RANT: i am obese and on a phone

[Farley1324]

Over 132,000 K-12 schools in the United States of America.

Please see this table of data:

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeind...table_06_1.asp


I think it's retarded for teachers (not security guards, not police officers) to have weapons on them simply because statistically speaking it's pointless. The averages of weapon crimes in schools is nearly 0 percent. The introduction of weapons into the school will only increase the number. Because access is the only way anyone can complete a gun crime, if you don't have a weapon you can't use it.

I don't see why the number of them is relevant. Can you clarify?

Arguing that, statistically, "weapon crimes in schools is nearly 0 percent" doesn't do much good when 20 elementary school kids were just murdered. Unless your position is that it isn't a problem we need to be concerned with, and we don't need to do anything differently to try to keep this from happening again.

When a shooter gets access to a firearm and goes to the school with it, is it better to have a licensed carrier there who can shoot back, or not? I say it is. Do you agree?

Individuals who are able to legally carry a gun don't undergo some kind of transformation because they are on school property vs being somewhere else. So let's reason this backwards. Do you think allowing licensed carriers to have a gun in public (not at there residence or business, let's say) in general is retarded?

[ossizen]

That table does not say which schools have the highest or lowest rates. These are just averages.

It would make more sense to break them down into areas of the country. One policy (such as arming teachers) in one district may not be applicable in another part.

[Farley1324]

That table does not say which schools have the highest or lowest rates. These are just averages.

It would make more sense to break them down into areas of the country. One policy (such as arming teachers) in one district may not be applicable in another part.

I mentioned this before, but I don't think the term "arming teachers" accurately represents what most people (who are for more guns/allowing guns) are saying.

What I and many others support is the removal of restrictions that prohibit those who can legally carry from doing so on school property. "Arming teachers" makes it sound like going out and providing guns to those who do not already have them (or get them on their own of their own choosing)

[mjw8204]

You're

What?

right....

Huh?

answers

Really?

below

Show me where I said that.

[ossizen]

I mentioned this before, but I don't think the term "arming teachers" accurately represents what most people (who are for more guns/allowing guns) are saying.

What I and many others support is the removal of restrictions that prohibit those who can legally carry from doing so on school property. "Arming teachers" makes it sound like going out and providing guns to those who do not already have them (or get them on their own of their own choosing)

I apologize if I fell into that trap.

The 9th and 10th Amendments definitely apply to allowing the districts to decide this. The "one-size fits all" fallacy of many state and federal laws (including firearm-related) are their own downfall.

[Hishiad]

I don't see why the number of them is relevant. Can you clarify?

Arguing that, statistically, "weapon crimes in schools is nearly 0 percent" doesn't do much good when 20 elementary school kids were just murdered. Unless your position is that it isn't a problem we need to be concerned with, and we don't need to do anything differently to try to keep this from happening again.

When a shooter gets access to a firearm and goes to the school with it, is it better to have a licensed carrier there who can shoot back, or not? I say it is. Do you agree?

Individuals who are able to legally carry a gun don't undergo some kind of transformation because they are on school property vs being somewhere else. So let's reason this backwards. Do you think allowing licensed carriers to have a gun in public (not at there residence or business, let's say) in general is retarded?

I answered your question with the reasoning for the opinion I have. I'm not changing that opinion to fit yours, and I'm not interested in hearing your reasons for your opinion again. I'm well aware of your stance and I simply don't agree that "more folks holding guns" is a viable option in every situation when one speaks about gun crime prevention.

[Farley1324]

I apologize if I fell into that trap.

The 9th and 10th Amendments definitely apply to allowing the districts to decide this. The "one-size fits all" fallacy of many state and federal laws (including firearm-related) are their own downfall.

Sometimes it isn't a trap, it's just a not-very-good term somebody uses, and then it catches on. Sometimes, though, the term is selected because of the emotion reaction it brings, or because of it's misleading nature.

Currently whether or not legal carriers can be armed on school property is up to the state. In some states smaller/local governments may pass more restrictive laws than the state, in some other states there is a preemption law that prevents lower levels of government from passing more restriction than the state does.

[Farley1324]

I answered your question with the reasoning for the opinion I have. I'm not changing that opinion to fit yours, and I'm not interested in hearing your reasons for your opinion again. I'm well aware of your stance and I simply don't agree that "more folks holding guns" is a viable option in every situation when one speaks about gun crime prevention.

I believe nothing is a good option for every situation.

Do you believe that, when a shooter with a gun goes to a school, it is better to have a legally carrying citizen who can shoot back, or not?

Do you believe people should be able to carry guns at places that are not schools?

I'm just asking you for your thoughts and your opinions.

[KarlynSkuatrach]

I mentioned this before, but I don't think the term "arming teachers" accurately represents what most people (who are for more guns/allowing guns) are saying.

What I and many others support is the removal of restrictions that prohibit those who can legally carry from doing so on school property. "Arming teachers" makes it sound like going out and providing guns to those who do not already have them (or get them on their own of their own choosing)

As it relates to high schools, which was proposed earlier, the "(Law of) Unintended Consequences" factor is huge. I know you're astute regarding gun safety/hazard potential -- the nature of "kidz bein' kidz" compels some class jokers to jack around w/ the teacher and swipe their gun. Or, just in one second of a teacher being distracted (in a class of 50 rowdy kids) it just takes one moment and one charlatan. Even if not for nefarious reasons ("hey, I was only jokin' around") there's gonna be some missing guns. And sadly, not all missing guns will be guns that miss.

[im2manly]

The constitutional argument is dum

[ossizen]

Sometimes it isn't a trap, it's just a not-very-good term somebody uses, and then it catches on. Sometimes, though, the term is selected because of the emotion reaction it brings, or because of it's misleading nature.

Currently whether or not legal carriers can be armed on school property is up to the state. In some states smaller/local governments may pass more restrictive laws than the state, in some other states there is a preemption law that prevents lower levels of government from passing more restriction than the state does.

The Kansas Libertarian Party is attempting to sue four cities around the KC metro) on account of open carry in public buildings. The KLP fails to realize that Kansas Law says the State cannot prohibit localities from regulating open carry. The same state law is not preemptive.

[Farley1324]

As it relates to high schools, which was proposed earlier, the [i]"(Law of) Unintended Consequences" factor is huge. I know you're astute regarding gun safety/hazard potential -- the nature of "kidz bein' kidz" compels some class jokers to jack around w/ the teacher and swipe their gun. Or, just in one second of a teacher being distracted (in a class of 50 rowdy kids) it just takes one moment and one charlatan. Even if not for nefarious reasons ("hey, I was only jokin' around") there's gonna be some missing guns. And sadly, not all missing guns will be guns that miss.

Why doesn't that happen in other settings and situations? Children are around adults who carry guns all the times in all kinds of other locations besides schools.

[Farley1324]

The Kansas Libertarian Party is attempting to sue four cities around the KC metro) on account of open carry in public buildings. The KLP fails to realize that Kansas Law says the State cannot prohibit localities from regulating open carry. The same state law is not preemptive.

It's a real PITA when a state doesn't have preemption. The number of jurisdictions where a person must look up all of the laws in order to ensure compliance, especially for, say, traveling, is mind just crazy.

[Hishiad]

I believe nothing is a good option for every situation.

Do you believe that, when a shooter with a gun goes to a school, it is better to have a legally carrying citizen who can shoot back, or not? I believe preventing the gun from entering the school is the answer. Most of the recent shooters were legally carrying citizens themselves.

Do you believe people should be able to carry guns at places that are not schools? In no way is this question relevant to the topic of discussion. My answer will only lead you off topic more than you appear to already be going.

I'm just asking you for your thoughts and your opinions.

Players in the NFL wear helmets because of the amount of head injuries that were occurring, the information is what you'd call "statistical" in nature. So it is very relevant to be aware of the data and the trends. If there are ZERO guns in the school then there will be ZERO gun crimes.

[Farley1324]

If there are ZERO guns in the school then there will be ZERO gun crimes.

How do you propose we ensure that there will be ZERO guns in schools?

[Farley1324]

Up to #2!

[KarlynSkuatrach]

Why doesn't that happen in other settings and situations? Children are around adults who carry guns all the times in all kinds of other locations besides schools.

• It does happen in many other settings -- at a more isolated level. Some kid named Lanza swiped his mum's guns just the other day, if I read the newspapers correctly.
• Farking w/ the teacher by doing stuff you're not s'posed to do is a common thing, concentrated at a classroom setting, and easier to do than "Visit to PD Station Field Trip Day". 'Specially on "Sub" day.

Maybe you were just a real good kid in high school. For some others, it's the best seven years of their lives.

[Hishiad]

How do you propose we ensure that there will be ZERO guns in schools?

Well step 1. would be permitting staff from carrying inside the school. Step 2 would be preventing visitors/outside individuals from introducing guns into the school. You do that with limiting access points to the location, by requiring/creating proper protocol to search and scan people entering the school.


If no one enters the building with a gun, then there won't be a gun in the building.

[Farley1324]

• It does happen in many other settings -- at a more isolated level. Some kid named Lanza swiped his mum's guns just the other day, if I read the newspapers correctly.
• Farking w/ the teacher by doing stuff you're not s'posed to do is a common thing, concentrated at a classroom setting, and easier to do than "Visit to PD Station Field Trip Day". 'Specially on "Sub" day.

Maybe you were just a real good kid in high school. For some others, it's the best seven years of their lives.

So a high school kid stole a handgun off of his mother as she was carrying it? Tell me more about this.

[ossizen]

It's a real PITA when a state doesn't have preemption. The number of jurisdictions where a person must look up all of the laws in order to ensure compliance, especially for, say, traveling, is mind just crazy.

I live in one of the aforementioned cities. However, my town (population of 40,000) is among the safest places to live around the metro. Sure we have our fair share of crimes. We only had one murder in 2011 (and that one was via strangulation). About one every 5 years.

My childhood town averaged one about every 5-10 years if that. The last one was Alicia DeBolt. She was raped, dismembered, and charred. The cause of death wasn't specified. The stories in the Great Bend Tribune and the reports by the KBI never mentioned a firearm being used or otherwise.

[Farley1324]

Well step 1. would be permitting staff from carrying inside the school. Step 2 would be preventing visitors/outside individuals from introducing guns into the school. You do that with limiting access points to the location, by requiring/creating proper protocol to search and scan people entering the school.


If no one enters the building with a gun, then there won't be a gun in the building.

I would go along with your plan, provided that every single person goes through the screening every single time they enter, with absolutely no exceptions...and provided that there are multiple armed personnel present at all times to be at the entry/screening points (don't have to man them, others can, but the armed personnel need to be right there) and, preferably, randomly elsewhere in the building(s) as well.

[Farley1324]

I live in one of the aforementioned cities. However, my town (population of 40,000) is among the safest places to live around the metro. Sure we have our fair share of crimes. We only had one murder in 2011 (and that one was via strangulation). About one every 5 years.

My childhood town averaged one about every 5-10 years if that. The last one was Alicia DeBolt. She was raped, dismembered, and charred. The cause of death wasn't specified. The stories in the Great Bend Tribune and the reports by the KBI never mentioned a firearm being used or otherwise.

That is truly unfortunate.

Not sure why you are telling all of this though.

[Farley1324]

Also, I just googled her...some of my 'rules' would seem to be relevant here. "Nothing good happens after midnight" being most priminent. I'm not sure why a 14 year old girl was leaving for a party "just before midnight", where she met a 36 year old male...but I'll tell you what...no fukking way in hell my daughter will be leaving for a party just before midnight. Not without legit adult/parental presence, that is.

[KarlynSkuatrach]

So a high school kid stole a handgun off of his mother as she was carrying it? Tell me more about this.

I honestly don't understand this request. Regardless, even though high school was 30 yrs ago for me, I still remember some classic pranks. Stealing Mrs Crinklednipples gun would've been a great one -- had she been allowed in the classroom w/ one. And I was a "good" kid. Wouldn't have had a use for it. Now, imagine a kid who has a use .... it's not that far-fetched in the Unintended Consequences category.

[Farley1324]

I honestly don't understand this request. Regardless, even though high school was 30 yrs ago for me, I still remember some classic pranks. Stealing Mrs Crinklednipples gun would've been a great one -- had she been allowed in the classroom w/ one. And I was a "good" kid. Wouldn't have had a use for it.

I'm poking fun at the utterly silliness of comparing the two situations.

You might have a point about no good little punks trying to steal guns, but the 20 year old guy taking his mother's guns from the home is, well, obviously a very different situation.

[KarlynSkuatrach]

I'm poking fun at the utterly silliness of comparing the two situations.

You might have a point about no good little punks trying to steal guns, but the 20 year old guy taking his mother's guns from the home is, well, obviously a very different situation.

You were asking for a "not in the classroom" situation -- you asked for a different situation. I gave you one. Putting them in the classroom would magnify the amount. Not because of "bad kids" but just "Kidz bein' kidz".

[Farley1324]

You were asking for a "not in the classroom" situation. I gave you one.

I asked for a "not in the classroom" situation where a high school kid stole a handgun off of the person who was carrying it.

A 20 year old killing his mother and taking her guns from her house is incredibly different.

Putting them in the classroom would magnify amount. Not because of "bad kids" but just "Kidz bein' kidz".

I guess our definition of good/bad kids differs. I would never consider a 14-18 year old (high school age) 'kid' as "good" if s/he attempted to steal a gun off of the adult who was carrying it. I don't think my parents or any of the school employees would have considered said kid "good", either. But maybe that is different times/locations. Things vary as you go to different parts of the country.

[KarlynSkuatrach]

I asked for a "not in the classroom" situation where a high school kid stole a handgun off of the person who was carrying it.

A 20 year old killing his mother and taking her guns from her house is incredibly different.

I respect your level of gun attentiveness and I know you would never let this happen when you are distracted in the middle of your chalkboard algebra demonstration to have to break up a couple rowdies tussling over marbles in the back seats, collect homework, counsel Johnny's despondent 6th grade breakup, and figure out where you put your lunch in your lunch knapsack that some other kid stole back in 10:05/3rd period and you're just noticing that now. You'll probably never remove that gun in your waist holster and put in the top desk drawer, not even for a moment. Nor will a 3rd kid remove it whilst you're wrestling 2 others. Unfortunately, you're not Mrs. Crimplednipples.

I guess our definition of good/bad kids differs. I would never consider a 14-18 year old (high school age) 'kid' as "good" if s/he attempted to steal a gun off of the adult who was carrying it. I don't think my parents or any of the school employees would have considered said kid "good", either. But maybe that is different times/locations. Things vary as you go to different parts of the country.

You haven't spent enough time in "Law of Unintended Consequences" land. And I imagine you were a pretty good kid -- really good kid -- in school. :srs:

[Lencho]

You haven't spent enough time in "Law of Unintended Consequences" land. And I imagine you were a pretty good kid -- really good kid -- in school. :srs:

Even though this isn't an argument anyone is making, a large number of teachers carrying at school would result in something happening that nobody thought would happen. Guaranteed.

Farles never would've been the cause of it, nor would I (never got in trouble at school). But it would happen.

Farles, do you have the opportunity to be around teens much?

[Farley1324]

Even though this isn't an argument anyone is making, a large number of teachers carrying at school would result in something happening that nobody thought would happen. Guaranteed.

Farles never would've been the cause of it, nor would I (never got in trouble at school). But it would happen.

Farles, do you have the opportunity to be around teens much?

I did recently. If you recall, I just finished my bachelors degree this summer after going back to school. I also worked part time as a security assistant on campus. I couldn't do much, but I had a radio to police dispatch for requesting police. I could take ID's, record and report crap, kick them out of buildings for the day, and fill out complaints with the office of student integrity, which sometimes led to students receiving formal sanctions that went on their 'permanent record', etc. I also dealt with some real pieces of sh.it who absolutely did not belong there (some were not students, others were students for half of a semester) who, quite frankly, were pretty God damn dangerous little ****heads. Some were arrested after the police arrived to talk to them, for various reasons.

Lots of 18-19 year old freshman and their friends.