The Official K.O.H.T. V2 Thread

[traineeh]

lol you negged me for asking a simple question? wow you really are a douchebag lolll

[EricKanevskiy]

lol you negged me for asking a simple question? wow you really are a douchebag lolll

Strong rep beg.

[BradCathie]

Strong understanding of what a compound movement is. Just because you don't do isolation work every time you lift doesn't mean you are not working it. With all the back and chest work on "POWER" day, he is working all his shoulders and arms as well. While I like a x2 or x3 frequency, I disagree with the sentiment that a novice needs more than one day a week of direct arm work.

So because a compound movement such as bench press indirectly targets triceps and anterior deltoids, I shouldn't have to add in additional tricep or anterior delt exercises? Compound movements that indirectly hit muscles are not sufficient which is why the isolation exercises are there. You think a barbell row is going to fully hit the rear delts or biceps just because it's a compound exercise? Even taking arms out of the equation you need to compensate for rear delts, traps, etc. As I've said, as much as they might slightly help with frequency; that's not the point of this routine, the point is to directly hit every muscle properly 3x a week.

So you are calling the creator of the program uninspired and lazy? That's the type of person you want writing a program for you? I am not dismantling the program based on his experience, Eric is the one trying to use anecdotal evidence to support his work. Either you use anecodotal evidence to support what you have accomplished, or you don't. You don't get to pick and chose.

For a condescending *******... you have no clue wtf you're talking about.

Wut. I said if someone doing a program is too lazy to learn how to complete lifts with proper form (such as in Eric's) it's not his fault. Your whole argument, aside from Eric's experience (or lack there of), seems to be that people won't learn how to lift with proper form on Eric's routine. What I'm saying is that it's not up to Eric to cater for people if they're lazy; they have to find the willpower to learn and shouldn't have to be spoon fed.

[Jasonk282]

No, because I am not a powerlifter, nor have I trained for 15 years.

The fact of the matter is that the principles behind my program are based on science and logic, not personal anecdotes. However, if you want to discuss my progress, I gained over 25 pounds of muscle in my first year of lifting. Nobody else in this thread can say the same.

You completely missed the point that he was making.

[EricKanevskiy]

You completely missed the point that he was making.

Bro, why do you keep posting pictures of random powerlifters?

You're 34 years old and are spending your free time hating on a guy less than half your age who has accomplished more than you. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this.

[MaCK123]

what day/s would you do conventional deadlifts on?

[EricKanevskiy]

what day/s would you do conventional deadlifts on?

Personally, I do 1 set of deadlifts at the start of the full body day, then do the chest work, then the leg work, and everything else as written in the program from there.

[GinjaNinja85]

>"Your program sucks and you know nothing about creating a program."
>"How did you get so big on this program? I'd never get that big without steroids."

strong logic

Strong cliffs. You have overdone the exercise selection. Not many people would disagree with that. Personally it WOULD be impossible for me to grow that quickly without steroids. You're a growing kid, something you fail to grasp the concept of. You should go away, train some natural bodybuilders to competition success, THEN come back and talk like you are. You're way above your station boy.

[Whitekoala]

Personally, I do 1 set of deadlifts at the start of the full body day, then do the chest work, then the leg work, and everything else as written in the program from there.

Seriously eric, you have one of the greatest transformations ever on bodybuilding.com.

I mean at the age of 16 you managed to put on a ton of weight, even if you were going through puberty and your hormones were raging like phuck. That doesn't matter.

With the progress you have shown, as well as your experience, i would rather take a program written by you any day over a guy like dave tate or jim wendler.

I mean look at Jim Wendler dude was an absolute pussy. What did he squat like 1,000 lbs or something. Man screw that, u are putting up what 275lbs? 280lbs, and thats not even a 1 rep max for you, your 1/4 squatting that 280lbs for 5 phucking reps. Ya 5 reps. Insane.

Seriously bro, do you have any tips at all to help me increase muscle mass or strength?

[-Lucifer]

You're 34 years old and are spending your free time hating on a guy less than half your age who has accomplished more than you. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this.

No one's hating on you, kid. You post something on a discussion board and there will be people that criticize it.

I'll say again, just because you've made good progress doesn't mean you know squat about creating your own programme. If every teenager did that, we'd have more routines/programmes than lifters.

[NZninja101]

I'm loving the content of this thread

[timmzzy1]

Seriously eric, you have one of the greatest transformations ever on bodybuilding.com.

I mean at the age of 16 you managed to put on a ton of weight, even if you were going through puberty and your hormones were raging like phuck. That doesn't matter.

With the progress you have shown, as well as your experience, i would rather take a program written by you any day over a guy like dave tate or jim wendler.

I mean look at Jim Wendler dude was an absolute pussy. What did he squat like 1,000 lbs or something. Man screw that, u are putting up what 275lbs? 280lbs, and thats not even a 1 rep max for you, your 1/4 squatting that 280lbs for 5 phucking reps. Ya 5 reps. Insane.

Seriously bro, do you have any tips at all to help me increase muscle mass or strength?

was gonna rage, but then read the rest of it

[EricKanevskiy]

Seriously eric, you have one of the greatest transformations ever on bodybuilding.com.

I mean at the age of 16 you managed to put on a ton of weight, even if you were going through puberty and your hormones were raging like phuck. That doesn't matter.

With the progress you have shown, as well as your experience, i would rather take a program written by you any day over a guy like dave tate or jim wendler.

I mean look at Jim Wendler dude was an absolute pussy. What did he squat like 1,000 lbs or something. Man screw that, u are putting up what 275lbs? 280lbs, and thats not even a 1 rep max for you, your 1/4 squatting that 280lbs for 5 phucking reps. Ya 5 reps. Insane.

Seriously bro, do you have any tips at all to help me increase muscle mass or strength?

Thanks for posting, Whitewolf.

[LegosInMyEgos]

Are you going to respond to specifics at all?

Because fundamental research into the motor development of beginners completely contradicts your idea that 15 exercises per workout could in any way be anything resembling optimal in a routine. That and the idea of limiting the exposure of an exercise to 2 sets, seems like an amazing way to completely phuck yourself up by not developing your motor patterns properly when you're a novice and most malleable.

I know you you love the idea of protein synthesis, but its not relevant at all, more protein synthesis doesn't have any direct correlation to the amount of muscle you're going to build, endurance runners can have massive elevations of protein synthesis post workout, but its meaningless because its not relevant to the context of hypertrophy.

I know you keep saying your routine is supported by research, but in reality its contradicted by virtually every Ph.D in the field of exercise physiology who has published literature on the science of strength training, most importantly Zatsiorsky and Verkhoshansky, possibly the 2 most contemporary scientists in the field.

[acrawlingchaos]

snip

I get what his point is, and disagree. You can't convince me that a novice built up enough of a base to even determine if they have a lagging body part. A novice curling 3 times a week is retarded.

Wut. I said if someone doing a program is too lazy to learn how to complete lifts with proper form (such as in Eric's) it's not his fault. Your whole argument, aside from Eric's experience (or lack there of), seems to be that people won't learn how to lift with proper form on Eric's routine. What I'm saying is that it's not up to Eric to cater for people if they're lazy; they have to find the willpower to learn and shouldn't have to be spoon fed.

If you consider Eric's squat to be a proper squat, tell me know. That way I know not to bother responding to you anymore. I don't think you understand what I mean when "learn" (meaning neural efficiency, mind muscle connection etc). It isn't a matter of being lazy.

Brad is a frequent poster in the Teen Bodybuilding section. He's not allowed to ask me questions? Wot.

:yawn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_(person)

You're 34 years old and are spending your free time hating on a guy less than half your age who has accomplished more than you. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this.

The problem you are having, is on an open forum, you can't be selective about who is able to respond to you. You are much like a lot of these other fitness gurus. You censor out any negative remarks to hide your detractors.

Even here, all you seem to do is dodge difficult questions with funny photos. How in the world do you expect anyone to respect that?

.....

Seriously bro.... you need to let the blood rush out your unit. You're man crush on Eric is disturbing.

Strong rep beg.

What does it say about you, that the only person your willing to neg is the guy who doesn't even have 100 rep points. He even asked a legit questions.....

Let me ask, where is your research (and I'm not watching your ****ing movie)? Studies or negs!!!!

[EricKanevskiy]

What does it say about you, that the only person your willing to neg is the guy who doesn't even have 100 rep points. He even asked a legit questions.....

Let me ask, where is your research (and I'm not watching your ****ing movie)? Studies or negs!!!!

I should neg more people? Ok. Went ahead and negged you as well.

Studies are in the description box as previously stated.

[timmzzy1]

No, because I am not a powerlifter, nor have I trained for 15 years.

The fact of the matter is that the principles behind my program are based on science and logic, not personal anecdotes. However, if you want to discuss my progress, I gained over 25 pounds of muscle in my first year of lifting. Nobody else in this thread can say the same.

lol, i can say i gained the same (actually more). the only reason you grew so fast is because you went from ridiculously skinny to actually eating a lot and training. and the only reason your against personal anecdote in regards to training is because you have none yourself

[acrawlingchaos]

I should neg more people? Ok. Went ahead and negged you as well.

Studies are in the description box as previously stated.

So in other words, you can't intelligently defend your own program, and insist that people wade through a sea of bullsh*t to find something you lined?

Strong "can't respond to key points".








Negged back and gotcha on recharge.

Are you going to respond to specifics at all?

No brah... that's how people end up looking foolish. I wouldn't take that chance in his shoes either.

[EricKanevskiy]

So in other words, you can't intelligently defend your own program, and insist that people wade through a sea of bullsh*t to find something you lined?

Strong "can't respond to key points".

Negged back and gotcha on recharge.

Considering the intelligence level you're displaying, that's the most intelligent response you deserve.

[FeelTheFear]

Seriously eric, you have one of the greatest transformations ever on bodybuilding.com.

I mean at the age of 16 you managed to put on a ton of weight, even if you were going through puberty and your hormones were raging like phuck. That doesn't matter.

With the progress you have shown, as well as your experience, i would rather take a program written by you any day over a guy like dave tate or jim wendler.

I mean look at Jim Wendler dude was an absolute pussy. What did he squat like 1,000 lbs or something. Man screw that, u are putting up what 275lbs? 280lbs, and thats not even a 1 rep max for you, your 1/4 squatting that 280lbs for 5 phucking reps. Ya 5 reps. Insane.

Seriously bro, do you have any tips at all to help me increase muscle mass or strength?

Thanks for posting, Whitewolf.

[acrawlingchaos]

Considering the intelligence level you're displaying, that's the most intelligent response you deserve.

Because I asked for sources? :thumbsup:

[xSup3r]

Seriously eric, you have one of the greatest transformations ever on bodybuilding.com.

I mean at the age of 16 you managed to put on a ton of weight, even if you were going through puberty and your hormones were raging like phuck. That doesn't matter.

With the progress you have shown, as well as your experience, i would rather take a program written by you any day over a guy like dave tate or jim wendler.

I mean look at Jim Wendler dude was an absolute pussy. What did he squat like 1,000 lbs or something. Man screw that, u are putting up what 275lbs? 280lbs, and thats not even a 1 rep max for you, your 1/4 squatting that 280lbs for 5 phucking reps. Ya 5 reps. Insane.

Seriously bro, do you have any tips at all to help me increase muscle mass or strength?

yeah i mean going through puberty is like taking anabolic steroids and also wendler and dave tate only trained for what, 5 years at least? right?
right?

[GinjaNinja85]

My phone won't play the video. Can you link the sources?

[EricKanevskiy]

My phone won't play the video. Can you link the sources?

Absolutely.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...ass-gains.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8563679
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/conten...e2=tf_ipsecsha

[-Lucifer]

OP
Why won't you respond to Legos' posts? He brought up some good points.

[AmazinJason]

This is idiotic. Did you even read the studies you posted on your video? How do they even support the design of your program at all?

Study #1: Lyle McDonald's Article

Even Lyle McDonald says that 2x per week frequency is the best.

For most applications, for the average trainee, I think hitting each muscle group somewhere between twice per week or a minimum of every 5th day yields about optimal results. Which is best for a given individual depends on individual recovery and how often they can be in the gym.

Also, the fact that you have so many different exercises isn't even supported by Lyle's article.

An additional potential benefit to a higher frequency of training, and this is especially true for beginning training, is that performing movements more frequently tends to improve motor learning. And since a majority of the adaptations that occur initially to training are neural in nature, the faster you can get through them adaptation, the sooner you can get into real growth.

So why do you have 30 different exercises again?


Study #2: The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise

Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control.

Problem #1: Sample size of SIX people.

MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.

Problem #2: They only do the testing for the arms. Really? Just the arms? Because MPS in the arms is definitely going to be the same for MPS in other muscles in your body.


Study #3: Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans

Mixed muscle protein fractional synthesis rate (FSR) and fractional breakdown rate (FBR) were examined after an isolated bout of either concentric or eccentric resistance exercise. Subjects were eight untrained volunteers (4 males, 4 females).

Again, a small sample size. This time, EIGHT people. Oh, and they were untrained. This definitely has perfect carryover to someone who might have been training for a few months or even a few years.

Mixed muscle protein FSR and FBR were determined using primed constant infusions of [2H5]phenylalanine and 15N-phenylalanine, respectively. Subjects were studied in the fasted state on four occasions: at rest and 3, 24, and 48 h after a resistance exercise bout. Exercise was eight sets of eight concentric or eccentric repetitions at 80% of each subject's concentric 1 repetition maximum. There was no significant difference between contraction types for either FSR, FBR, or net balance (FSR minus FBR). Exercise resulted in significant increases above rest in muscle FSR at all times: 3 h = 112%, 24 h = 65%, 48 h = 34% (P < 0.01). Muscle FBR was also increased by exercise at 3 h (31%; P < 0.05) and 24 h (18%; P < 0.05) postexercise but returned to resting levels by 48 h. Muscle net balance was significantly increased after exercise at all time points [(in %/h) rest = -0.0573 +/- 0.003 (SE), 3 h = -0.0298 +/- 0.003, 24 h = -0.0413 +/- 0.004, and 48 h = -0.0440 +/- 0.005], and was significantly different from zero at all time points (P < 0.05). There was also a significant correlation between FSR and FBR (r = 0.88, P < 0.001). We conclude that exercise resulted in an increase in muscle net protein balance that persisted for up to 48 h after the exercise bout and was unrelated to the type of muscle contraction performed.

That's great, but again, how useful is this study for someone who has even a slight bit of training experience? These are completely untrained individuals who do not know how to fully contract their muscles and are not even capable of utilizing their muscles (the little they have) to anything close to their fullest potential.


There is nothing wrong with 2x per week frequency. Most of the top natural bodybuilders do a push/pull/leg/off split to hit each of their muscles every 4 days. Your "optimal" routine tries to stand out by adding in a full body day and having 3x per week frequency, but your studies do not even support this idea. And plus, why not just have 6 consecutive days of upper/lower workouts with the 7th day off, instead of adding in that full body, if you are trying to get 3x per week frequency? I know why: because in an effort to make your routine "different", you made the program the way you did and then added the "optimal" tag to it.

[timmzzy1]

This is idiotic. Did you even read the studies you posted on your video? How do they even support the design of your program at all?

Study #1: Lyle McDonald's Article

Even Lyle McDonald says that 2x per week frequency is the best.



Also, the fact that you have so many different exercises isn't even supported by Lyle's article.



So why do you have 30 different exercises again?


Study #2: The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise


Problem #1: Sample size of SIX people.


Problem #2: They only do the testing for the arms. Really? Just the arms? Because MPS in the arms is definitely going to be the same for MPS in other muscles in your body.


Study #3: Mixed muscle protein synthesis and breakdown after resistance exercise in humans


Again, a small sample size. This time, EIGHT people. Oh, and they were untrained. This definitely has perfect carryover to someone who might have been training for a few months or even a few years.


That's great, but again, how useful is this study for someone who has even a slight bit of training experience? These are completely untrained individuals who do not know how to fully contract their muscles and are not even capable of utilizing their muscles (the little they have) to anything close to their fullest potential.


There is nothing wrong with 2x per week frequency. Most of the top natural bodybuilders do a push/pull/leg/off split to hit each of their muscles every 4 days. Your "optimal" routine tries to stand out by adding in a full body day and having 3x per week frequency, but your studies do not even support this idea. And plus, why not just have 6 consecutive days of upper/lower workouts with the 7th day off, instead of adding in that full body, if you are trying to get 3x per week frequency? I know why: because in an effort to make your routine "different", you made the program the way you did and then added the "optimal" tag to it.

lol, good luck getting a response

[TheJediBrah]

OP
Why won't you respond to Legos' posts? He brought up some good points.

wtf happened to your reps?

[GinjaNinja85]

I also noticed the 1st article said to train each muscle group between every 5th day and twice a week. Are you sure that's the right study? It doesn't seem to support your program.

I'm also interested in what Legos said about MPS being largely irrelevant. Anyone care to elaborate on that?

[Jasonk282]

Bro, why do you keep posting pictures of random powerlifters?

You're 34 years old and are spending your free time hating on a guy less than half your age who has accomplished more than you. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this.

Do your program for the next 15 years and if you are bigger and stronger than Wendler or Carter then you'll be legit. Right now you are a 16 year old with 1 year thinking you know everything...not a shock with teenagers.

Also when you post in teh open forum you are going to get a lot or responses...most of them way more intelligent than yours.

It's funny that you think you have accomplished more than me in your training...at least when I squat 280lbs I hit the correct depth.

BTW...how many powerlifting competitions or bodybuilding competitions did you enter in 2012? I entered 2 powerlifting competitions.

Maybe try posting your chit over on the teen forum...you are clearly way over your head and out of your league in the open forum.

Also...LOL @ 25 pound of muscle in a year...thatr's some funny chit. 25lb of bodyweight yes, but I can assure you it was not 25lbs of pure muscle.