RANT: i am obese and on a phone

[kvk1]

Lencho, what do you teach in school (besides Advanced *******ry)?

Curls In The Rack 301

[theshoupguy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

THIS SOUNDS AWESOME*.

Seriously, how is this not in place?

*Still reading







edit# Maybe not such a good cover-all idea.

[Farley1324]

What's 'spot on', the moronic complaint about not having equal air time with the victims as the assualter on the first day, while family members were still being contacted, or the outrageous undermining of the team of professional investigators that are working to find the motive by claiming you know the reason...

FYI, Columbine is not what happened a day ago.

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.

It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. ----- and ---- are household names, but do you know the name of a single victim of Columbine? Disturbed people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem."

[kvk1]

THIS SOUNDS AWESOME*.

Seriously, how is this not in place?

*Still reading

edit# Maybe not such a good cover-all idea.

There is actually good chance it will be in place in the future.

A lot of the current social sciences literature notes that Europe could lead the way into a technocratic paradigm following a near-collapse of their European Union structure.

It's still a fringe theory though.

[Miketoc]

Has a teacher wrongfully used lethal force on a student? (lethal force can very easily be used without a firearm)
Do you think there is any causation between teachers being able to carry in Utah, and Utah not having one of these massacres?

Let me introduce you to a little school called University of Alabama in Huntsville.

That school where a lot of people who were disarmed by policy (carrying would risk firing or expulsion) were gunned down?

Yes, what about it?

What change(s) to gun laws do you propose to help keep that from happening again?

A policy is not a law, just because nobody has the balls to take it to court. Technically, it's legal in this state to carry on campus.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Farley1324]

Let me introduce you to a little school called University of Alabama in Huntsville.

Compelling.

A policy is not a law, just because nobody has the balls to take it to court. Technically, it's legal in this state to carry on campus.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes it is.

What problems has that caused??

[Final_Rep]

Thoughts...

Good debate should start with agreement. I think this debate does: we all agree that these events are terrible and are being perpetrated with guns. Where to go from there?

We should be careful with comparisons. Comparing other countries and cultures to our own can be valid but the complexity involved is huge and to address every relevant cultural and social variable could take a long, long time, if it's even doable at all. Claiming Switzerland does it (arms everyone), so we should do the same thing; this isn't a contributing point in a debate. It's an opener to further discourse about the differences between cultures but not a conclusion that solidifies a position. It requires more examination. Probably a lot, lot more.

To follow, arguing that more people should be armed is also a incomplete answer to this problem. Could arming everyone lessen the impact of mass killings, maybe prevent so many people from dying, maybe stop the crazy people when they've only killed 10 instead of 20? Sure. Is that the answer we need? That instead of 20 people dying only 10 died? Is 10 acceptable? How many is acceptable? I don't know the answer.

But let's look at this fact as well: gun control laws didn't lessen violent crime with guns, according to the charts Hola posted. Why is that?

It could be because those gun control laws obviously didn't take the guns out of the hands of criminals. The primary goal of the gun control laws themselves -- to take the guns away -- failed. Is that a failure of the logic behind the law, or is it a failure of enforcement of the law? If I create a seat belt law because I know seat belts are the safest way to drive, and people still die in accidents because they didn't wear their seat belts, does that mean the reasoning behind the law is flawed? No. It means we couldn't be sure people used their belts and people couldn't be bothered to actually understand how important the law was until it killed them.

I honestly doubt the average public is willing to take the time it takes to understand all of the issues involved and then engage in conversation and move policy in the right direction (*whatever that might be*). Of course that's supposedly why we have representation and politicians who will take this stuff forward for us. Too bad for us: they're incompetent or worse, in the pocket of whatever lobby has the most money.

I'm rambling...

[Miketoc]

Yes it is.

What problems has that caused??

I guess my point is, I knew people who brought guns to class at VT. There were still 22 people shot dead. VA is a carry state. Your Utah argument is ****. HTH.

[Lencho]

Lencho, what do you teach in school (besides Advanced *******ry)?

On the days when I'm giving a pop quiz, I yell "Surprise Buttsechs!"

[mjw8204]

So when you said that you disagree...what did that mean??

I said that if I was interested in arguing with you, whether I agree or not - and you don't know fck-all about what I think anyway - I would. Otherwise, I'll just disagree. It's pretty simple.

I don't know what makes you think you're entitled to get an argument from everyone that does not agree with you. If I were making it a point to tell you that you're wrong about everything you've said, then yeah, it's fair to expect a counterargument. But I haven't done that. Besides, let's be honest: you don't want debate - you just want to argue.

[Farley1324]

I guess my point is, I knew people who brought guns to class at VT. There were still 22 people shot dead. VA is a carry state. Your Utah argument is ****. HTH.

Licensed carriers can carry a concealed handgun to school (k-12 and college) in Utah, and it has been that way for a long time.

Why is that not a problem?

Explain.

I'm not seeing how it is a problem to allow licensed carriers to bring their guns with them when they go to a school/college.

[mjw8204]

On the days when I'm giving a pop quiz, I yell "Surprise Buttsechs!"

And all the kids put their heads down and their thumbs up.

And silently pray that they don't feel their thumb pressed down.

[Miketoc]

Compelling.

Well, you were acting like teachers have never used lethal force against students, this chick shot three people including 2 students. You ask for opinion, then you counter argument with nevers and always, that is generally a bad idea. At least Hola and Kvk are posting references. Just trying to make the back and forth less frustrating for me to read through. I can always counter a never and an always. And be careful with the Utah thing, remember your infinite monkey theorum.

[theshoupguy]

And all the kids put their heads down and their thumbs up.

And silently pray that they don't feel their thumb pressed down.

lmao

[Orlando1234977]

FYI, Columbine is not what happened a day ago.

That doesn't answer my question, so apparently you agree with both his points, one regarding the media coverage on Friday and two assuming we fully know the motive.

[Farley1324]

Well, you were acting like teachers have never used lethal force against students,

I asked a question.

this chick shot three people including 2 students. You ask for opinion, then you counter argument with nevers and always, that is generally a bad idea.

I simply asked if it had happened. Read what I wrote.

At least Hola and Kvk are posting references. Just trying to make the back and forth less frustrating for me to read through. I can always counter a never and an always. And be careful with the Utah thing, remember your infinite monkey theorum.

Can you quote my always/never that you are referring to?

Edit: What would you like a reference for/to?

[kvk1]

I'm kicking ass in my F1 manager league.



Nothing but wins or Top 5 in my first season.

Rubbish car.

Crap driver.

Still beating the established competition through superior strategy.

[Miketoc]

I asked a question.




I simply asked if it had happened. Read what I wrote.



Can you quote my always/never that you are referring to?

Your entire Utah argument, at least before you changed it. Nothing happens here because Utah allows carry. But I can cite examples with similar laws where it has happened, and given enough time it will probably happen in Utah too.

I'm choosing not to argue your "how is it a bad thing" that you said later, only against the "it stops things" which could just as easily be coincidental.

[therorschach]

A Kavak. What's the 'A' stand for?

[Final_Rep]

Well even if nobody else reads my absurdly long post above I think I realized something important while writing it.

So... that's good.

Thanks.

[Miketoc]

I'm kicking ass in my F1 manager league.



Nothing but wins or Top 5 in my first season.

Rubbish car.

Crap driver.

Still beating the established competition through superior strategy.

Kicking ass?! Your'e not even win/place/show!

[ossizen]

Looks like I left Missouri just in time.

Cases in point: Kansas City, Missouri and St. Louis. Neither though come close to the hellholes that are Chicago and DC.

[kvk1]

Kicking ass?! Your'e not even win/place/show!

Those guys already have an amazing car and staff in place.

They have like 100 races under their belt. I only finished my 5th race.

I don't even know why they're still in the rookie tier. If they weren't I'd probably be leading or 2nd.

A Kavak. What's the 'A' stand for?

Archimedes.

[Lencho]

Okay, the follow up is: Do you have any experiences, either first hand or otherwise, where something like this has happened?

Has a person who is a teacher, but is not at school at the moment, done something like that when carrying elsewhere?

Has a teacher wrongfully used lethal force on a student? (lethal force can very easily be used without a firearm)

Does choking count as lethal force? I've personally seen it twice.

Why hasn't it happened in Utah, where this has been legal for years? Do you think it will in the future?

Do you think there is any causation between teachers being able to carry in Utah, and Utah not having one of these massacres?

Because Utah's overall violent crime rate is so low?

Possibly to the last two.

Yes, there has. And I discussed this in my post where I addressed the motherjones article. Feel free to read it, I posted it twice.

Yeah, saw that.

Remember tha it isn't arming teachers. People who use that phrase immediately show their bias/ignorance on the topic.

What I, and others, are talking about is removing the prohibition that prevents citizens who legally carry almost everywhere else from doing so when they step onto school property.

My "arming teachers is a bad idea" was a direct response to a GF post.


Like I said a few pages ago, I would consider if it were allowed.


Here are my final thoughts:

1. I think I got lumped into an argument that I wasn't even trying to make.
2. My DO IT! response was trolling. I didn't think you'd take the time to go through that article like you did. Probably should've known better.
3. There have been 31 (I think?) school shootings starting with Columbine. That's about 2.5/year. We can talk until we're blue in the face about why they happen and what we can do to prevent them, but I'd bet that number isn't goin anywhere for a while.

[mjw8204]

I'm kicking ass in my F1 manager league.

Is this like fantasy Formula One?

[kvk1]

Cases in point: Kansas City, Missouri and St. Louis. Neither though come close to the hellholes that are Chicago and DC.

Nope.

[Farley1324]

Your entire Utah argument, at least before you changed it.

I didn't change it. I quoted my old post.

Would you mind quoting my entire utah argument that you say is ****?

Nothing happens here because Utah allows carry. But I can cite examples with similar laws where it has happened, and given enough time it will probably happen in Utah too.

I'm choosing not to argue your "how is it a bad thing" that you said later, only against the "it stops things" which could just as easily be coincidental.

Did I say "it stops things"?

I don't recall saying that. Could you quote where I said that, please?

[Miketoc]

If somebody came to my school with a gun I'd put my finger in the barrel and be like 'sup now biatch?

[kvk1]

Is this like fantasy Formula One?

I'm ashamed to admit, because of my known vitriol against fantasy football in this thread, but yes.

It is.

So, I'll just be in the corner wearing my hypocritical dunce hat.

[Final_Rep]

Well even if nobody else reads my absurdly long post above I think I realized something important while writing it.

So... that's good.

Thanks.

Tough break, FRep. Did you really think people were going to read a post that long? Especially when your normal post quality is so poor?