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  1. #91
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    Thanks for documenting, this will be awesome to have a logged example.

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    I may be experimenting with a little bit of reverse dieting myself.
    Avg Weight/Avg Calories - since the new year began (weekly averages)
    179.23 2,636
    178.09 2,586
    176.97 2,739

    I had my self a huge carb day (600+) plus a couple beers (the alcohol always seems to cause a water drop) and dropped over 1lb from one day to the next. 176>175. then over the next two days settled in around 176.

    So I will either:
    -be more extreme with my carb ups than usual
    -add calories and see where I settle (or the highest amount I can still lose at
    -drink more beer

    or some combo.

  3. #93
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    Originally Posted by lee__d View Post
    I may be experimenting with a little bit of reverse dieting myself.
    Avg Weight/Avg Calories - since the new year began (weekly averages)
    179.23 2,636
    178.09 2,586
    176.97 2,739

    I had my self a huge carb day (600+) plus a couple beers (the alcohol always seems to cause a water drop) and dropped over 1lb from one day to the next. 176>175. then over the next two days settled in around 176.

    So I will either:
    -be more extreme with my carb ups than usual
    -add calories and see where I settle (or the highest amount I can still lose at
    -drink more beer

    or some combo.

    drink more beer sounds good to me!

    couple questions:

    you want me to log with new posts or just edit the original, since this is your thread?

    don't you agree I should be around 2700-2800 for my size and activity? 2350 is waaaaaay low....

    my other thought was at 2700 if no weight gain still, I may increase to 2800 for a week or two also, just to see how far I can push it. I lift hard, so not worried about going into a slight surplus anyway...thoughts on that?
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  4. #94
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) lee__d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    drink more beer sounds good to me!

    couple questions:

    you want me to log with new posts or just edit the original, since this is your thread?

    don't you agree I should be around 2700-2800 for my size and activity? 2350 is waaaaaay low....

    my other thought was at 2700 if no weight gain still, I may increase to 2800 for a week or two also, just to see how far I can push it. I lift hard, so not worried about going into a slight surplus anyway...thoughts on that?
    Up to you. you can only edit a post for a certain time period, so you'll have to make new posts eventually anyway.

    Based on your stats, I think it can be higher, yes. Perhaps in the low 3000s somewhere. Which is why I say:
    vvv

    I say push it as far as you can. Berto and Helms have said that most people would be surprised how high they can maintain when rehabbing a depressed metabolism. In the summer when I was more active, my maintenance was in the high 35-3700, and I weighed in the mid 180s.

    Especially if you don't mind putting the cut on hold for several weeks or a couple months. Get your maintenance up, and sit there for a few weeks. Then reintroduce a small deficit.

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    cool - my thoughts too though I didn't think that high - will take it a week at a time, as long as I am not gaining weight though, might as well push it a little further each week -would be thrilled if I got to 3000. honestly I may find that I feel so good and strong I may want to keep it there for a while lol. and if I end up trying to get really ripped, this will be the ONLY way to do it.
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  6. #96
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) lee__d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    cool - my thoughts too though I didn't think that high - will take it a week at a time, as long as I am not gaining weight though, might as well push it a little further each week -would be thrilled if I got to 3000. honestly I may find that I feel so good and strong I may want to keep it there for a while lol. and if I end up trying to get really ripped, this will be the ONLY way to do it.
    I know that feel, you might love being on higher calories.

    I personally do daily weigh ins and average them out. Mostly for data collection (I like to see what different amounts of macronutrients does to scale weight). It also eliminates the off chance of getting weighed on a day where you're retaining water (and thus masking a loss) skewing/hiding a loss.

  7. #97
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    Originally Posted by lee__d View Post
    I know that feel, you might love being on higher calories.

    I personally do daily weigh ins and average them out. Mostly for data collection (I like to see what different amounts of macronutrients does to scale weight). It also eliminates the off chance of getting weighed on a day where you're retaining water (and thus masking a loss) skewing/hiding a loss.
    yeah I weigh myself every morning also - I also like to watch how I react to beer drinking, carby meals, etc...for record keeping I average T, W, TH weights...just because occasionally weekends lead to pretty "carbed up" weights.
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    my one other consideration, about at 14% now, bulk up to 17% and around 200/205, then cut again. that would be 18-20 pounds at 50-60% being LBM.
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  9. #99
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) lee__d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    my one other consideration, about at 14% now, bulk up to 17% and around 200/205, then cut again. that would be 18-20 pounds at 50-60% being LBM.
    If you gain slowly enough, it may be slightly more lbm.

    I think one thing you need to do (in general it seems), is forget about these preconceived numbers you seem to have (like eating up to 2700 calories. Just eat up and wherever you land you land) and just let the process work. Just watch the mirror and scale to make sure you're not going to quickly, and see what happens.

  10. #100
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    Originally Posted by lee__d View Post
    If you gain slowly enough, it may be slightly more lbm.

    I think one thing you need to do (in general it seems), is forget about these preconceived numbers you seem to have (like eating up to 2700 calories. Just eat up and wherever you land you land) and just let the process work. Just watch the mirror and scale to make sure you're not going to quickly, and see what happens.
    probably right. I am an engineer and overanalytical by nature lol.
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  11. #101
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) lee__d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    probably right. I am an engineer and overanalytical by nature lol.
    lol, I hear you. I love numbers and stats myself. Hard to NOT adjust things constantly.

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    I can tell you after one week only of marginally more calories, I already feel better and more energetic and feel like working out every day and actually have to hold myself back from it. I definitely see the difference in NEAT because I am fidgety as a mug right now. I seriously feel like just going for a run after work.
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    End of Week 1

    Avg Calories: 2321

    Weight: 184.0

    Weight Change: 0

    Thoughts: Pleased there was no weight gain, on to next week which I am for 2,400+ average. This will be around 2,300 per day during the week with a big 3,000+ cal saturday.

    Hard to evaluate my lifting numbers this past week because I am still recovering from some hip trouble from a car accident that had me out for a few months. But the recovery is going well, started squatting at 135x5 about 4weeks ago (and felt like a spring chicken again) when I was cleared by the ortho and hit 225x8 Sunday. The timing of the increased calories is perfect for this linear gains period trying to recover old numbers before getting back on 5/3/1. I'd like to push the squats to a 315 (and beyond if I can) in this 4-6 week time period of increased calories.

    Overall I feel better mentally already and am ready to hit the gym every day (even days I am not supposed to go).

    I am fickin to eat a bigass steak for dinner tonight. wow this is nice!
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  14. #104
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    ok...hmmm.....down another pound this morning, first time I've hit 183. and that was before I.....emptied myself....for the morning.
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  15. #105
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    did this turn into your log?
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  16. #106
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    Originally Posted by cunfewzed View Post
    did this turn into your log?
    I asked Lee (since its his thread) and he said do it. I am gonna try to limit it to one weekly post going forward.
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    Originally Posted by cunfewzed View Post
    did this turn into your log?
    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    I asked Lee (since its his thread) and he said do it. I am gonna try to limit it to one weekly post going forward.
    I think it's a great idea for him to keep updating this thread. It's nice to have a real life example unfolding.

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    4 days after I finished my RFL diet cat 1 I got my RMR tested and it came out to be 12% below average at 1725. Now Im bulking and eating with a 15% surplus at a tdee of 2674, so for 3100 calories. Im wondering how long until my Metabolism kicks back up and i need to increase my calories to continue my weight gain, and what signs to look for as far as feeling (ie, hunger, sleeplessness, etc). Or will i just have to go by the scale, and adjust accordingly?

    Thanks

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    Originally Posted by kmankolb View Post
    4 days after I finished my RFL diet cat 1 I got my RMR tested and it came out to be 12% below average at 1725. Now Im bulking and eating with a 15% surplus at a tdee of 2674, so for 3100 calories. Im wondering how long until my Metabolism kicks back up and i need to increase my calories to continue my weight gain, and what signs to look for as far as feeling (ie, hunger, sleeplessness, etc). Or will i just have to go by the scale, and adjust accordingly?

    Thanks
    1. Did you get it tested before for a baseline? I'm guessing no, so while it may have slowed down, there's really no way to know how much away frmo average your rmr was to begin with.

    2.If you're metabolism is slowed, then your tdee might not be an accurate, so you're surplus may be bigger than you think.

    3. After an RFL type diet you should eat AT estimated maintenance for a few weeks, then introduce a surplus.

    4. How long did you RFL?

  20. #110
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    Talking

    hehehe wow this website is too helpful.

    Glad i found this :d

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    Raised my calories from about 1900 2 weeks ago to 2100 last week and went from 203 to 201 this morning going to bump
    Them up another 100-150 starting tomorrow

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    Originally Posted by Zipty636 View Post
    Raised my calories from about 1900 2 weeks ago to 2100 last week and went from 203 to 201 this morning going to bump
    Them up another 100-150 starting tomorrow
    that is sure to give you some inspiration

  23. #113
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    I asked Lee (since its his thread) and he said do it. I am gonna try to limit it to one weekly post going forward.
    I just made a thread asking if anyone has any experience reverse dieting and decided to check out this thread;s latest post and glad someone is doing a live log of their experience.

    I think its an amazing idea to let someone log their experience here.

    Also, my biggest concern is if I would be gaining any muscle on this reverse diet.

    Retoaded, could you possible give us updates to see if you are still gaining muscle?

    I was researching the reverse diet and they said the biggest time to gain muscle is the 4 weeks after a long cut.
    Visit these educational sites on nutritional and supplemental advice:
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  24. #114
    ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) lee__d's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lee__d View Post
    I may be experimenting with a little bit of reverse dieting myself.
    Avg Weight/Avg Calories - since the new year began (weekly averages)
    179.23 2,636
    178.09 2,586
    176.97 2,739

    I had my self a huge carb day (600+) plus a couple beers (the alcohol always seems to cause a water drop) and dropped over 1lb from one day to the next. 176>175. then over the next two days settled in around 176.

    So I will either:
    -be more extreme with my carb ups than usual
    -add calories and see where I settle (or the highest amount I can still lose at
    -drink more beer

    or some combo.
    176.80 2,867.50 - averages for this past week. Had two huge carb ups, so a negligible loss. Gunna go easy with the carb ups (one was unplanned).

    Originally Posted by PhiDelt234 View Post
    I just made a thread asking if anyone has any experience reverse dieting and decided to check out this thread;s latest post and glad someone is doing a live log of their experience.

    I think its an amazing idea to let someone log their experience here.

    Also, my biggest concern is if I would be gaining any muscle on this reverse diet.

    Retoaded, could you possible give us updates to see if you are still gaining muscle?

    I was researching the reverse diet and they said the biggest time to gain muscle is the 4 weeks after a long cut.
    Lyle speaks of a kind of overrun when transition from a cut to bulk, where the initial stages still cause some leaning out. Not sure if he mentioned a specific time, and it's likely very individual anyway.

  25. #115
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    End of Week 2

    Avg Calories: 2457

    Weight: 184

    Weight Change: 0


    Still no weight change, which is good. I feel good. Its tough for me to judge what the increased calories are doing for me in the weight training, because as stated before I am coming back from a car accident and hip injury and ramping back up anyway trying to recover back to old lifts before jumping back on 5/3/1, my program of choice...so since I am not operating around my old limits yet anyway, tough to see if I am making any more gains due to increased calories or not. I am at 235x5 on squats which is still below my pre-accident working weights by a bit, and this week hit a 205x15 (305ish) after my working set of 235x5 which did not feel tough. Almost puked, don't do high rep squats much lol. If I start pushing up towards 270x5 (or a single at 315ish) or so, then I'll be making new gains and can attribute it to the calories definitely. So we will see. Right now I feel like I have a lot of momentum though, and the calories certainly aren't HURTING the effort.

    I think there are some slight changes in the mirror to the better, specifically in some quad seperation and some vascularity in forearms...and my waist measurement has not really changed enough to know if its significant or just measuring error differences.

    As of now the plan is this week at 2500, next week 2600, following week 2700, and reevaluate from there. I am already starting to get the itch to cut calories back and drop weight again though, but I want at least 5 weeks of increased calories first, and these increased calories come at a convenient time while I am trying to recover old lifts. (still plenty of time for summer lol)

    What I have enjoyed most: I cut up 100cal blocks of sharp cheddar out of a big block and keep them in the fridge. I love at the end of the day being SHORT in calories (what a novel concept) and snacking on some sharp cheddar lol.
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  26. #116
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    Just popping in with 2 quick comments and a question, and also to auto-sub myself ():

    1. Thanks for this thread lee__d it's extremely informative.
    2. For people who are considering whether they have a slowed metabolism or not, I just want to re-emphasize a previously made point of making sure you wait the appropriate amount of time. I just had a -3 lb whoosh after stalling for 2 weeks
    3. Question: let's say you do think you have a slowed metabolism and are losing weight too slowly/not at all on something like 1700-1800 cals/day. Should you see the weight start to come off by reverse dieting, and then you can move back down? Or do you have to suffer for a long period of time at maintenance making no progress to fix it? Thanks in advance.

  27. #117
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    Originally Posted by Retoaded View Post
    End of Week 2

    Avg Calories: 2457

    Weight: 184

    Weight Change: 0


    Still no weight change, which is good. I feel good. Its tough for me to judge what the increased calories are doing for me in the weight training, because as stated before I am coming back from a car accident and hip injury and ramping back up anyway trying to recover back to old lifts before jumping back on 5/3/1, my program of choice...so since I am not operating around my old limits yet anyway, tough to see if I am making any more gains due to increased calories or not. I am at 235x5 on squats which is still below my pre-accident working weights by a bit, and this week hit a 205x15 (305ish) after my working set of 235x5 which did not feel tough. Almost puked, don't do high rep squats much lol. If I start pushing up towards 270x5 (or a single at 315ish) or so, then I'll be making new gains and can attribute it to the calories definitely. So we will see. Right now I feel like I have a lot of momentum though, and the calories certainly aren't HURTING the effort.

    I think there are some slight changes in the mirror to the better, specifically in some quad seperation and some vascularity in forearms...and my waist measurement has not really changed enough to know if its significant or just measuring error differences.

    As of now the plan is this week at 2500, next week 2600, following week 2700, and reevaluate from there. I am already starting to get the itch to cut calories back and drop weight again though, but I want at least 5 weeks of increased calories first, and these increased calories come at a convenient time while I am trying to recover old lifts. (still plenty of time for summer lol)

    What I have enjoyed most: I cut up 100cal blocks of sharp cheddar out of a big block and keep them in the fridge. I love at the end of the day being SHORT in calories (what a novel concept) and snacking on some sharp cheddar lol.
    Keep it going, bud.

    Originally Posted by saw7988 View Post
    Just popping in with 2 quick comments and a question, and also to auto-sub myself ():

    1. Thanks for this thread lee__d it's extremely informative.
    2. For people who are considering whether they have a slowed metabolism or not, I just want to re-emphasize a previously made point of making sure you wait the appropriate amount of time. I just had a -3 lb whoosh after stalling for 2 weeks
    3. Question: let's say you do think you have a slowed metabolism and are losing weight too slowly/not at all on something like 1700-1800 cals/day. Should you see the weight start to come off by reverse dieting, and then you can move back down? Or do you have to suffer for a long period of time at maintenance making no progress to fix it? Thanks in advance.
    No problem, bro

    Definitely

    It's really going to depend how long and extreme you've been dieting. Personally, I think the longer spent in maintenance the better. And the longer you're been hurting your metabolism, the longer you'll have take to fix it.

  28. #118
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    Thanks Lee D for posting those videos. They were very informative and I found them useful. I've been keeping a detailed food log in Excel and have it automatically calculate my macros. I instantly jumped into my cut (weighing 183lbs) going down to consuming around 2000 calories. I went down to 177 in little over 1 week but the weight loss stopped. I had a few weekends of drinking and my weight jumped back up to 180 and I again dropped it back down to 177lbs. I have been eating less than 2100 calories for a little over a month now. I don't think that I caused severe metabolic slowdown but I cannot get below 177 for some reason. I have been lifting weights 5-6 days a week for about 25 min then I follow up with 25 min bicycle and 25 min running. I keep my heart rate around 150 bpm during the cardio. I'm thinking that I should reverse diet back to 2900(roughly my TDEE) and maintain that for a while, then slowly bring down the calories to around 2400 to continue my cut. What do you think about that, think that is necessary? I'm really anxious to get on my bulk but really want to get bf% down first. I'm also thinking about throwing my cardio out since I read from leangains that if you're on a cut, you shouldn't do cardio or if you do, only very moderate. BTW, this is my first post and I joined this site after reading this thread. I'm excited to be apart of the bodybuilding community. Just trying to reduce body fat and make some muscle gains like everyone else!

  29. #119
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    Hey lee I damaged my metabolism and doing the reverse diet by slowly incorporating calories back in. Last week I gained a pound. Will I be making muscle gains since I'm gaining weight but I'm still bellow my calorie maintenance.
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  30. #120
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    Originally Posted by d3votion View Post
    Thanks Lee D for posting those videos. They were very informative and I found them useful. I've been keeping a detailed food log in Excel and have it automatically calculate my macros. I instantly jumped into my cut (weighing 183lbs) going down to consuming around 2000 calories. I went down to 177 in little over 1 week but the weight loss stopped. I had a few weekends of drinking and my weight jumped back up to 180 and I again dropped it back down to 177lbs. I have been eating less than 2100 calories for a little over a month now. I don't think that I caused severe metabolic slowdown but I cannot get below 177 for some reason. I have been lifting weights 5-6 days a week for about 25 min then I follow up with 25 min bicycle and 25 min running. I keep my heart rate around 150 bpm during the cardio. I'm thinking that I should reverse diet back to 2900(roughly my TDEE) and maintain that for a while, then slowly bring down the calories to around 2400 to continue my cut. What do you think about that, think that is necessary? I'm really anxious to get on my bulk but really want to get bf% down first. I'm also thinking about throwing my cardio out since I read from leangains that if you're on a cut, you shouldn't do cardio or if you do, only very moderate. BTW, this is my first post and I joined this site after reading this thread. I'm excited to be apart of the bodybuilding community. Just trying to reduce body fat and make some muscle gains like everyone else!

    You haven't been dieting for toooo long, so I would suggest incorporating weekly refeeds and dropping some cardio for now to see if that helps. Future not, start a cut with as many calories as possible.

    Originally Posted by PhiDelt234 View Post
    Hey lee I damaged my metabolism and doing the reverse diet by slowly incorporating calories back in. Last week I gained a pound. Will I be making muscle gains since I'm gaining weight but I'm still bellow my calorie maintenance.
    - make sure you're slowly increasing increasing cals

    - Maybe a few grams of muscle, likely negligible. I know we try to justify weight gain in this way, but keep in mind: number 1 reasno to reverse diet is getting your metabolism back where it should be, anything else (a little leaning out, tiny bit of muscle gain) is icing on the cake.

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