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  1. #1
    Registered User eastcoastATL's Avatar
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    Speed and explosive training

    I'm going to start the vertical jump bible program.
    I have lifted, 5 times a week for 30-40minutes. But I have pathetically low lifts,vertical, and 40yd. I have done some plyometrics about 5 times. Is this the same as never doing plyo before?

    Here's my pathetic stats:
    Bench 135
    Squat 165
    Power clean 100
    Leg press 400
    40yd 5.6
    Vertical- 17

    If I do wieghts and get my squats up to around 200, leg press to 500 and do the program(vertical jump bible)
    Could I realistically expect these stats in let's say 3months? 12(give or take a few days)weeks?
    Vertical- 25?
    40yd- 5?
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  2. #2
    Running for my life. The Running Man's Avatar
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    There's almost no correlation between maximum lifts and jumping ability. In fact, you're liable to lose elasticity if you just focus on doing a lot of eccentric compound lifts.

    If you want better jumping and speed, you need to train specifically for these goals. You wouldn't do sprints to increase your squat max.
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  3. #3
    Registered User SeanP35's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by The Running Man View Post
    There's almost no correlation between maximum lifts and jumping ability. In fact, you're liable to lose elasticity if you just focus on doing a lot of eccentric compound lifts.

    If you want better jumping and speed, you need to train specifically for these goals. You wouldn't do sprints to increase your squat max.
    Notsheriffsrs.

    No, you wouldn't do sprints to increase your squat max. You would squat to reduce your sprint times, though.
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    Registered User eastcoastATL's Avatar
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    Yea... I totaly worded that wrong. I was wondering if increasing my vertical+wieghts will reduce my 40yd time...
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    Originally Posted by eastcoastATL View Post
    I'm going to start the vertical jump bible program.
    I have lifted, 5 times a week for 30-40minutes. But I have pathetically low lifts,vertical, and 40yd. I have done some plyometrics about 5 times. Is this the same as never doing plyo before?

    Here's my pathetic stats:
    Bench 135
    Squat 165
    Power clean 100
    Leg press 400
    40yd 5.6
    Vertical- 17

    If I do wieghts and get my squats up to around 200, leg press to 500 and do the program(vertical jump bible)
    Could I realistically expect these stats in let's say 3months? 12(give or take a few days)weeks?
    Vertical- 25?
    40yd- 5?
    your stats are not pathetic, BELIEVE IN YOURSELF, if you do that workout, [if you believe you will get results] YOU WILL GET AMAZING RESULT, trust me, that is A PERFECT WORKOUT,
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  6. #6
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    Originally Posted by eastcoastATL View Post
    Yea... I totaly worded that wrong. I was wondering if increasing my vertical+wieghts will reduce my 40yd time...
    Correct lift heavy (squats, deadlifts, lunges, etc...) and doing plymoetrics will help a lot in increasing your 40 time...
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  7. #7
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    Originally Posted by The Running Man View Post
    There's almost no correlation between maximum lifts and jumping ability. In fact, you're liable to lose elasticity if you just focus on doing a lot of eccentric compound lifts.

    If you want better jumping and speed, you need to train specifically for these goals. You wouldn't do sprints to increase your squat max.
    Lot's of science in this post good work.


    Speed, power, and strength development are all factors neuromuscular efficiency/ inter/intra-muscular coordination. There are only 2 ways to develop these qualities:

    -Lifting at max/near max to elicit the inter/intramuscular coordination required to move max weights
    -Lifting/running/jumping at maximal rate of force production. This can't happen with max weights. It also can't happen with lighter weights. A pitcher may be able to throw a baseball 100mph but a wiffle ball won't go that fast and neither will a 16lb bowling ball.

    Not only is lifting heavy while training speed good for you, it is essential when trying to maximize rate of force production development for jumping.

    All of this internet bull$hit that gets thrown around is amazing to me. My fastest 40 time while playing football in college was at my heaviest bodyweight. Just because I was stronger. Over the course of a few years, I went from 4.9 at 255-260 to 4.75 at 275. The only difference was my training in the weight room got smarter.


    Check out explosive plyometrics by Dr. Yessis. Tons of good stuff in there.
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  8. #8
    Registered User JohnMariettePT's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    Lot's of science in this post good work.


    Speed, power, and strength development are all factors neuromuscular efficiency/ inter/intra-muscular coordination. There are only 2 ways to develop these qualities:

    -Lifting at max/near max to elicit the inter/intramuscular coordination required to move max weights
    -Lifting/running/jumping at maximal rate of force production. This can't happen with max weights. It also can't happen with lighter weights. A pitcher may be able to throw a baseball 100mph but a wiffle ball won't go that fast and neither will a 16lb bowling ball.

    Not only is lifting heavy while training speed good for you, it is essential when trying to maximize rate of force production development for jumping.

    All of this internet bull$hit that gets thrown around is amazing to me. My fastest 40 time while playing football in college was at my heaviest bodyweight. Just because I was stronger. Over the course of a few years, I went from 4.9 at 255-260 to 4.75 at 275. The only difference was my training in the weight room got smarter.


    Check out explosive plyometrics by Dr. Yessis. Tons of good stuff in there.
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  9. #9
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    Lot's of science in this post good work.


    Speed, power, and strength development are all factors neuromuscular efficiency/ inter/intra-muscular coordination. There are only 2 ways to develop these qualities:

    -Lifting at max/near max to elicit the inter/intramuscular coordination required to move max weights
    -Lifting/running/jumping at maximal rate of force production. This can't happen with max weights. It also can't happen with lighter weights. A pitcher may be able to throw a baseball 100mph but a wiffle ball won't go that fast and neither will a 16lb bowling ball.

    Not only is lifting heavy while training speed good for you, it is essential when trying to maximize rate of force production development for jumping.

    All of this internet bull$hit that gets thrown around is amazing to me. My fastest 40 time while playing football in college was at my heaviest bodyweight. Just because I was stronger. Over the course of a few years, I went from 4.9 at 255-260 to 4.75 at 275. The only difference was my training in the weight room got smarter.


    Check out explosive plyometrics by Dr. Yessis. Tons of good stuff in there.
    You're both right/wrong.

    Telling a kid to do multiply sets of squat at 85%+ of their 1RM, 9 out of 10 times you're going to get some sort of half ass quarter squat. They are going to get tight and probably hurt themselves. Heavy squats do increase your force production but what good does that do for you when it take almost a second to reach maximal force when it only takes 0.1-0.2 seconds to push off during a sprint? Usain Bolt does almost no strength training and I think he's doing alright in the RFD department.

    On the other hand to say that there is no correlation between 1RM and jumping ability is wrong. They are definitely not linearly correlated but they are connected. The ground reaction force during a sprint can be around 4 times the athlete's body. The better the athlete can absorb that energy, the better/quicker they can use that energy, with the help of the SSC. This is also true in the counter movement of a vertical leap.

    I would recommend you start a flexibility program and work your core. Sit-ups won't help you. You need to focus on exercises that make you stabilize your torso. Plyometrics and sprinting can be great for this. I would then add in RDL, squats, and olympic lifts if you have experience with them. Form and tempo is far more important than the weight you use on these exercises. I would work in that 75-85% range and do the exercises explosively.

    It's possible. Cleaning up your form will help a lot.
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  10. #10
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    Originally Posted by SeanP35 View Post
    You would squat to reduce your sprint times, though.
    Wait what?!
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  11. #11
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    Originally Posted by jonmd123 View Post
    You're both right/wrong.
    Heavy squats do increase your force production but what good does that do for you when it take almost a second to reach maximal force when it only takes 0.1-0.2 seconds to push off during a sprint?
    It was my understanding that your maximum force production was sort of a pool for which to draw force from your quicker activities from. So the athlete who can recruit 50% of his maximum force of 400 pounds (in .1-.2 seconds required for a sprint/jump) is obviously going faster/jumping higher than the athlete who can recruit 50% of only 200 pounds, all other factors being equal. Or is that not right?
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  12. #12
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    Originally Posted by NewbieX2 View Post
    It was my understanding that your maximum force production was sort of a pool for which to draw force from your quicker activities from. So the athlete who can recruit 50% of his maximum force of 400 pounds (in .1-.2 seconds required for a sprint/jump) is obviously going faster/jumping higher than the athlete who can recruit 50% of only 200 pounds, all other factors being equal. Or is that not right?
    Not following you exactly.

    Basically my point was that someone that focuses on strength training will have a higher maximal force production than some that trains explosively. However, the amount of force that can be produced in a short amount of time will be higher in the explosively trained athlete. Rarely do athlete reach there max in force, they are always making quick cuts and change in direction.

    Force comes from the number of muscle fibers recruited and the type, and the speed which they fire. Strength training will recruit slow twitch fibers first and the speed which they summate will be slower. So high force, but it takes a long time to get there. On the other hand training explosively will recruit the fast twitch fibers first, which fire quicker. So high force to start, but it tappers off as time increases.

    This is why both types of training are important, but once the athlete has adequate strength and flexibility, they should focus on lifting weight explosively.
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    MS,CSCS,CF-L1,USAW,WBB HamburgerTrain's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jonmd123 View Post
    Not following you exactly.

    Basically my point was that someone that focuses on strength training will have a higher maximal force production than some that trains explosively. However, the amount of force that can be produced in a short amount of time will be higher in the explosively trained athlete. Rarely do athlete reach there max in force, they are always making quick cuts and change in direction.

    Force comes from the number of muscle fibers recruited and the type, and the speed which they fire. Strength training will recruit slow twitch fibers first and the speed which they summate will be slower. So high force, but it takes a long time to get there. On the other hand training explosively will recruit the fast twitch fibers first, which fire quicker. So high force to start, but it tappers off as time increases.

    This is why both types of training are important, but once the athlete has adequate strength and flexibility, they should focus on lifting weight explosively.
    As far as fibre typing, it depends on the type of training. You say all weight training is a slow twitch activity? Sprinting with too short a rest can also be a slow twitch activity. Training stimulus can cause fibre types to take on characteristics of their opposites. There is whole lot more too it than simply: Strength training will recruit slow twich fibres. There are a million other varibales that come into play like volume, training density, bar speed, etc.
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    Originally Posted by KidAlchemy View Post
    Wait what?!
    What about it?
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    Originally Posted by HamburgerTrain View Post
    As far as fibre typing, it depends on the type of training. You say all weight training is a slow twitch activity? Sprinting with too short a rest can also be a slow twitch activity. Training stimulus can cause fibre types to take on characteristics of their opposites. There is whole lot more too it than simply: Strength training will recruit slow twich fibres. There are a million other varibales that come into play like volume, training density, bar speed, etc.
    No, I said when you strength train your body will recruit slow twitch fibers FIRST. Slow twitch fibers are much more efficient, therefore your body will natural choice these fibers before the fast twitch fibers. When the load is heavy enough it will then begin recruiting fast twitch fiber to help move the weight. Training explosively forces your body to selectively recruit fast twitch before slow twitch because they react faster. As far as those other variables they really don't come into play. While there is some great area between the two, generally, training for strength and training explosively are gonna have totally different sets, bar speed, volume, ect, ect.

    So if you're "strength training" with 75-85% of your 1RM for 3-5 reps while moving the bar explosively, you're no longer strength training and you're training for power.
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    Originally Posted by SeanP35 View Post
    What about it?
    No I just thought you said that ones squatting would reduce once sprint time.
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    Originally Posted by KidAlchemy View Post
    No I just thought you said that ones squatting would reduce once sprint time.

    It will...it's common sense.

    Stronger legs will let you generate more force to the ground, thus going faster. All the guys above have already explained this multiple times. There isn't an elite sprinter out there that doesn't squat. And all of the D1 programs have their guys on squats and plyometrics.
    People say all of this crap about genetics this, genetics that. I will never let genetics tell me what I can and cannot do..
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    The MISC Ginger Niko49ers's Avatar
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    Plyos, Oly lifts, Squats/Deads

    Repeat.

    Squats/Deads: Lower body/posterior chain STRENGTH (how much force you can produce)
    Plyos/Oly Lifts: Lower body QUICKNESS (how fast you produce said force)

    Strength + Quickness = EXPLOSION
    Last edited by Niko49ers; 12-03-2012 at 11:40 PM.
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  19. #19
    Registered User lubrizzle's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by eastcoastATL View Post
    Could I realistically expect these stats in let's say 3months? 12(give or take a few days)weeks?
    Vertical- 25?
    40yd- 5?
    3 months? That would be a reach. 1 year? With very dedicated training, I can see that, though progress would slow drastically as you approach it. You never mentioned your height, weight, age, etc.

    Do the novice/beginner VJB program focused on getting your squat up. Increase your squat to bodyweight ratio and your standing vert will go up. IMO, your maximum lifts, if done in an explosive manner (ie. athletic stance squat with high bar speed vs super wide powerlifting stance with low bar speed) have very high correlation with jumping ability. It did for me - ~285 lb full squat at 175 body weight. 27-28" standing vert, ~31 with approach - far from elite, but I'm working on it and making noticeable progress.

    Also, lots of elite level sprinters, decathalon athletes lift weights nowadays.
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    What exactly is a "explosive squat"? Is there a difference besides the wieght?
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    Registered User KidAlchemy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by OneLastChance View Post
    It will...it's common sense.

    Stronger legs will let you generate more force to the ground, thus going faster. All the guys above have already explained this multiple times. There isn't an elite sprinter out there that doesn't squat. And all of the D1 programs have their guys on squats and plyometrics.
    Wait what?!

    I said that what I understood from him us that if one squats he sprints slower. And then you say that it does but then say completely different stuff. Though in the end I agree with you but did I misunderstood him?
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    Registered User KidAlchemy's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by eastcoastATL View Post
    What exactly is a "explosive squat"? Is there a difference besides the wieght?
    Come up faster.
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    Lots of constructive criticism in here. I'm going to trust the Canadian national sprinter with a 10.17 PR and a 900lb dead lifter when it comes to advice.
    "The process is the goal"

    Current PR's
    Bench: 240
    Squat: 385
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    Originally Posted by KidAlchemy View Post
    Wait what?!

    I said that what I understood from him us that if one squats he sprints slower. And then you say that it does but then say completely different stuff. Though in the end I agree with you but did I misunderstood him?
    Originally Posted by OneLastChance View Post
    It will...it's common sense.

    Stronger legs will let you generate more force to the ground, thus going faster. All the guys above have already explained this multiple times. There isn't an elite sprinter out there that doesn't squat. And all of the D1 programs have their guys on squats and plyometrics.
    Originally Posted by KidAlchemy View Post
    No I just thought you said that ones squatting would reduce once sprint time.
    Originally Posted by KidAlchemy View Post
    Wait what?!
    Originally Posted by SeanP35 View Post
    Notsheriffsrs.

    No, you wouldn't do sprints to increase your squat max. You would squat to reduce your sprint times, though.
    You guys are just getting confused by how the word "reduce" is being used.

    When it comes to sports times, like the 40, you use the word "Increase" rather than reduce. Yes, when improving your 40, you are in fact reducing your time. But that is not how the word is used. Improving=Increasing...Worsening=Reducing.

    So if someone was to increase their 40 time. They are in fact improving their time. Reducing isn't a word that is used in this, and actually gets confused as a negative term. Increasing and/or improving are the correct terms.
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