Machines vs. Free Weights

[RoyKr]

As long as you're doing your compounds and not jumping on some silly isolation machine as soon as you walk into the gym then you're probably gonna do fine. Not a fan of machines myself though.

[DJAuto]

Both categories have been integral parts of my routine since day one. Specifically, I'm a huge fan of the Hammer Strength line of equipment.

[InspecktaDeck]

Machines are not necessarily worthless. If a novice lifter has just completed bench press, incline, barbell rows, chin ups and wants to work their rear delts on the machine rather than using free weights, are they wrong? You need to take it easy with the absolutist attitude, and this is coming from someone who hardly uses machines.

"rear delts" is a very specific muscle. Do you know why people work very specific muscles? Because those muscles are lagging. Does somebody with little to no lifting experience need to worry about lagging muscles? No. Everything is lagging, therefore they dont need to work on isolation movements to start out. But of course you knew all this right?

Jesus christ I just saw your 9000 posts since last year. I hate to ad hominem but do you do anything besides misc *******?

[NZninja101]

"rear delts" is a very specific muscle. Do you know why people work very specific muscles? Because those muscles are lagging. Does somebody with little to no lifting experience need to worry about lagging muscles? No. Everything is lagging, therefore they dont need to work on isolation movements to start out. But of course you knew all this right?

For a beginner, everything is basically lagging.


But why would you only do compounds, only to almost certainly have lagging side and rear delts, calves, biceps and triceps in the future? Surely you would implement them immediately?

Jesus christ I just saw your 9000 posts since last year. I hate to ad hominem but do you do anything besides misc *******?

Well I sometimes post in the exercise section.


Also, if you want to get me on R/C too but don't want to stress with a new comment, it's 'you're'. 'Your an idiot' would imply that I have in my possession, something called 'an idiot'. My an idiot is confused.

[Eleazar18]

Use both.

I approve this post.

[samit]

i start with free weights and just add 1 machine workout in the end to isolate the muscle

but must say old school training is the best.
i dont fancy the machines .. and guess what im still growing

[ThickAsABrick]

But why would you only do compounds, only to almost certainly have lagging side and rear delts, calves, biceps and triceps in the future? Surely you would implement them immediately?

Someone training for size should. Throw shrugs into the mix too. The compounds only crowd are usually confused PLer types or those new to training.

[StrongJake]

Best Combination as follows: Use body weight, free weights, then machines come in lesser times and exercises.

I have a well equipped Home Gym, but I don't use much machines. My exercises consist on usage of benches, barbells, Olympic bar, dumbbells, weights, power tools..etc
I prefer most of the times to use the Olympic bar for Squats than the Smith Machine.
Basically, I use machines for the benefit of the pulley in back exercises, some biceps & triceps specific targeting exercises, and mostly for the leg exercises where I see that machines are a must, only squats are the best to be used without machines for legs exercises, also for back exercises but you still can use many free weights and body weights with a hanging bar too for it.

Who says that machines are useless, doesn't know what saying for sure but also who base exercises on it and only it or mostly it, also doesn't know what doing.

Most importantly, it all depends on the body builder body and bodybuilding professional coaches knows that well.
Some bodies adapt to machines better than free weights but I believe all bodies can adapt to body weight exercises if the BB is willing & determined to do that and also believe that can improve from that.
I know many BB's who developed their chest by using machines after many tries with free weights but no hope and also know many others who developed their chest using free weights, dumbbells..etc But still this or that, combination is the best.
You must try to know what works best with your body, do not make presumptions before trying..
There's nothing that's 100% or even 80-90% right for everyone.
Do what you feel works best for you and ignore some people stuck thoughts and minds about this and only these are the best exercises & equipment.

[Engineer_Guy]

For a beginner, everything is basically lagging.

But why would you only do compounds, only to almost certainly have lagging side and rear delts, calves, biceps and triceps in the future? Surely you would implement them immediately?

You can't assume those groups will be lagging through compounds. A good beginner routine should cover just about everything through compounds. Once this is done for a while, it should be made clear what accessory work will be needed. Everyone has different genetics and body structures. And FWIW biceps are probably the toughest thing on that list to hit well through compounds, so if anything, curls are the only isolation I'd have a beginner even consider from the very start.

[ThickAsABrick]

You can't assume those groups will be lagging through compounds. A good beginner routine should cover just about everything through compounds. Once this is done for a while, it should be made clear what accessory work will be needed. Everyone has different genetics and body structures. And FWIW biceps are probably the toughest thing on that list to hit well through compounds, so if anything, curls are the only isolation I'd have a beginner even consider from the very start.

People training for size should perform basic massbuilding exercise from the start, which include exercises like the ones he mentioned. Terms like "accessory" mean fck all to BB types, because these exercises aren't an accessory to a lift, because that isn't the goal. The goal is size, not assisting the weak link in a lift. Do the exercises that have the optimal resistance curve for developing muscle. Some of those are isos. Pigeonholing things into compound vs. iso is for fcking amateur lifters who don't know what they're doing or have some powelifter's mentality stuck up their ass.

[Engineer_Guy]

People training for size should perform basic massbuilding exercise from the start, which include exercises like the ones he mentioned.

Every exercises can be a "mass builder". More often I hear this term applied to deadlifts and squats though.

Terms like "accessory" mean fck all to BB types, because these exercises aren't an accessory to a lift, because that isn't the goal. The goal is size, not assisting the weak link in a lift. Do the exercises that have the optimal resistance curve for developing muscle. Some of those are isos.

Accessories assist a lift because they build up lagging muscle groups. They are done specifically for hypertrophy. Bodybuilders certainly include additional exercises to build up lagging muscle groups, you may not call it "accessory" but it's the same concept.

Pigeonholing things into compound vs. iso is for fcking amateur lifters who don't know what they're doing or have some powelifter's mentality stuck up their ass.

I'm not trying to make this a compounds vs isolation thing. It's about optimal training and being realistic. A natty beginner only needs a low to moderate amount of volume to see their maximal hypertrophic gains. This means adding more exercises doesn't necessarily mean more mass for a beginner. The body is only going to respond to so much volume and will only grow so much at a time. I don't like to waste time and energy so I don't think including a bunch of isolations from the very beginning is a wise use of time or energy when you don't even know if you're getting any additional benefits. If a beginner is training 3-4x a week and focusing heavily on the basic compounds as they should, they likely already pushing their training time high enough and should be hitting every muscle group 2-3x a week. Of course, you may disagree with that training methodology too.

Believing that focusing on compounds is wise has nothing to do with "powerlifting mentality".

[medjen]

+ freaking this. I am disappointed that this is the case.

Really? It's about par for the course, I'd say.

[midcoastking33]

Don't a lot of machines (smith being most common) nerf the eccentric contraction for a given lift? Seems like that would be detrimental for hypertrophy

That being said I can see an advantage for machines that hasn't been brushed on yet is that they aren't very metabolically taxing. So say for example adding leg extensions toward the end of a leg session would allow the trainee to bump volume without the coordination/energy burden of a split squat

[ThickAsABrick]

More often I hear this term applied to deadlifts and squats though.

Probably because you've spent too much time in the WP.

[ThickAsABrick]

Eng, here is an explanation of what I was referring to:

First, it is better to think of BASICS as opposed to COMPOUNDS.

BASIC exercises are exercises that work the muscle in it's mid-range, where maximum growth and strength occur. Exercises like BB curls, Tricep extensions, Shrugs, Calf Raises are not "compound" (in the gym sense) but are certainly basics. Conversely, a Nautilus Decline Press is a compound exercises but is not a basic size/strength builder.
.

No, no. no. Compounds are where it's at especially for a newb. They will work every group possible and then some. Should wait a few months to find weaknesses and see what needs shaped.

A compound exercise has no virtue of it's own. I said BASICS not ISOLATION/COMPOUNDS. BASICS are not "shaping" exercises.

There is no need to rethink this, the people that came before did all the figuring for you. That's why BASIC exercises are....BASIC exercises.

But since people won't listen, they need a technical explanation.

By YOUR logic, a Nautilus Decline press is the same as a Dumbbell Decline Press in terms of effect and appropriateness for a beginner; both are compound exercises.

This comes up so often, I actually saved a response I typed previously to this:

To me it is pretty simple.

Almost foolproof.

I feel like a broken record saying it.

Three things make an exercise a size builder (BASIC) for any given individual:

Two of them are for anyone, the third, for that individual.

1. High NMA or neuromuscular activation. The nervous system must react strongly to the movement. Accomplished by doing exercises that move the body through space, or with BBs, or with DBs. Free weight isolation exercises have as high or a higher NMA than machine compounds.*

2. Maximized Actin/Myosin pairing. Muscles exert their greatest force from about 110 of joint angle. Since the more myosin/actin pairings are optimal (read, lined up) the more force the muscle can exert, this explains why some isolation exercises are size builders, and some aren't. E.G. BB curls ARE, concentration curls ARE NOT. Lying Extensions ARE, skullcrushers ARE, kickbacks ARE NOT. Shrugs ARE. Calve raises ARE. Wrist curls ARE. **

3. For an individual, the given exercise must have enough RELATIVE isolation to elicit protein degradation on the target. If you are doing rows, and not hitting your lats, you need to find a different exercise. Going through the motions doesn't work. This is why the bench press builds huge pecs in some, but not in others. ***



*explains why leg extensions, despite being more direct, do not build as much size in the quads as squats. Why leg presses don't build as much size as squats.


**explains also WHY non-optimal isos DO elicit certain targeting effects-i.e. DB flyes-outer pecs, Cable crossovers-inner pecs, etc. ALSO explains why chins and rows DON'T build great biceps for many (exercises start with biceps in or toward contracted position-not good ratcheting action for most myosin/actin pairs)

***explains why lateral raises are needed by most for lateral deltoids-presses simply don't target the area enough to elicit a strong response.

Cliff notes:

Not all compounds are basics.

An exercise is a BASIC exercise if it targets the muscle with optimum myosin/actin pairing-the MIDRANGE.

The exercise must also elicit a strong neural response (NMA).

It would be silly to not do the few exercises that are Class 2 levers because they are not "compounds"-Calf Raises, Wrist Curls, Shrugs...

My bad. You did say basics and I was just assuming this person wanted to increase strength which may not even be the case. Sorry, Defiant1, I goofed up and misunderstood on this one.

[Dawald07]

I personally like free weights more because your not only using the muscles to do the exercise but your also recruiting those muscles to stabilize the weight. And if your that worried about form just use less weight to start. Once you perfect your form then go from there. I do still use machines to work certain body parts I want to isolate though
like my biceps for example.

[barryriley]

It depends what you mean by machines. Cable machines can be used for some decent exercises that free weights can't accommodate. However, if you're talking about using a chest press machine rather than a bench and some dumbbells I'd have to ask...why? Non-cable machines work in a way that they use a very specific muscle to achieve the lift. There is no stabilising or other movement - just straight back and forth. For a beginner I can see this being a poor way to start when compared to using free weights. I would imagine that you could build up to doing a full stack of weight on a chest press machine over time and move on to using a bench one day to find out you're actually as weak as a kitten since you've never had to employ balance.

[InspecktaDeck]

I'm not trying to make this a compounds vs isolation thing. It's about optimal training and being realistic. A natty beginner only needs a low to moderate amount of volume to see their maximal hypertrophic gains. This means adding more exercises doesn't necessarily mean more mass for a beginner. The body is only going to respond to so much volume and will only grow so much at a time. I don't like to waste time and energy so I don't think including a bunch of isolations from the very beginning is a wise use of time or energy when you don't even know if you're getting any additional benefits. If a beginner is training 3-4x a week and focusing heavily on the basic compounds as they should, they likely already pushing their training time high enough and should be hitting every muscle group 2-3x a week. Of course, you may disagree with that training methodology too.

Believing that focusing on compounds is wise has nothing to do with "powerlifting mentality".

I very much agree with this. Im not against machines in general, or ISO movements. I just dont think its "optimal" for a begginer.

Also, if you want to get me on R/C too but don't want to stress with a new comment, it's 'you're'. 'Your an idiot' would imply that I have in my possession, something called 'an idiot'. My an idiot is confused.

I dont plan on keeping this arguement going past this thread. I didnt neg you because you negged me, it was the little comment you left that rustled my jimmies. Its over now.

Eng, here is an explanation of what I was referring to...

I dont pretend to know bodybuilding past basic principles, but I was under the asumption that isolation movements were not done until a basis of muscle mass was already built.

[DYTrainer]

Machines are not necessarily worthless. If a novice lifter has just completed bench press, incline, barbell rows, chin ups and wants to work their rear delts on the machine rather than using free weights, are they wrong? You need to take it easy with the absolutist attitude, and this is coming from someone who hardly works out.

Fix your typo there big guy

[sharpieblet]

oh, this thread again.

as i've posted in just about any other thread resembling this, any experienced bodybuilder (pro OR hobbyist) will eventually cycle through all or most stances/grips/angles/variations/machines/exercises to develop their long term goal physique. even if you're not using a specific variation NOW, you will likely do it in the future.

i use free weights for everything i can. i practically NEVER touch a smith machine. i use machines very seldomly for extensions after leg days or sometimes the crunch machine...in the future, this may all change.

edit: but i WILL say that i believe beginners should make the bread and butter based off compounds, and should still include some direct work (curls, lateral raises, calf raises, etc) to any OBVIOUS lagging parts after they've spent a couple months or so focusing on just the basics.

[ThickAsABrick]

I dont pretend to know bodybuilding past basic principles, but I was under the asumption that isolation movements were not done until a basis of muscle mass was already built.

If someone asks me my opinion on what exercises a size focused person should build a routine around, this is my response:

Squat
RDL
Bench
Row
OHP
Pull up
Shrugs
side raises
Curls
Dips/skulls/extension

Or some variation of those.

If someone wants to argue that you don't need ___ for a few months, whatever. I reco people do those from the start. The smaller stuff will not hinder recovery since it doesn't tax the CNS much, if at all, and you may as well begin getting acquainted with the movements you will be doing soon. As I've stated, isos can be massbuilders - they are not simply to shore up weak points. I believe in advising people to do the max amount to get the max results.

Ultimately these conversations are mostly just internet fodder. I think too much emphasis is placed on how people start out. What's far more important is sticking to it and continuing to progress. Being consistent. That's where most fail. After you've been lifting a long time, no one really gives a sh*t how long it took to gain x amount of muscle or lift x amount of weight. Unless you've got a tardtastic routine, you'll get there with time and effort.

[sharpieblet]

If someone asks me my opinion on what exercises a size focused person should build a routine around, this is my response:

Squat
RDL
Bench
Row
OHP
Pull up
Shrugs
side raises
Curls
Dips/skulls/extension

Or some variation of those.

If someone wants to argue that you don't need ___ for a few months, whatever. I reco people do those from the start. The smaller stuff will not hinder recovery since it doesn't tax the CNS much, if at all, and you may as well begin getting acquainted with the movements you will be doing soon. As I've stated, isos can be massbuilders - they are not simply to shore up weak points. I believe in advising people to do the max amount to get the max results.

Ultimately these conversations are mostly just internet fodder. I think too much emphasis is placed on how people start out. What's far more important is sticking to it and continuing to progress. Being consistent. That's where most fail. After you've been lifting a long time, no one really gives a sh*t how long it took to gain x amount of muscle or lift x amount of weight. Unless you've got a tardtastic routine, you'll get there with time and effort.

true. i believe most of us started with piss poor routines and frequency and exercise choice, but many of us (not myself yet) still ended up with awesome physiques and development...it's not like what isn't spot on from the get go can't get corrected later on. as long as the individual is smart enough to use resources at their disposal for research, they will learn how to fix their training at some point before they die. those who are too shy or full of themselves to seek out constructive criticism, will look the same or worse year after year, and that doesn't bother me.

[Engineer_Guy]

Eng, here is an explanation of what I was referring to:

Thanks, for the clarification. The 110 degree angle specifically was new info to me. I normally just considered 1+3. Anyways, I'm not denying the usefulness of isolations, but more or less the usefulness during a certain time period of an individual's training. And also I do think more of those are likely to be useful earlier than others (like bicep curls, which I think are useful straight from the beginning). Things like calves, traps, triceps, and lateral/rear delts are highly susceptible to genetics and some can go a long time before needing additional volume beyond what compounds provide.

I think we agree on 99% of this and we are just arguing a small detail that's really not even meaningful in the long run lol.
Also:

Probably because you've spent too much time in the WP.

lulz probably

[ThickAsABrick]

I think we agree on 99% of this and we are just arguing a small detail that's really not even meaningful in the long run lol.

No doubt. Gotta pass the time somehow

[j1akey]

I'd say it depends on just how new the person is in the first place but I will admit I wish I had access to and knowledge about free weights when I started. My "first" workout was 5 minutes on the elliptical machine and it almost killed me, some of us needed to work up to just walking down the ****ing road. Fortunately I've come a long way since then.

Machines gave me my newbie gains but that's it. After a couple months I stopped making progress which looking back isn't a big surprise given what I know now. For me, real progress took real weights which meant barbells. I haven't looked back since. These days you couldn't get me to touch a machine. I've since discovered Olympic Weightlifting which is doing even more for me.

[NZninja101]

You can't assume those groups will be lagging through compounds. A good beginner routine should cover just about everything through compounds. Once this is done for a while, it should be made clear what accessory work will be needed. Everyone has different genetics and body structures. And FWIW biceps are probably the toughest thing on that list to hit well through compounds, so if anything, curls are the only isolation I'd have a beginner even consider from the very start.

I just think that it seems redundant to wait until lagging muscles become obvious to include iso for them. Maybe bench press, incline and overhead are enough to develop someone's triceps but I don't think this is the case for the majority of people.


This is just my opinion and I can't *prove* it. All I can say is that I fell for the 'compounds only' trap, and also that since bigger guys and pro bbers always do some sort of curl and tri extension, as well as side raises/upright rows, some sort of rear delt exercise, and often shrugs, I'm not sure why these movement patterns would be required for *optimal* growth for a more advanced trainer but not a novice one.

Really? It's about par for the course, I'd say.

Fix your typo there big guy

In case anyone is wondering, DYTrainer is mad because he thinks perfect form is always better when this is not factually the case.


Also my lats look bigger than yours in your avi... glass houses...throwing stones...

[DYTrainer]

Also my lats look bigger than yours in your avi... glass houses...throwing stones...

Keep dreaming boy.



vs


Maybe if you actually spent time in the gym lifting correctly you would have some actual back muscles. Looking at your whole 1 picture ( surprised not to see more since you are so advanced and so smart..) I believe the following phrase fits you good:
"Abs on a skinny kid are like boobs on a fat chick; they just don't count."

[ThickAsABrick]

sweet, this thrad is now an e-posedown

[NZninja101]

Keep dreaming boy.
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2ymsh01.jpg[/IG]
[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/261m9tx.jpg[/IG]

vs
[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/m8pv1i.jpg[/IG]

Maybe if you actually spent time in the gym lifting correctly you would have some actual back muscles. Looking at your whole 1 picture ( surprised not to see more since you are so advanced and so smart..) I believe the following phrase fits you good:
"Abs on a skinny kid are like boobs on a fat chick; they just don't count."

Yep, lats still look bigger in my avi. Your old avi was a lot better. You probably just need to learn how to pose. Regardless I've been lifting for under 2 years, avi is a little over 2 months old, I had glandular fever so I had to stop lifting for a little while, and my diet was pretty bad in my first year. I also didn't bother with iso and now I really wish I had. And if I'm skinny then what are you?


but it's a moot point because Size =/= Knowledge. So if I say something I'm wrong, but if a big guy says the same thing he's right?


If you have anything else to say then take it to PM. We are ballzing up this thread.

[coolio5]

Both have their pros and cons. Machines are safer, but free weights work more muscles because you have to balance
and stabalize.

Hey guys just wanted to get everyone's opinion on how results from machines differ from results from using the same exercises using free weights.
I'm just starting out and have most of my routine based around machines.

Russ