, violent assaults have increased. Gun violence has not decreased significantly.
4) Your law was passed in response to 112 people being killed in mass shooting over the course of a decade. That is a very very low number as a percentage of population and of violent deaths as well.
5) I own 3 of those guns you said no one should have, they are awesome.
6) I'd look into it more but who really cares about australia, its a nation of fruity short wearing and overly feminized males. Wouldn't expect you to appreciate a proper firearm, a nice car or decent music.

Where violent crime has not decreased, is where the truth holds that anyone out there willing to hurt someone WILL always have the urge whether they have access to a gun or not. However, at least restricted/banned access to a firearm will stop them from fulfilling their urge in an 'effective manner'. Mass killings is what i'm talking about. Also, at least a method of killing (guns) is more-so ruled out if a person wants to do harm.



IN AUSTRALIA




This is proven here. The rates have continued to drop in recent years, i believe.

The reason Australia had such a low number is because strict gun laws were already in place, prior to EVEN stricter ones following the shooting.

I don't think you shouldn't have the right to own the gun you have (well, kinda). There is just simply NO reason to own it, other than it's fun factor.

6) I'd look into it more but who really cares about australia, its a nation of fruity short wearing and overly feminized males.

See, ughh, this is another reason this topic is hard to debate. You think taking all your guns away will make you pansy, feminized, de-shelled pu**y..It won't! This is why Australia sees America in a negative fashion. 'Gun Nuts' if you call it. I don't, but majority of Australia does see you in this way and so does a lot of the world.

Wouldn't expect you to appreciate a proper firearm, a nice car or decent music.

k.

[healthybrah]

Are you really that dense?

You can't see the difference between an AR-15 and a Ferrari? Someone has to draw the line somewhere. It's pretty clear to most people that citizens shouldn't be walking around with chemical weapons but you can still find some nutbag who insists he needs mustard gas for rat control.

Hurr durr freedom!! Yet they can't buy alcohol until the age of 21

[mynameisuntz]

Some people have mental disorders. Everyone isn't going to feel or think the same regardless of wealth/opportunity disparity among the classes. I believe there is a certain copy-cat element behind these shooting... these people are seeking attention. Their 15 minutes of fame even if they aren't alive to see it.

What creates mental disorders?

How do you propose to do this.

Do what many other countries that have more group-think culture have done. Look at some of the European countries and their rates of violence coupled with their high rates of feeling personally responsible for fellow man.

Mental illness combined with this ****ty American ideal of raising coddled children whose asses are pumped so full of sunshine that when they go out into the real world, they lose their ****ing marbles because it doesn't mesh with their imagined reality.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...esteem-problem

Well that's just not true. You think too much empathy leads to violence...? No doubt coddling and overprotection can lead to problems, but these are not the ones who are typically being violent, or who you see with this hostile externalizing behaviors. The ones you refer to are more about internalizing behaviors.

[ElMariachi]

Holy chit is this for real?

Its photo-shopped, ****ing retards are still posting BS from 4chan, every time one of these incidents happen, somebody photoshop's something to make it look like some sort of message from the killer.

[ZombieClive]

to the people arguing you dont "NEED" a .223 or 556 nato.

you are wrong on 2 fronts.

1) Yes, you do need .223 and "military style" rifles. Why? The second amendment is there for allowing citizens to defend themselves against a tyrannical government. If it ever came down to fighting against our own government (or a foreign govt invading), we as citizens NEED arms similar in power. The entire point of the second amendment is having citizens who would be able to defend themselves against a governing enemy.

2) It doesnt matter about what we need. Its what we want. We dont need baby sat by our government. The government does not have the right to safeguard every aspect of our lives. There is going to be deaths. its sad, but its true. When you have 7 billion people on this earth, theres going to be a number of those people who do bad things. Whats more valuable than our lives is our freedom, and preserving our freedom for our future generations. We dont NEED cigarettes, alcohol, etc. They kill a lot more people than school shootings. If we dont need those things, and we know that they kill people, should we ban them as well? I find it frightening that people use the argument that we dont "need" something, and that a government should have the right to take those things away from us, when we dont "need" them.

Once you start tearing apart our amendments, we become a much much much less free people. i would take the random threat of a highly unlikely death over the loss of our freedoms. every time you take a freedom away, it becomes that much easier to take away another.

[ElMariachi]

What creates mental disorders?



Do what many other countries that have more group-think culture have done. Look at some of the European countries and their rates of violence coupled with their high rates of feeling personally responsible for fellow man.



Well that's just not true. You think too much empathy leads to violence...?

I think raising our kids to think they're super special and that they're owed **** isn't a good way to go, no. What happens is that reality smashes these kids like a ton of bricks, some will survive, others will simply crawl into the fetal position and a lesser percentage will decide that its the world to blame for their problems, instead of their parents telling them a bunch of bull**** all their lives.


If you've been made to feel like you're the greatest thing since sliced bread for basically no reason other than existing, its gonna be a harsh harsh lesson when you run into the rest of the world who quite frankly doesn't give a ****.


Did you even bother reading the article?

[nightmare69]

So then why do we have AR-15s? If you can't use them to hunt the only other purpose would be shooting people, unless people use them for something I'm unaware of?

My AR is mainly used for target shooting at the range and also for hog hunting. Hogs will come out in packs and it help having a semi auto rifle to take 2-3 down at a time.

[6-SPEED]

What creates mental disorders?



Do what many other countries that have more group-think culture have done. Look at some of the European countries and their rates of violence coupled with their high rates of feeling personally responsible for fellow man.



Well that's just not true. You think too much empathy leads to violence...? No doubt coddling and overprotection can lead to problems, but these are not the ones who are typically being violent, or who you see with this hostile externalizing behaviors. The ones you refer to are more about internalizing behaviors.

The exact cause of most mental illness is not known.

[ZombieClive]

See, ughh, this is another reason this topic is hard to debate. You think taking all your guns away will make you pansy, feminized, de-shelled morons...It won't! This is why Australia sees America in a negative fashion. 'Gun Nuts' if you call it. I don't, but majority of them do and so does the rest of

You arent the "land of the free."

we are.

do what you want, you have your own problems as a nation. and btw

(http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847)
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

April 13, 2009

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

[ElMariachi]

George Carlin on parenting and kids.

George Carlin: Now, speaking of parents and speaking of bull****, two ideas that aren't always mutually exclusive, by the way, I'd like to mention a special kind of bull**** that has taken hold in this country in the last thirty to forty years. It's a form of bull**** that really can only be called "child worship". It's child worship. It's this excessive devotion to children.

George Carlin: I'm talking about today's professional parents, these obsessive diaper sniffers who are overscheduling and overmanaging their children and robbing them of their childhoods.

George Carlin: Even the simple act of playing has been taken away from children, and put on mommy's schedule in the form of "play dates". Something that should be spontaneous and free is now being rigidly planned. When does a kid ever get to sit in the yard with a stick anymore?

George Carlin: You know? Just sit there with a ****ing stick. Do today's kids even know what a stick is?

George Carlin: You sit in the yard with a ****ing stick... and you dig a ****ing hole. You know?

George Carlin: And you look at the hole, and you look at the stick... and you have a little fun. But kids don't have sticks anymore. I don't think there are any sticks left; I think they've all be recalled because of lead paint!

George Carlin: Who would have thought that one day, the manufacturing of sticks would outsourced to China?

George Carlin: Isn't this really just a sophisticated form of child abuse?

George Carlin: And speaking of that, speaking of child abuse, next up: GRADE SCHOOL! Grade school, where he won't be allowed to play tag because it encourages victimization.

George Carlin: And he won't be allowed to play dodgeball because it's exclusionary, and it promotes aggression. Standing around is still okay.

George Carlin: Standing around is still permitted, but it won't be for long, because sooner or later some kid is going to be standing around and his foot will fall asleep, and his parents will sue the school, and it will be goodbye ****ing standing around!

[mynameisuntz]

I think raising our kids to think they're super special and that they're owed **** isn't a good way to go, no. What happens if reality smashes these kids like a ton of bricks, some will survive, others will simply crawl into the fetal position and a lesser percentage will decide that its the world to blame for their problems, instead of their parents telling them a bunch of bull**** all their lives.


If you've been made to feel like you're the greatest thing since sliced bread for basically no reason other than existing, its gonna be a harsh harsh lesson when you run into the rest of the world who quite frankly doesn't give a ****.


Did you even bother reading the article?

First off, I am in graduate school for psychology and don't really pay much mind to an internet article nor give it much stock unless it has some empirical ground to stand on. For all I know, this is purely subjective and has not been replicated or found in reality. That being said, I'll still respond as though it's credible (which it is not). Here's what it/you doesn't address:

1) How is this of relevance to EXTERNALIZING BEHAVIOR? You're telling me this sets kids up to have self-esteem problems. Excellent. Correlation to the disorders we speak of in regards to this event? Or to pathology in general? All I'm seeing is that certain coddling can lead to distress later in life but I'm not seeing the correlation to externalizing behavior on a clinical level (nor internalizing, at that).

2) "Children are being led to believe that they are winners and can feel good about themselves just by showing up. Definitely not the way the real world works." - which is correct? The idea that everyone should feel good about trying and participating, or the real world? Because I can sit here and list all sorts of things that parents might do that contradict what the child will experience in the real world, but that doesn't mean the real world is correct and the parents incorrect.

3) How does this lead to mental disorders? You're talking about self-esteem. That is not a disorder of clinical relevance by itself. It often makes up a single component of a broader constellation of symptoms/problems. O it might be a single aspect of pathology, which is a highly complex underpinning to the manifestation of disorder.

The exact cause of most mental illness is not known.

Broadly speaking, we have a pretty good idea.

[jaimeruiz99]

What creates mental disorders?



Do what many other countries that have more group-think culture have done. Look at some of the European countries and their rates of violence coupled with their high rates of feeling personally responsible for fellow man.



Well that's just not true. You think too much empathy leads to violence...? No doubt coddling and overprotection can lead to problems, but these are not the ones who are typically being violent, or who you see with this hostile externalizing behaviors. The ones you refer to are more about internalizing behaviors.

I agree that the rampant individualism (brought largely upon by the Protestant faith) in the US is responsible for much of the strife there today. A fast-paced, cut-throat, largely capitalistic system has also contributed to this reality.

But there is a reason why the US population is so individualistic in comparison to most other nations such as Japan or China: they lack the diversity of ethnicities and other subdivisions as is present in the US.

The blacks stick to themselves, the whites stick to themselves, the asians stick to themselves, the muslims stick to themselves, the homosexuals stick to themselves and so on and so forth.

People tend to stay within groups and to stick to their own. This fosters a mind-set that not only extends to groups, but to the individual himself. The individual learns to become quite literally an individual.

The bipartisan nature of politics in the US has also contributed to this mindset. It causes divisions within the public. Factor in social class and you have hundreds if not thousands of unique 'groups'. Groups who suffer from the 'it's either them or us' mentality.

How do you go about uprooting 2 centuries worth of divisions? It's impossible.

[iiradman]

You arent the "land of the free."

we are.

do what you want, you have your own problems as a nation. and btw

(http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847)
AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

April 13, 2009

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Read it before,
These statistics are 100% opposite to the ones i posted. I call bull. Not necessarily yours, maybe mine. It's hard to determine if any of them are hard evidence.



After reading into it,
If BOTH of our statistics are true, that means that the NUMBER of murders has dramatically DROPPED since the introduction of gun laws. However, the 'percentage' of guns being used has risen. This has no correlation to the actually NUMBER OF FIREARM deaths. It's just a ratio.

I'll explain, with made up stats.

Before ban. In Aus

100 murders per year. 40 with guns. (40% guns)

After ban. In Aus.

50 murders per year. 25 with guns (50% guns)

Even though percentage went up (your graph), the NUMBER of people killed by guns went down (my graph). This actually makes sense, if you look at how assault charges went up. This would correlate with plummeting murder rates.

[ultimatebroski3]

It's no big deal that there are approximately 1 million abortions per year in the US, but when kids are killed by guns its a huge f'n deal.

Some of you need to rethink your stances.