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  1. #1
    Venison Warrior Footballa_19's Avatar
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    No Bench for clients

    I am not a fan of flat bench press. I don't have much of an ego in the gym like my college days, and like a lot of people, doing it wrong or with too much weight over the years has taken its toll on my shoulders. I now have taken it completely out of any client workouts. Even with good shoulder prep, I believe I would rather have clients work incline/decline on a smith machine for strength and follow with DB press on a flat bench to still hit the chest for example. Am I being too cautious?? There are so many other lifts for chest out there that put you in better positions anatomically, I don't even do flat bench in my own workouts anymore.
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    Eats carbs @ 11pm Simmo0508's Avatar
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    So because you're having a break from bench, that means your clients should as well? Strong logic.

    Give them what THEY need, not what you personally do yourself.
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    Registered User schmedes2's Avatar
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    Slight incline or decline bench is far superior as far as shoulder health is concerned. I sometimes use the flat bench if neither is available but I prefer either one of those options
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    Venison Warrior Footballa_19's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Simmo0508 View Post
    So because you're having a break from bench, that means your clients should as well? Strong logic.

    Give them what THEY need, not what you personally do yourself.
    I am sorry if that came across that way, I assumed that it is pretty common knowledge that bench press is one of the most common lift that people hurt themselves on, especially, rotator cuffs, so would I be selfish to assume that I want to protect my client as well as my job if they were to tear one?
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    Registered User SFT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schmedes2 View Post
    Slight incline or decline bench is far superior as far as shoulder health is concerned. I sometimes use the flat bench if neither is available but I prefer either one of those options
    I have ideas of my own, but what is your reasoning behind incline or decline bench being superior?
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    Eats carbs @ 11pm Simmo0508's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Footballa_19 View Post
    I am sorry if that came across that way, I assumed that it is pretty common knowledge that bench press is one of the most common lift that people hurt themselves on, especially, rotator cuffs, so would I be selfish to assume that I want to protect my client as well as my job if they were to tear one?
    Is it not your job to teach them correct technique though? They're not goin to hurt anything if they progress within reason and apply sound technique from the onset of learning the movement pattern.

    Just because someone else, or yourself, hurts from a particular movement or doesn't like an exercise, doesn't mean necessarily it should be excluded from someone's program purely on that basis.

    Say for example I hate dumbbell overheads for tri's, that doesn't mean that Bob Smith shouldn't include that in his routine if it will benefit his training and work towards his goal. Our bias should have no influence over our programming for others.

    That's creating a disservice to that person if they're missing out on something, because of your personal opinions and previous experiences with that exercise.
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    Registered User schmedes2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by SFT View Post
    I have ideas of my own, but what is your reasoning behind incline or decline bench being superior?
    Well decline trains the pecs through the ROM that they naturally want to go in; at a downward angle rather than perpendicular. Besides that, they both help keep the shoulder from getting impinged do to their slightly different ROM from the flat bench. You can probably get the same thing from not bringing your arms down all the way on the flat but I just prefer to not do it.

    Hell, between overhead presses and dips, you don't even need benching. Easier to convince someone to hand over their first born before they give up the bench though haha
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    bench press with a barbell is safer than DB press lol
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    lol @ telling your clients to do smith bench instead of BB bench. I would argue that flat BB bench is the safest and easiset out of BB, smith, Incline, and decline bench. Maybe you should learn proper form and teach it to them to avoid injury?
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  10. #10
    Who shot ya? InspecktaDeck's Avatar
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    The more you arch your bench the less stress the shoulders take. Also it helps to be fat & have a beard.
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  11. #11
    husband, father, trainer KyleAaron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schmedes2 View Post
    Slight incline or decline bench is far superior as far as shoulder health is concerned.
    Why?

    And would this same apply with a smith machine, as the OP uses?
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  12. #12
    Venison Warrior Footballa_19's Avatar
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    I think I might have given the wrong vibe to this thread, it wasn't meant to be a hate flat barbell bench speech, I just prefer to not use it. I use the smith machine strictly for incline and decline because it takes the dynamic of having to balance a barbell off the shoulder. I also make sure they use a wide grip. This way they can push heavier weight when we do strength days. Call me over-cautious, but it's just a preference. I realize I am being nit picky, but it has shown to be less injury prone in my experience.
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    Originally Posted by Footballa_19 View Post
    I think I might have given the wrong vibe to this thread, it wasn't meant to be a hate flat barbell bench speech, I just prefer to not use it. I use the smith machine strictly for incline and decline because it takes the dynamic of having to balance a barbell off the shoulder. I also make sure they use a wide grip. This way they can push heavier weight when we do strength days. Call me over-cautious, but it's just a preference. I realize I am being nit picky, but it has shown to be less injury prone in my experience.
    If you are trying to build real strength, why are you using a smith machine? All you are doing is taking the stabilizing muscle out of the equation which is going to make them more prone to injury in the long run.

    What is this supposed strength for? chances are its for every day life or sporting endevours so if you are creating imbalances in muscles this isnt going to end well.
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    Your philosophy is yours. Though it makes little sense to remove flat barbell work for shoulder health reasons, and in the same breath add in smith press work. While I am not on the smith hate squad, I wouldn't use it for pressing motions (save maybe decline work).

    Agree with Perfit on removal of stabilization work. Working stabilizers will make you less prone to injury. I would at least have them press off the smith.
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    Registered User InsanelyFit's Avatar
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    Progressing them onto heavier weights will ensure minimal risk of injury. You do not like benching or have had a bad experience with the exericse so you remove it for your clients. That is not fair.

    You say in your experience. It is like seeing someone hurt their back from a 100kg squat. Are you going to start telling people to not squat over 100kgs? Or will you educate them and coach them on how to improve their squat and stay safe? And you said it yourself, in college you did the exercise wrong and/or used too much weight.

    I absolutely hate doing benches/squats/deadlifts etc on a smith machine, unless of course the client requires it.
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    husband, father, trainer KyleAaron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Footballa_19 View Post
    I use the smith machine strictly for incline and decline because it takes the dynamic of having to balance a barbell off the shoulder.
    So to reduce the risk on injury, you remove the effect of strengthening the stablising muscles? Hmm....

    What happens when they must apply their strength outside the gym against something which is not carried along by straight and smoothly-lubricated rails?

    A bench press with the bar brought to below the pecs, especially with a closer grip, will cause less stress to the rotator cuff. Even better, get them to do pulling and overhead pressing movements, too, this opens up their shoulder and reduces the risk of impingement.

    Let's face it, most impingements are caused by desk work, followed by bench pressing with no pulling movements. Bench press as part of a complete routine, not so often.
    Last edited by KyleAaron; 12-14-2012 at 01:45 AM.
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    Registered User MichaelCJ's Avatar
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    Good grief. I'm very glad I never resorted to hiring a PT. A lot of them seem to be like that. Or even worse...

    But by all means, strap them to the smith machine, make your money, and whatever else you do, definitely DON'T get them to do one of the very best upper body strength-building lifts ever.

    Par for the course.
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    Originally Posted by MichaelCJ View Post
    definitely DON'T get them to do one of the very best upper body strength-building lifts ever.

    Par for the course.
    FWIW, I think in terms of general strength (for the unconditioned), I don't think flat BB bench is a must. Incline BB or DB work are just as good.
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    good lord. what has been read.
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    Originally Posted by MichaelCJ View Post
    Good grief. I'm very glad I never resorted to hiring a PT. A lot of them seem to be like that. Or even worse...

    But by all means, strap them to the smith machine, make your money, and whatever else you do, definitely DON'T get them to do one of the very best upper body strength-building lifts ever.

    Par for the course.
    Just because I don't do flat bench doesn't mean there aren't many exercises that a client can't do to supplement the stabilization portion of flat barbell bench. The beauty of lifting is that there are unlimited exercises that people can do to achieve goals, and there is no one right way to do it. I am living proof you don't need bench to have a good chest/physique. No need to go after all PT's just because your opinion is different.
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    Why?

    And would this same apply with a smith machine, as the OP uses?
    The ROM just helps keeps the shoulders from becoming impinged. There's just much more chance of it happening on flat so I prefer to do a slight decline or slight incline instead. I don't know about the smith machine I never really use it
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    husband, father, trainer KyleAaron's Avatar
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    The Smith machine doesn't change the range of motion. You can restrict that on barbell bench, too.

    Though you're stupid if you do. Any movement should be done to the fullest possible range of motion for that individual. If you think bench press is inherently injurious, then your understanding of shoulder anatomy is limited. I already noted that the movement can be adjusted to reduce the chances of impingement, and that in any case impingement from bench pressing properly in combination with other appropriate movements - it's fcking rare.

    I'm guessing you're the same guys who have people do partial squats with the pad on the bar because deep squats are bad for the knees?

    Bench press, like any single exercise, is not essential. But it is not inherently injurious, if done properly. Bret Contreras thinks deep squats don't engage the glutes. Mike Boyle thinks they risk injury, which strangely split squats do not. And a trainer at my gym thinks deadlifts are bad for the back. And so on. Many trainers and coaches confuse their own inability to coach a movement effectively and safely with that movement being inherently ineffective and unsafe.

    Learn to teach correct movement. This is after the job of a personal trainer.
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    Registered User schmedes2's Avatar
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    Quite the big jump from changing the angle of a flat bench to "I'm guessing you're the same guys who have people do partial squats with the pad on the bar because deep squats are bad for the knees?" wouldn't you say?

    As I noted, the flat bench is fine if you teach proper movement. But there are plenty of people who do get pain from the flat bench but can do a slight incline or slight decline pain free. Locking the shoulder blades back is fine and keeps them from becoming impinged on the top portion but you still have a lot of stress at the bottom of the movement on the shoulders, even keeping your elbows tight into your body. The ROM of the slight incline or slight decline prevents this from happening since it's shorter.

    It's like when people say overhead presses should always rest on your upper chest. It will rest there naturally for some people. For others, the bar will float just above the body without touching it. If you force it down below your natural ROM, that will just put a lot of stress on the shoulders. Same reason parallel grip presses with dumbbells are easier on the shoulder; natural ROM
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  24. #24
    World's Strongest Model b~rad's Avatar
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    Maybe you could learn how to perform the flat bench press yourself properly and you won't have any problems? Just because you did it wrong and hurt yourself doesn't mean everyone else shouldn't do it. People hurt themselves on squats and deads as well. Does that mean they shouldn't do them?? NO, it means they should learn how to do them correctly. I've benched heavy for 12 years and have zero shoulder problems. I was lucky enough to learn from an Olympic weightlifter and powerlifter and bench the correct way from the start. It's something that you're not going to find in an ACE manual or NSCA.
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    husband, father, trainer KyleAaron's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by schmedes2 View Post
    Quite the big jump from changing the angle of a flat bench to "I'm guessing you're the same guys who have people do partial squats with the pad on the bar because deep squats are bad for the knees?" wouldn't you say?
    No. Because -
    1. it's not just incline/decline, but on the Smith machine, which totally changes the movement
    2. there's not just "I prefer not to bench press", or "my clients can do without it," which is fine, but "nobody should bench press," which is stupid
    3. the same sorts of arguments that are made about the bench press and shoulders are made about squats and knees; these arguments come from people who don't know how to coach the movements
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    i use all forms of exercises for chest

    from bench press at all angles to pullovers to even hindu/clapping/staggered pushups



    why not do them all if youre able?
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  27. #27
    Registered User lajoo's Avatar
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    Depends,if your clients are athletes,then bench press is very beneficial.

    You don't need to bench for a big chest.
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    Registered User schmedes2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KyleAaron View Post
    No. Because -
    1. it's not just incline/decline, but on the Smith machine, which totally changes the movement
    2. there's not just "I prefer not to bench press", or "my clients can do without it," which is fine, but "nobody should bench press," which is stupid
    3. the same sorts of arguments that are made about the bench press and shoulders are made about squats and knees; these arguments come from people who don't know how to coach the movements
    1. I said I don't use the smith machine
    2. I believe the slight incline or decline is superior for shoulder health
    3. Show me someone that does a bench 100% with perfect form every time, especially on those last reps. They neither once rounds their shoulders at the top nor get down a little too low for their own ROM? Ever? This puts the load on the soft tissue of the joint. While squatting past parallel is good, doing those things will very much hurt your shoulder in the long term as has been proven over and over again. Cue all you want, clients won't always have us around and we don't usually have our own coach to ensure perfection every time either.
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  29. #29
    Registered User FinanFitness's Avatar
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    2 pulls for every press. Along with plenty of shoulder prehab. None of my clients have had any issues.
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    surgery on both shoulders to repair labrum and rotator cuff (football injuries) and bench has never hurt me

    if you tuck your elbows and bring it down to lower chest youre much safer than flared elbows
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