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  1. #31
    Registered User KenJenkinsII's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Regarding mutiple meals' impact on weight loss, it's about hunger management. As we learn more about ghrelin, leptin, neuropeptides, cortisol, norepinephrine, insulin, etc, the more we realize how varied individuals can be. IF is a calorie management tool, and or course, calories are the primary factor of weight loss / weight gain. That said, for the intermittent fasters, you're actually making the process of losing weight harder than it could be were you to take in the identical number of calories across a wider time span. Reason being, low insulin results in high ghrelin. High ghrelin results in low leptin (among many other variables).



    Another point, it's not just about these hormone levels, but also the numbers of receptors an individual has to respond to those hormones.

    Regarding meal composition, even identical macro value meals with different constituent parts metabolize quite differently (take coconut oil vs olive oil vs soybean oil).

    Furthermore, science also shows a direct correlation between sleep and energy metabolism. Less sleep, lower energy metabolism, and higher levels of hormones that make you keep / make adipose fat. Of course, other factors play a part, FFM (fat free mass), age, height, etc.

    I'm jumping all around here because the variables in energy metabolism jump around. There's so little we know or understand. That said, we all need to recognize that calories in vs out is relative. So before we collectively trash posters or assume they absolutely must be adding things up wrong, there needs to be a degree of latitude we impart to said posters. I realize we operate off of generalizations: most people calculate calories wrong, most people measure FFM wrong, calories are the single biggest determinant of weight loss, but please bear in mind, weight loss is NOT a one size fits all calculation.
    This is basically where I am at. I do believe that IF is beneficial in that up until my looking into to TDEE I had lost 10 lbs doing it and I was actually still making gains on almost every lift. I have more energy during the day, my mind is sharper, and I sleep better at night. I don't know if it actually makes you less sensitive to insulin or makes you produce more growth hormone but it is an easy way for me to eat so it works for me. I have always had the same macro goals no matter how many calories I ate but when I tried to eat the calories within the TDEE I first calculated I think it was simply too many calories to put me in a deficit. This has been an interesting thread to say the least because it shows we can all get to the same place via different routes.
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  2. #32
    Registered User oldsuperman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by sawoobley View Post
    I must be reading this post wrong because a lot of people are agreeing with it. Counting calories is an efficient way to lose weight. It is the only way to lose weight. People use various strategies to lose weight but in the end it comes down to putting yourself in a calorie deficit. Counting macros is essentially counting calories since each macro has an assigned caloric value. If you are lifting heavy and in a small to moderate caloric deficit you will burn primarily fat. Leaner people run into problems when their calorie deficit is to large for extended periods of time and they start to lose muscle. When and how you train will not matter significantly IMO if you are lifting heavy and hitting your major muscles when it comes to burning fat or muscle. Calories are all the same as long as minimum protein and fat macros are hit. Granted micronutrients are important for health but for weight loss it really isn't that complicated. Lift heavy and be in a moderate deficit and you will lose weight.
    No... ^^^^
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    Originally Posted by sawoobley View Post
    fasting will not put you in starvation mode. The number of meals you consume per say is not relevant to how fast or slow your metabolism is. It is one of the reasons why people can do so well on intermittent fasting type of feeding protocols. I suggest people read the sticky and related comment linked below. Unless a person is prepping for a contest I don't see any reason in giving when you eat too much thought or how many times per day. Going by personal preference, convenience and how you feel should suffice.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=123915821
    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post678321011
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  3. #33
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    No... ^^^^
    I do this for a living and am extremely successful at it.
    If someone is having difficulty losing weight, how can you seriously justify the statement that counting calories isn't of use?
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  4. #34
    ♚ Elected V.P. - R/P ♚ sawoobley's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Regarding mutiple meals' impact on weight loss, it's about hunger management. As we learn more about ghrelin, leptin, neuropeptides, cortisol, norepinephrine, insulin, etc, the more we realize how varied individuals can be. IF is a calorie management tool, and or course, calories are the primary factor of weight loss / weight gain. That said, for the intermittent fasters, you're actually making the process of losing weight harder than it could be were you to take in the identical number of calories across a wider time span. Reason being, low insulin results in high ghrelin. High ghrelin results in low leptin (among many other variables).

    Another point, it's not just about these hormone levels, but also the numbers of receptors an individual has to respond to those hormones.

    Regarding meal composition, even identical macro value meals with different constituent parts metabolize quite differently (take coconut oil vs olive oil vs soybean oil).

    Furthermore, science also shows a direct correlation between sleep and energy metabolism. Less sleep, lower energy metabolism, and higher levels of hormones that make you keep / make adipose fat. Of course, other factors play a part, FFM (fat free mass), age, height, etc.

    I'm jumping all around here because the variables in energy metabolism jump around. There's so little we know or understand. That said, we all need to recognize that calories in vs out is relative. So before we collectively trash posters or assume they absolutely must be adding things up wrong, there needs to be a degree of latitude we impart to said posters. I realize we operate off of generalizations: most people calculate calories wrong, most people measure FFM wrong, calories are the single biggest determinant of weight loss, but please bear in mind, weight loss is NOT a one size fits all calculation.
    Intermittent fasting works as well as any other feeding protocol. You can talk about hormones and their acute fluctuations but after a few weeks all of those changes become much less relevant. The body adapts and the same amount of weight loss is achieved with similar calorie deficits. Sometimes it takes a week or two to adjust because it usually involves eating a huge meal at the end of the day. Some people like it while other people do not. It's about personal preference and what makes your lifestyle better. I realize that some individuals respond better to certain diets than others but that does not justify anyone making general statements about what works or not. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...11.00873.x/pdf

    When a grown man who weighs 220 pounds says he is gaining weight when he is struggling to eat 2,000 calories then it is reasonable to assume that either he hasn't given himself enough time to adjust to his new eating protocol or he is not calculating calories correctly. Either that or we are looking at a medical condition such as hypothyroidism which I don't think is the case here.

    The reason why I'm so adamant about calories in versus calories out is I think it is crucial for people to understand this when it comes to weight loss. Otherwise people start thinking certain foods have certain weight loss properties, they try food separation techniques, or whatever and ignore the overwhelming reason why people lose weight. It is important however to realize that the energy equation (calories in versus calories out) is not a static equation. There are huge individual differences in NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis). Some people spontaneously move around and fidget more in response to over feeding. Over the course of a day this can add up to a lot more calories burned than if this activity did not take place.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post729779703
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...-equation.html

    I am somewhat aware of the relationship between sleep and obesity and muscle loss. However, this is a separate discussion.

    http://www.cepebr.org/upload/arquivo...Hypotheses.pdf
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea...17632.abstract
    http://www.gustrength.com/fatloss:ch...on-and-obesity
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  5. #35
    Riding 2 horses w/1 butt JRT6's Avatar
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    Check out Lyle McDonald's stuff as he deals with the myth of "starvation mode" and all the other anti-IF cliches. I found IF great for losing weight but now that I'm on maintance I like a regular diet better.
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  6. #36
    Registered User oldsuperman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    If someone is having difficulty losing weight, how can you seriously justify the statement that counting calories isn't of use?
    No bodybuilding coach counts calories for losing fat. Again reread my original post if you don't understand. Seems most everyone else does.
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  7. #37
    Pubmed Warrior acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    No bodybuilding coach counts calories for losing fat.
    You =/= all bodybuilding coaches. (I know several bodybuilding coaches that do).
    Again reread my original post if you don't understand. Seems most everyone else does.
    K

    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    Counting calories is the least efficient way to drop BF and keep and build muscle. Calories are nothing more than a measuring unit of energy burned. Where that energy is burned depends on so many factors. Are you burning fat cals or muscles? Are you burning stored food in you digestive system? Depending what you eat and when you eat, how and when you train. What kind of training you do. All this will determine if you are burning stored food, muscle or fat cals. All my clients whether actors, models, competitors or bbers are all put on a strict gram counting diet. How, when and what they train is also factored in. Again a calorie isn't all the same in where it comes from and how it is used.
    Counting "grams" is the same thing as counting calories. All you are discussing is macro management. Those that count calories are advised to do that as well.

    The mantra is.. Hit your macros within your caloric limits.
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  8. #38
    Registered User oldsuperman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    Hit your macros within your caloric limits.
    A calories is just a unit of measure. Nothing more. Yet a cal of sugar, fat, protein in various forum and taken during specific activities act and react totally differently. Counting grams works much better. Ever heard of Hany Rambod? Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Ron Coleman, Dennis Wolf, Chris Flippetlli, Bleu Taylor, Brandon Lyons, Sean Calder? These are all very successful coaches and IFBB pros who never use calories to train for gaining muscle of losing fat. I don't know who you know who counts calories for conditioning for bodybuilding, modeling and Ironman comps, yet that is what we do and our record speaks for it self.
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  9. #39
    Pubmed Warrior acrawlingchaos's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    A calories is just a unit of measure. Nothing more. Yet a cal of sugar, fat, protein in various forum and taken during specific activities act and react totally differently. Counting grams works much better. Ever heard of Hany Rambod? Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Ron Coleman, Dennis Wolf, Chris Flippetlli, Bleu Taylor, Brandon Lyons, Sean Calder? These are all very successful coaches and IFBB pros who never use calories to train for gaining muscle of losing fat. I don't know who you know who counts calories for conditioning for bodybuilding, modeling and Ironman comps, yet that is what we do and our record speaks for it self.
    I understand that protein isn't the same as fat, isn't the same as a carb. This is were macro management comes in and is tailored to the individual.

    Carb = 4 calories a gram.
    Protein = 4 calories a gram.
    Fat = 9 calories a gram.

    If you are counting grams, you are counting calories. You are doing the same thing we have been recommending ... tracking energy intake and macros.



    FYI. A gram is a unit of measure, nothing more. If you can determine that grams are relevant to diet, than by the same logic a calorie would be pretty relevant as well.
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  10. #40
    Registered User oldsuperman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    I understand that protein isn't the same as fat, isn't the same as a carb. This is were macro management comes in and is tailored to the individual.

    Carb = 4 calories a gram.
    Protein = 4 calories a gram.
    Fat = 9 calories a gram.

    If you are counting grams, you are counting calories. You are doing the same thing we have been recommending ... tracking energy intake and macros
    Let my say this one more time. To count 100 cals of protein or fat or carb in all their various types burn and act and react so completely different to different training activity. A calorie in isn't just a calorie out. That is why trainer and conditioning coaches care less about calorie when putting together a program. In all the over 10 years I've been training and the many years of training of my peers, none count cals. Why? Because it is the least effective way to lose fat and gain muscle. Your body is a complex machine and just like how a high performance machine acts differently to the fuels and additives in it to perform, so is your body. You can add a gal of gas to a machine, yet what is in that gal will make all the difference as to how it performs. A gal is a unit of measure just is a cal for the body. Yet depending of what that cal is and how you use it will depend on what the outcome is. Grams of protein isn't the same as a gram of sugar. It will not do the same thing to the body. And as I said there are so many different types of sugars and proteins it's important to know what they do to the body as well. So much and so very complicated. Certainly not one generic plan of counting calories will fit everyone. It is a science and an art to know it, understand it, and know how to use it. Again. This is what I have done very successfully over many years.

    Yet. With all that, good luck with your programs and ideas. There are many ways to skin a cat.
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  11. #41
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    Let my say this one more time. To count 100 cals of protein or fat or carb in all their various types burn and act and react so completely different to different training activity. A calorie in isn't just a calorie out. That is why trainer and conditioning coaches care less about calorie when putting together a program. In all the over 10 years I've been training and the many years of training of my peers, none count cals. Why? Because it is the least effective way to lose fat and gain muscle. Your body is a complex machine and just like how a high performance machine acts differently to the fuels and additives in it to perform, so is your body. You can add a gal of gas to a machine, yet what is in that gal will make all the difference as to how it performs. A gal is a unit of measure just is a cal for the body. Yet depending of what that cal is and how you use it will depend on what the outcome is. Grams of protein isn't the same as a gram of sugar. It will not do the same thing to the body. And as I said there are so many different types of sugars and proteins it's important to know what they do to the body as well. So much and so very complicated. Certainly not one generic plan of counting calories will fit everyone. It is a science and an art to know it, understand it, and know how to use it. Again. This is what I have done very successfully over many years.

    Yet. With all that, good luck with your programs and ideas. There are many ways to skin a cat.

    Good stuff sir. Ya know, I once heard a saying about listening to your elders??
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  12. #42
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    Originally Posted by sawoobley View Post
    Intermittent fasting works as well as any other feeding protocol. You can talk about hormones and their acute fluctuations but after a few weeks all of those changes become much less relevant. The body adapts and the same amount of weight loss is achieved with similar calorie deficits. Sometimes it takes a week or two to adjust because it usually involves eating a huge meal at the end of the day. Some people like it while other people do not. It's about personal preference and what makes your lifestyle better. I realize that some individuals respond better to certain diets than others but that does not justify anyone making general statements about what works or not. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...11.00873.x/pdf

    When a grown man who weighs 220 pounds says he is gaining weight when he is struggling to eat 2,000 calories then it is reasonable to assume that either he hasn't given himself enough time to adjust to his new eating protocol or he is not calculating calories correctly. Either that or we are looking at a medical condition such as hypothyroidism which I don't think is the case here.

    The reason why I'm so adamant about calories in versus calories out is I think it is crucial for people to understand this when it comes to weight loss. Otherwise people start thinking certain foods have certain weight loss properties, they try food separation techniques, or whatever and ignore the overwhelming reason why people lose weight. It is important however to realize that the energy equation (calories in versus calories out) is not a static equation. There are huge individual differences in NEAT (non-exercise activity thermogenesis). Some people spontaneously move around and fidget more in response to over feeding. Over the course of a day this can add up to a lot more calories burned than if this activity did not take place.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post729779703
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat...-equation.html

    I am somewhat aware of the relationship between sleep and obesity and muscle loss. However, this is a separate discussion.

    http://www.cepebr.org/upload/arquivo...Hypotheses.pdf
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/ea...17632.abstract
    http://www.gustrength.com/fatloss:ch...on-and-obesity
    I'm in agreement that total calories is the biggest determinant of in vs out. I guess the point of my rambling post is that diet isn't "click-i-tecture". The calculators out there for BMR, RMR, TDEE etc are guides, not the end all be all. There are far more variables involved in energy metabolism than those calculators can ever account for.

    I think for true success, you start with a guide, plan, evaluate, and adjust accordingly. Keep a journal, monitor it, adjust. Diet is every bit as variable as workout programs. I think most of us regulars are a bit quick to collectively tell a poster he/she's doing it wrong when there can be a sizable +/- margin of error with the calculators and that energy metabolism is a moving target that does change over time. Now, if a poster isn't weighing portions, counting condiments, essentially doing his or her due diligence, then sure, the honest answer is to advise him/her to get on the ball and take care of those items.
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    Let my say this one more time. To count 100 cals of protein or fat or carb in all their various types burn and act and react so completely different to different training activity. A calorie in isn't just a calorie out. That is why trainer and conditioning coaches care less about calorie when putting together a program. In all the over 10 years I've been training and the many years of training of my peers, none count cals. Why? Because it is the least effective way to lose fat and gain muscle. Your body is a complex machine and just like how a high performance machine acts differently to the fuels and additives in it to perform, so is your body. You can add a gal of gas to a machine, yet what is in that gal will make all the difference as to how it performs. A gal is a unit of measure just is a cal for the body. Yet depending of what that cal is and how you use it will depend on what the outcome is. Grams of protein isn't the same as a gram of sugar. It will not do the same thing to the body. And as I said there are so many different types of sugars and proteins it's important to know what they do to the body as well. So much and so very complicated. Certainly not one generic plan of counting calories will fit everyone. It is a science and an art to know it, understand it, and know how to use it. Again. This is what I have done very successfully over many years.

    Yet. With all that, good luck with your programs and ideas. There are many ways to skin a cat.
    It's really difficult to debate against vague metaphors and analogies.
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    A calories is just a unit of measure. Nothing more. Yet a cal of sugar, fat, protein in various forum and taken during specific activities act and react totally differently. Counting grams works much better. Ever heard of Hany Rambod? Jay Cutler, Phil Heath, Ron Coleman, Dennis Wolf, Chris Flippetlli, Bleu Taylor, Brandon Lyons, Sean Calder? These are all very successful coaches and IFBB pros who never use calories to train for gaining muscle of losing fat. I don't know who you know who counts calories for conditioning for bodybuilding, modeling and Ironman comps, yet that is what we do and our record speaks for it self.
    I don't think anyone would suggest not having macro targets in the composition of ones diet. I also am not sure that comparing pro BBders and the strategies they use to the average non enhanced guy or gal working out with the goal of losing body fat and increasing functional strength is particularly helpful.

    I can only assume there are certain macro nutrients you adjust based on several factors including workout load etc, where timing can be very beneficial in terms of performance, satiety etc. Such strict regimens are difficult for the average beginner who's goal is to reduce an already large body fat percentage. So you are correct, all of the strategies will work, but it certainly depends on the individual, their goals, their experience etc. For many a simple caloric target within the context of macro targets is a good first step to reducing an already very high body fat percentage. More nuanced approaches can certainly come later if they show the discipline to continue. IMO
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    Okay so I am probably going to regret this but I am more concerned about my macro intake than I am my overall caloric intake as I am not eating more than 2,400 calories a day right now. So if you were me...6'2" currently 222 lbs sedentary at work and lift intensely 4 days a week what would your guys caloric and macro goals be? Keep in mind my goal is to lose 1 lb of fat per week.
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    I'll Mod Til I'm Dead ironwill2008's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by KenJenkinsII View Post
    Okay so I am probably going to regret this but I am more concerned about my macro intake than I am my overall caloric intake as I am not eating more than 2,400 calories a day right now. So if you were me...6'2" currently 222 lbs sedentary at work and lift intensely 4 days a week what would your guys caloric and macro goals be? Keep in mind my goal is to lose 1 lb of fat per week.
    Simply use the information in this thread to figure yourself a baseline of protein, carbs, fat, and calories. It will give you a starting point from which to evaluate whether you're eating enough, too little, or too much:
    *Emma-Leigh's calorie/macro thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    It's really difficult to debate against vague metaphors and analogies.
    The problem is you want to debate. I'm having an information discussion based on years of successful results. You don't except it. I'm fine with that. Really. I am!
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Simply use the information in this thread to figure yourself a baseline of protein, carbs, fat, and calories. It will give you a starting point from which to evaluate whether you're eating enough, too little, or too much:
    *Emma-Leigh's calorie/macro thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=121703981
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    More great advice. Be a student of the obvious. You'll do just fine!
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  19. #49
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    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    Simply use the information in this thread to figure yourself a baseline of protein, carbs, fat, and calories. It will give you a starting point from which to evaluate whether you're eating enough, too little, or too much:
    *Emma-Leigh's calorie/macro thread:
    Thank you for the link, you guys have been extremely helpful
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  20. #50
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    Hope all that info helped you make sense of it all! LOL!!

    The takeaway:

    1. Everyone is different.
    2. Macro's are more important than cal counting.
    3. Eat clean.
    4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you.
    5. Continue to lift 4 times a week.
    6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight.
    7. Beware of paralysis by analysis.
    8. Use a mirror not a scale.
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  21. #51
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    Bullseye!

    Originally Posted by DesertDude11 View Post
    Hope all that info helped you make sense of it all! LOL!!

    The takeaway:

    1. Everyone is different.
    2. Macro's are more important than cal counting.
    3. Eat clean.
    4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you.
    5. Continue to lift 4 times a week.
    6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight.
    7. Beware of paralysis by analysis.
    8. Use a mirror not a scale.
    ^^^
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  22. #52
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    Originally Posted by DesertDude11 View Post
    Hope all that info helped you make sense of it all! LOL!!

    The takeaway:

    1. Everyone is different. Our similarities far outweigh our differences.

    2. Macro's are more important than cal counting. If you are counting macros, you are tracking calories.

    3. Eat clean. WTF is this?

    4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you. And maybe it is. IF seems to improve bio markers, not the other way around.

    5. Continue to lift 4 times a week. or 3, or 5.

    6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight. Or you can just dial in your intake, i.e. reduce caloric intake.

    7. Beware of paralysis by analysis. Ditto

    8. Use a mirror not a scale. The scale is an important tool when losing weight. If you are in a deficit, the scale should be moving down.
    I disagree, see bolded.
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    1. Everyone is different. Our similarities far outweigh our differences. There are 3 different body types, each requires a different type of training and therefore weight loss regime. www (dot) bodybuilding (dot) com/fun/becker3.htm

    2. Macro's are more important than cal counting. If you are counting macros, you are tracking calories. False, one XL egg has 80 Cals 5g fat and 7g Protien while the same egg white has 35 cals, 0g fat and 7g protien. Very different.

    3. Eat clean. WTF is this? Seriously? Ok, eating clean means not eating any processed ANYTHING. Nothing with a bar code, no white ANYTHING; bread, sugar, flour... the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that you can get 140 cal and 39g carbs from a 12 oz can of coke ='s empty calories.

    4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you. And maybe it is. IF seems to improve bio markers, not the other way around. Try telling that to a diabetic or someone that is sensitive to insulin fluctuation.

    5. Continue to lift 4 times a week. or 3, or 5. Sure, whatever your schedule is... just keep it up.

    6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight. Or you can just dial in your intake, i.e. reduce caloric intake. Cardio never hurt anyone. Even if you are concerned about burning muscle, there are ways to avoid that.

    7. Beware of paralysis by analysis. Ditto Ditto? Are you sure???

    8. Use a mirror not a scale. The scale is an important tool when losing weight. If you are in a deficit, the scale should be moving down. It can also be the source for stress, confusion and de-motivation. A lot of people tend to look at it too frequently. Like every day... if you must, then check once a week in the morning before breakfast at a max.
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    More great advice. Be a student of the obvious. You'll do just fine!
    I'm sorry, what? I thought you said a minute ago that calorie counting was useless. Emma Leigh's entire thread is about effective calorie counting. Colour me confused.

    For what it is worth since counting my intake I've found it extraordinarily easy to manipulate my bodyweight. Before doing so I tended to undereat for days then "binge" in an ever repeating cycle which killed any training results.
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    Originally Posted by DesertDude11 View Post
    There are 3 different body types, each requires a different type of training and therefore weight loss regime. www (dot) bodybuilding (dot) com/fun/becker3.htm
    The 3 "basic" Somatotypes have been debunked, and was an archaic way of relating personality traits with body type. While there are variations in metabolism, bone structure, etc, it doesn't effect the way you train or eat. The basics are the SAME for everyone.



    2. Macro's are more important than cal counting. If you are counting macros, you are tracking calories. False, one XL egg has 80 Cals 5g fat and 7g Protien while the same egg white has 35 cals, 0g fat and 7g protien. Very different.
    I get that macros are more than counting calories, and I have already said that composition of the diet matters. In the same instance, a caloric number gives a very direct and easy way of measuring any energy intake. It makes no sense to go through the work of tracking macros, and then not go the extra step and track caloric intake.



    3. Eat clean. WTF is this? Seriously? Ok, eating clean means not eating any processed ANYTHING. Nothing with a bar code, no white ANYTHING; bread, sugar, flour... the list goes on and on. The bottom line is that you can get 140 cal and 39g carbs from a 12 oz can of coke ='s empty calories.
    Completely cereal. While I can certainly agree that the majority of your food should be "nutrient dense", food avoidance is completely unnecessary. White rice isn't "dirty", potatoes are not "dirty". This is the kind of attitude that actually contributes to poor food relations.



    4. If you have ANY insulin issues at all, maybe IF is not for you. And maybe it is. IF seems to improve bio markers, not the other way around. Try telling that to a diabetic or someone that is sensitive to insulin fluctuation.
    I would advise a diabetic to do his own research into the matter and speak to his Doctor on the matter. There is a growing body of evidence that various low energy diets can be of use.



    5. Continue to lift 4 times a week. or 3, or 5. Sure, whatever your schedule is... just keep it up.

    6. Up your cardio when you want to lose weight. Or you can just dial in your intake, i.e. reduce caloric intake. Cardio never hurt anyone. Even if you are concerned about burning muscle, there are ways to avoid that.
    My point was that cardio isn't necessary and IMO should be done for cardiac conditioning only. If you try to "out-cardio" your diet, you stand a good chance of spinning your wheels.



    8. Use a mirror not a scale. The scale is an important tool when losing weight. If you are in a deficit, the scale should be moving down. It can also be the source for stress, confusion and de-motivation. A lot of people tend to look at it too frequently. Like every day... if you must, then check once a week in the morning before breakfast at a max.
    If it is a source of de-motivation and confusion, then one needs to understand what the scale is doing and not "get angry" with it. It doesn't matter how often you stand on it, as long as it is "regular". To simply avoid the scale (like you suggest) because the number hurts your feeling isn't going to help.






    7. Beware of paralysis by analysis. Ditto Ditto? Are you sure???
    Get diet in check
    A. Start counting calories IMMEDIATELY, purchase a scale and weigh all portions. "Myfitnesspal" is a one of the easiest online programs for counting, and is free here. --------> http://www.myfitnesspal.com/

    B. Determine starting calories here ------------> http://www.iifym.com/tdee-calculator

    C. Consume appropriate macros. 1 gram of protein and 1/2 gram of fat per pound of goal weight.The remainder of you calories can be any macro of your choosing, but stay within your caloric limit.

    D. Once you start counting, monitor for 2 weeks. If you do not lose weight, reduce intake by 100 calories a day and monitor for a week. Continue to do so until you are losing weight at the rate of 1 pound per week.

    E.Choose an eating pattern that best fits into your lifestyle. If you don't like multiple small meals, stop jamming a round peg into a square hole.
    If you wan't to spend your time worrying about things that make little difference, while completely missing the above basics, that's on you.
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  26. #56
    Registered User Jtbny's Avatar
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    I have to disagree with you Jeff. Potatoes are dirty, well they start out dirty and remain so unless they are cleaned.

    That is all
    Last edited by Jtbny; 12-12-2012 at 11:23 AM. Reason: The scale hurts my feelings :(
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  27. #57
    Registered User RobertD2's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by acrawlingchaos View Post
    The 3 "basic" Somatotypes have been debunked, and was an archaic way of relating personality traits with body type. While there are variations in metabolism, bone structure, etc, it doesn't effect the way you train or eat. The basics are the SAME for everyone.

    .
    While I agree with more less everything you wrote .

    You want to think about things like Leptin. IIRC there was a study done in either 2009 or 2010. It showed the level various test subjects reacted to low leptin varied wildly. Some people started to slow down and save bf at fairly high levels. Others didn't react even if fairly lean levels. These were all "normal" subjects. Not people with leptin issues.

    I don't think humans are yet coming off some mass assembly line built to some blue print.

    BTW plug pubmed somatotypes into google. Might change your mind on how archaic they are.
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  28. #58
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    Counting calories is the least efficient way to drop BF and keep and build muscle. Calories are nothing more than a measuring unit of energy burned. Where that energy is burned depends on so many factors. Are you burning fat cals or muscles? Are you burning stored food in you digestive system? Depending what you eat and when you eat, how and when you train. What kind of training you do. All this will determine if you are burning stored food, muscle or fat cals. All my clients whether actors, models, competitors or bbers are all put on a strict gram counting diet. How, when and what they train is also factored in. Again a calorie isn't all the same in where it comes from and how it is used.
    Originally Posted by ironwill2008 View Post
    If you've gained weight, you aren't actually in a calorie deficit.
    Originally Posted by drudixon View Post
    Your metabolism established a set point at the lower calorie level.
    All of this ^^^^^

    From my perspective, your 20 hours of fasting has stalled your metabolisim. Now that you are replenishing your system your body is going to store this cause it doesn't know when it will be fed next. Based on that, you are still not in a deficit.

    I am like Old Sup. I do not count calories. I count macros and split that into my meals for the day (6).

    Once your body knows it will be getting the right food regularly you can fine tune your macros and weight will start to drop without sacrificing muscle mass.
    We all have our good days and our bad ones. What separates us is those who can turn a bad day into a good one...

    When your not training or running just know no matter what some place someone is doing one more set or one more mile. Stay motivated!!!


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  29. #59
    Registered User oldsuperman's Avatar
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    The scales only tell you how much you weigh. It does't tell you your BMI or how you look and feel. As I said before, none of my clients are to ever step on the scales unless it's almost show time in a bbing contest. I can tell in an instant how fat you are and if your diet and exercise program is working by your progress pics. If the symmetry and leanness is there, then you are heading in the right direction. When a client of mine is getting ready for a shoot or film, who cares what he or she weighs? All the photographer cares about is does he look lean and have abs? I weigh about every 6 mths personally if at all. I can tell by a quick look in the mirror if I like what I see. If you want to weigh yourself because it makes you feel better. Then I guess you can. Yet not in my stable.
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  30. #60
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    Originally Posted by oldsuperman View Post
    The scales only tell you how much you weigh. It does't tell you your BMI or how you look and feel. As I said before, none of my clients are to ever step on the scales unless it's almost show time in a bbing contest. I can tell in an instant how fat you are and if your diet and exercise program is working by your progress pics. If the symmetry and leanness is there, then you are heading in the right direction. When a client of mine is getting ready for a shoot or film, who cares what he or she weighs? All the photographer cares about is does he look lean and have abs? I weigh about every 6 mths personally if at all. I can tell by a quick look in the mirror if I like what I see. If you want to weigh yourself because it makes you feel better. Then I guess you can. Yet not in my stable.
    Er, no way to find your BMI without knowing your weight since the two figures you factor into it are your weight and height Linky. Of course BMI is about as useful as a chocolate fireguard. I'm overweight on the BMI scale. LOL!

    I like knowing my weight. It's just another tool to use, not the only one. It helps me understand if I've got the surplus or deficit I want, it enables me to compare leanness against weight to get an understanding of what LBM gains I'm making. The mirror is just as important. It's the trends I look for, not the individual data points from either the scale or my reflection.
    Last edited by lunchbreak; 12-12-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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