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  1. #61
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  2. #62
    H = T + V mslman71's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Medtreker View Post
    Interesting you say so. I am literally uneducated in regards to vegitarianism, so I value your opinion here.

    I would like to know what aspects you think are crap, in regards to being a vegitarian, and what aspects are quality. I could read that site and not pick up on the "garbage." Educate me please!
    Originally Posted by LowCarbDiabetic View Post
    I don't know that there is literal "garbage" there, imho, but there's considerable propaganda... only support his diet and ideas.
    ^ this


    "But my point is too much animal products is not conducive to longevity. But if size is your only goal, go for it."

    By definition and context, too much of anything is not conducive to longevity. This statement is asinine, by definition.


    "Bodybuilding diets are stupid because of the underlying motivation. Bodybuilders are concerned with getting big and getting big quickly. If its not about getting big then it is about getting cut and getting cut quickly. Both of these bodybuilding goals fail to address the scared little guy in the corner - your health.... My many years in the martial arts and bodybuilding gyms have shown me that bodybuilders will almost always put their muscle gains ahead of their health. They will try supplements without knowing the side effects, they will use fat burners without understanding how it works and so on."

    Let's see, there's only one bodybuilding diet, or one class of bodybuilding diets? What if one doesn't eat too much animal product (whatever the f' that means) and still partakes in body-building?
    Words like "many," "most," and "often" have no business in any reasonable objective assessment. In fact I can't tell what he is even trying to say here because he isn't pointing to a diet, he's pointing to an activity of which diet is an integral part, but he's not being specific. As far as I can tell he's telling people who aren't into body building (without ever defining it) that it's okay because if you are into bodybuilding you would necessarily have a bad diet to achieve your goals.

    "But my point is too much animal products is not conducive to longevity. "
    Again, by definition.

    "Unfortunately, most trainers and bodybuilders are influenced by what they read in exercise and bodybuilding magazines. "
    Again, "most." What the hell does this mean and how does it relate to bodybuilding diets being inherently unhealthy? These are people who lift and make poor decisions. Does this mean I don't know anything about cars or how to drive because I've seen automobile advertisements and caught a NASCAR race or two?


    "For example, Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population.1 Similar statistics are available for the high meat-consuming Maasai in Kenya. They eat a diet high in wild hunted meats and have the worst life expectancy in the modern world. Life expectancy is 45 years for women and 42 years for men. African researchers report that, historically, Maasai rarely lived beyond age 60. Adult mortality figures on the Kenyan Maasai show that they have a 50% chance of dying before the age of 59.2"

    I passed a large rock on the way to work today. I got a phone call from my dad. Ergo my father called because I passed that large rock on the way to work.
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  3. #63
    Registered User LowCarbDiabetic's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post
    Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population.
    What an incredibly misleading statistic.

    Inuit in Canada are several times more likely to commit suicide at a young age than the overall Canadian population (a staggering 21% report attempting to take their own life), they smoke more, drink more, 1 in 4 have done cocaine, they have a diet of doritos and ramen noodles and are a 12 hour plane ride (in good weather) from the nearest hospital IF a plane gets dispatched to them. But I'm sure access to health care, suicide, drug use and horrible diets has nothing to do with longevity... wow, stupid statistics are stupid.

    I wonder why he doesn't mention the recent study of over 1,000 Northern Quebec Inuit that shows those eating the "traditional" inuit diet (mostly protein and fat from whale/seal blubber, fish and wild game, almost NO carbohydrate) have LOWER cancer and heart disease rates than the rest of Canada.

    However MOST Inuit no longer eat the protective traditional diet. In fact, statistics show Inuit teenagers drink, on average, 1 liter (a quart for those that don't know) of soda pop per day as well as having 3x the trans-fats in their diet of Europeans. Trans-fats, refined sugars, drug use, suicide and a lack-of-access to health care are what's causing overall Inuit longevity problems, not their lack of a "plant based" diet.

    Vegan/vegetarian propagandists only fool those that can't do research, or are already sold on the dogma. I've nothing against vegetarian diets, especially ovo/lacto/pesco vegetarian diets... but I cannot stand propaganda.
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  4. #64
    Master Roshi IronCharles's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by bigtallox View Post
    bodybuilding is about building muscle not increasing health.
    After reading through this thread, I believe this is the most relevant statement.




    Certainly, an active lifestyle is more healthful than a sedentary one. However, if one's primary goal is longevity, then I don't think bodybuilding is the best method for achieving that.

    There is a reason that we are not naturally "excessively" muscled. The human body is programmed to attempt to maintain it's most efficient state. And that state is as streamlined as possible. The truth of the matter is, any excess body mass, be it fat or muscle, is more of a strain on the body's systems..... especially the cardiovascular. Yes, excess fat is worse for your health, for several reasons. But take for example, a person who has, over the years, packed on 40 pounds of lean body mass, or more. The heart has to work harder to irrigate all that extra tissue with blood. Veins and arteries enlarge to increase bloodflow. But what happens to the pump? It either enlarges to keep up, or it beats harder to move blood. And, when we stop lifting, why do we shrink back to "normal" size? Because that's the most efficient and less stressful state of physical being.

    Truth is, a lot of people don't want to admit that they want to look impressive. Bodybuilding is about ego. But it sounds better to try and rationalize our dedication by claiming it's for health reasons only. If your goal is to live as long as possible, then become a marathoner. Resting heart rate should be the gauge you are interested in, not percentage of muscle tissue.
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  5. #65
    AWOL highiso's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronCharles View Post
    After reading through this thread, I believe this is the most relevant statement.




    Certainly, an active lifestyle is more healthful than a sedentary one. However, if one's primary goal is longevity, then I don't think bodybuilding is the best method for achieving that.

    There is a reason that we are not naturally "excessively" muscled. The human body is programmed to attempt to maintain it's most efficient state. And that state is as streamlined as possible. The truth of the matter is, any excess body mass, be it fat or muscle, is more of a strain on the body's systems..... especially the cardiovascular. Yes, excess fat is worse for your health, for several reasons. But take for example, a person who has, over the years, packed on 40 pounds of lean body mass, or more. The heart has to work harder to irrigate all that extra tissue with blood. Veins and arteries enlarge to increase bloodflow. But what happens to the pump? It either enlarges to keep up, or it beats harder to move blood. And, when we stop lifting, why do we shrink back to "normal" size? Because that's the most efficient and less stressful state of physical being.

    Truth is, a lot of people don't want to admit that they want to look impressive. Bodybuilding is about ego. But it sounds better to try and rationalize our dedication by claiming it's for health reasons only. If your goal is to live as long as possible, then become a marathoner. Resting heart rate should be the gauge you are interested in, not percentage of muscle tissue.
    .

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  6. #66
    Lightweight Botika's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by RobertD2 View Post
    If you honestly have trouble eating 1500 calories a day you should run not walk to an eating disorder recovery center. You weigh more then I do and my breakfast can be close to 1000 calories. But you're 21????????????? What kind of screwed up body do you have that 1500 isn't a snack at your age?
    .

    I agree. I eat more than that on a cut.

    Personally I would rather build some muscle than have fatty deposits around my major organs.
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  7. #67
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    Originally Posted by mslman71 View Post

    "For example, Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population."
    .
    They might want to look at the studies on those same Greenlanders after they've moved to Europe and started eating an average European diet. They fared even worse.
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  8. #68
    Quitting is not an option thepainter5's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronCharles View Post
    After reading through this thread, I believe this is the most relevant statement.




    Certainly, an active lifestyle is more healthful than a sedentary one. However, if one's primary goal is longevity, then I don't think bodybuilding is the best method for achieving that.

    There is a reason that we are not naturally "excessively" muscled. The human body is programmed to attempt to maintain it's most efficient state. And that state is as streamlined as possible. The truth of the matter is, any excess body mass, be it fat or muscle, is more of a strain on the body's systems..... especially the cardiovascular. Yes, excess fat is worse for your health, for several reasons. But take for example, a person who has, over the years, packed on 40 pounds of lean body mass, or more. The heart has to work harder to irrigate all that extra tissue with blood. Veins and arteries enlarge to increase bloodflow. But what happens to the pump? It either enlarges to keep up, or it beats harder to move blood. And, when we stop lifting, why do we shrink back to "normal" size? Because that's the most efficient and less stressful state of physical being.

    Truth is, a lot of people don't want to admit that they want to look impressive. Bodybuilding is about ego. But it sounds better to try and rationalize our dedication by claiming it's for health reasons only. If your goal is to live as long as possible, then become a marathoner. Resting heart rate should be the gauge you are interested in, not percentage of muscle tissue.
    I understand the points that you are making but I feel you don't actually carry the thoughts as far as they can go.
    You mention the pump working harder and it seems to me that if the time is taken to strenghten that pump with cardio exercise then would it not be more efficient when pumping to more mass? The cardiovascular system itself benifits from regular cardio exercises to the point of strengthening the whole system overall and if done properly cardio does not have to be at the expense of burning lean muscle mass.
    You go onto say that being muscular is an ego thing and to some extent yes it is because we remember what it was like to not be muscular but that also doesn't end there. For many people (myself included) work is physical in nature and the strength/stamina increase benifits the worker. I work in construction where many times production is the focus. For me to keep doing my job well and at a level that needs to be maintained as I age, being stronger and better conditioned than most of my co-workers allows me to have the peace of mind that I more than pull my weight and get the work done. I am happy to out work most guys half my age simply for job security.

    As far as 'shrinking back to size' that has as much to do with the lack of required strength once we become sedentary and that shrinking doesn't happen all that fast if nutrition is provided so that protein isn't scavanged from muscle tissue. Will a marathoner's lifestyle lead to longevity? Perhaps but I also read that those long races may actually hurt the heart over time. Now I am not buying into that but that arguement has been put forward.

    Personally, I lift weights because I like the strength, the strength builds muscle which I put to use in tasks I need to perform. I also choose to run long distances, half marathons are my preferred race distance, so that my heart, cardiovascular system and muscles all do their part in allowing me to maintain a heathly and active lifestyle. I believe that we need a balanced approach to fitness which will produce a longer life. Sadly, like many others, I did a lot of unhealthy things before I smartened up so life for me may not be as long as it could have been but I plan of having quality of life for as long as I can.
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  9. #69
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    Originally Posted by fit4life1991 View Post
    This is honestly all I'm saying. People on this site claim that bodybuilding is a super healthy lifestyle, but I'm just saying it isn't one of the healthiest out there. I agree that most of us on here are healthier than 90% of Americans though. So once my testosterone levels start to fall, I will probably go back to my normal lifestyle of 1.5k calories with moderate weight training and cardio. I personally believe bodybuilding has made me unhealthier. Because eating more than 1.5k calories is a challenge for myself, I buy ice cream and chips (and I don't even like the taste of junk food, I'd prefer salad to a bag of chips any day of the week) to get the calories in. I would not be eating this crap if it weren't for the weight gain.
    I'm lost...
    isn't this all a choice? Don't you have a choice? To "body build" or not? To do it like the freaks, or do it like an avg joe, there is a big difference between the two.

    To do it for the purpose of gaining muscle mass, vs. just to get a good toning in, vs. trying to gain strength...

    I just don't see how "bodybuilding" is inherently "unhealthy". Are the freaks that do this professionally with AAS unhealthy? Yeah, pretty sure they are. But who told you you had to be that way?

    Who told you you HAD to eat 3-4k calories a day to be "successful"? Who determined what your goals are? Who determines what you want and what you do to achieve that?

    YOU.

    Nobody is stuffing ice cream an cookies down your throat.

    So I am confused why you are criticizing something that is a CHOICE, and also, something that has several differing levels of devotion/commitment. Nobody is saying that you HAVE to eat 1g protein per lb body weight! It is just the recommendations for the best results!

    YOU decide what is healthy or not, what your level of acceptance is, what is healthy and acceptable for YOU. If you are coming here to have it "proven" that BB is unhealthy or not, that is just silly.

    I would suggest though, keep reading and researching, because mostly natural body building techniques and diets are NOT unhealthy for the avg otherwise "healthy" person. This hulabaloo about people who are more lean or skinny/deprived live longer, etc, is just junior high school hypotheses about a far more complex set of data...
    Nobody improves without trying. Period.

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  10. #70
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    Originally Posted by fit4life1991 View Post
    About the eating dirty thing. During a typical day (so 4 out of 7 days in a week), I eat 0 junk food, but when I'm struggling I eat some chips as a backup. Lol and I weigh 148 now with a waist 1 inch smaller for those calling me out. :P
    I'm trying to find the relevance of this...

    At 21, these kinds of thoughts prevail...
    Nobody improves without trying. Period.

    Listen to your wisdom as you gain it. Rarely are things lost forever. Change is usually always possible. Second chances sometimes reveal better results than first chances. Always look to believe that you can and will be better. You're not done until you give up.

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  11. #71
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    Originally Posted by thepainter5 View Post
    I understand the points that you are making but I feel you don't actually carry the thoughts as far as they can go.
    You mention the pump working harder and it seems to me that if the time is taken to strenghten that pump with cardio exercise then would it not be more efficient when pumping to more mass? The cardiovascular system itself benifits from regular cardio exercises to the point of strengthening the whole system overall and if done properly cardio does not have to be at the expense of burning lean muscle mass.
    You go onto say that being muscular is an ego thing and to some extent yes it is because we remember what it was like to not be muscular but that also doesn't end there. For many people (myself included) work is physical in nature and the strength/stamina increase benifits the worker. I work in construction where many times production is the focus. For me to keep doing my job well and at a level that needs to be maintained as I age, being stronger and better conditioned than most of my co-workers allows me to have the peace of mind that I more than pull my weight and get the work done. I am happy to out work most guys half my age simply for job security.

    As far as 'shrinking back to size' that has as much to do with the lack of required strength once we become sedentary and that shrinking doesn't happen all that fast if nutrition is provided so that protein isn't scavanged from muscle tissue. Will a marathoner's lifestyle lead to longevity? Perhaps but I also read that those long races may actually hurt the heart over time. Now I am not buying into that but that arguement has been put forward.

    Personally, I lift weights because I like the strength, the strength builds muscle which I put to use in tasks I need to perform. I also choose to run long distances, half marathons are my preferred race distance, so that my heart, cardiovascular system and muscles all do their part in allowing me to maintain a heathly and active lifestyle. I believe that we need a balanced approach to fitness which will produce a longer life. Sadly, like many others, I did a lot of unhealthy things before I smartened up so life for me may not be as long as it could have been but I plan of having quality of life for as long as I can.
    There is a difference between raising the heart rate temporarily during periods of exercise, and having an always elevated heart rate due to carrying extra mass. With your reasoning, obese people should be in prime cardiological health, due to their heart and circulatory system having to work hard all the time. Also, strength training, which is your focus, is not always the same as bodybuilding, in which hypertrophy is the goal, with any added strength being a byproduct and not the main goal. Personally, I lift to get big. They don't pay me extra to lift more where I work, so I'm not really interested in strength. But I would like to win trophies for looking better than my competition, when I get to that point.
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  12. #72
    Quitting is not an option thepainter5's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by IronCharles View Post
    [size-2]There is a difference between raising the heart rate temporarily during periods of exercise, and having an always elevated heart rate due to carrying extra mass[/size]. With your reasoning, obese people should be in prime cardiological health, due to their heart and circulatory system having to work hard all the time. Also, strength training, which is your focus, is not always the same as bodybuilding, in which hypertrophy is the goal, with any added strength being a byproduct and not the main goal. Personally, I lift to get big. They don't pay me extra to lift more where I work, so I'm not really interested in strength. But I would like to win trophies for looking better than my competition, when I get to that point.
    Maybe I am thinking in a simplistic way but do we not grow muscle/strength by temporaily lifting weights? Would not doing cardio temporarily, also strengthen the heart muscle to be able to handle more work/stress and minimizing the extra lean mass we carry? Also is that extra lean mass also more efficient to carry than excess fat?
    Obese people do nothing extra/temorarily to strengthen their heart/cardiovascular system. The work load on their heart is mostly constant because if they regularily did more work(exercise) then they would using that extra work to benefit their heart instead of just carrying all that extra weight and being sedentary. Do our bodies not get used to what ever work load we place on it making it necessary to up the ante to continue seeing improvements?
    As for work, they may not pay us more to do the physical part of our jobs but I have seen too many guys worry about being employable as they get older. Weight lifting, running and other exercise is simply a way to counter the 'he's to old for the job rquirements (physical) which happens in construction all to often.
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  13. #73
    Master Roshi IronCharles's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by thepainter5 View Post
    Maybe I am thinking in a simplistic way but do we not grow muscle/strength by temporaily lifting weights? Would not doing cardio temporarily, also strengthen the heart muscle to be able to handle more work/stress and minimizing the extra lean mass we carry?
    I think everyone agrees that exercise is beneficial to health. However, I don't think the OP is saying that exercising is not good for your health. The thread is about bodybuilding, or packing on extra mass.

    Weight lifting, running and other exercise is simply a way to counter the 'he's to old for the job rquirements (physical) which happens in construction all to often.
    Totally agree. However, this thread is about bodybuilding, specifically.

    Also is that extra lean mass also more efficient to carry than excess fat?
    Muscle is twice as heavy as fat. It also requires more blood than adipose tissue (fat). Why do you feel it would be more efficient to carry? Why will your body choose to burn unused muscle for fuel, before it will burn excess fat?




    I'm not anti-bodybuilding in the least. I'm happy to accept potential risks to achieve my (drug free) goals. I'm definitely better off weight training than I would be as a sedentary person. But the health benefits decrease proportionate to the amount of mass I carry.
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  14. #74
    Registered User desoto's Avatar
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    Does the OP think every person who does weights want to be mr olympia? who says a mr olympia is a health example. To do bodybuilding is related to anybody who wants to increase muscle mass. I have built an amount of muscle which benefits me in my job to not injure myself at work doing things (like lifting) which the work place health and safety say will definitely injure me.
    Is being weak and prone to injury healthier?
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  15. #75
    Registered User tsoden's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by fit4life1991 View Post
    Please explain that to me. It is actually one of the top reasons why I do not want to continue lifting for extended periods of time, because I don't want to die young because of my health habits at a younger age. I eat extremely clean, but a high calorie, high protein diet is not even remotely good for your health.

    I can understand how it is healthy for some people, if the alternative is being overweight or obese, but for someone like myself that I can 100% GUARENTEE will never be overweight for a second of my life (I struggle to eat over 1.5k calories a day, although I still force over 3k into my mouth), larger calorie consumption is very taxing on all of your organs, and particular the liver from the protein consumption. I know that the key to longevity is a low calorie intake (with moderate weight training and cardio), but I also don't particularly care to look like bones like I have my whole life so I force food down my throat.

    I just really want to hear from the people that "claim" bodybuilding is healthy though, because I really really don't understand that argument, regardless of how clean your diet is.


    Edit: The only reason why I made this topic is because I believe that this website is misleading people into believing that the bodybuilding lifestyle is a healthy lifestyle. I believe the complete contrary. Bodybuilding will sculpt your body and make you "look" healthy, but a 1.5k diet with adequate fiber, protein (like 0.5x BW), vitamins, minerals, antioxidants and moderate cardio and weight training is a significantly healthier alternative. If this lifestyle made you look good, I would switch to this in a heartbeat, but I am narcissistic so I will continue this sport instead.
    I think it really depends on your definition of bodybuilding. I hesitate, but would agree that bodybuilding CAN be unhealthy... especially with those who go through rapid weight loss and weight gains. I know someone who competed and after competition gained 45 lbs in under a month... now I can't say that is overly healthy. Also, for those going into competition... drinking gallons upon gallons of water daily... can be really unhealthy... dropping bodyweight to single digits (depending on how low) can also be very unhealthy...

    However there are a lot of folks who don't take these extreems and look fantastic and are probably VERY healthy... So I guess the bottom line is, Bodybuilding can be either - as it really depends on how you take part and what you do.
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  16. #76
    Meathead drudixon's Avatar
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    Seems to me this entire thread is a lame attempt to justify why you're 145lbs...
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  17. #77
    Registered User Guinea-pig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by tsoden View Post
    I think it really depends on your definition of bodybuilding. I hesitate, but would agree that bodybuilding CAN be unhealthy... especially with those who go through rapid weight loss and weight gains. I know someone who competed and after competition gained 45 lbs in under a month... now I can't say that is overly healthy. Also, for those going into competition... drinking gallons upon gallons of water daily... can be really unhealthy... dropping bodyweight to single digits (depending on how low) can also be very unhealthy...

    However there are a lot of folks who don't take these extreems and look fantastic and are probably VERY healthy... So I guess the bottom line is, Bodybuilding can be either - as it really depends on how you take part and what you do.
    In competitive bodybuilding I agree. How can a person claim to be in his best shape if he is not experiencing maximum health?

    It happens thought some of the diets that contest training bodybuilders follow cannot really be justified for maximum health.
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  18. #78
    Consistency. Intensity. Medtreker's Avatar
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    What have we learned today?

    Eat Big
    Lift Big
    Get Big
    Have a Big Heart Attack!!

    wh-wh-wh-WHAT?
    Tony

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  19. #79
    Registered User Guinea-pig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Medtreker View Post
    What have we learned today?

    Eat Big
    Lift Big
    Get Big
    Have a Big Heart Attack!!

    wh-wh-wh-WHAT?
    We have learned that good results in bodybuilding can be obtained with a limited knowledge in both bodybuilding and nutriition.
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  20. #80
    Consistency. Intensity. Medtreker's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Guinea-pig View Post
    We have learned that good results in bodybuilding can be obtained with a limited knowledge in both bodybuilding and nutriition.
    Hummm.... Well, You would know. You are The Guinea-pig !
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  21. #81
    Registered User Guinea-pig's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by medtreker View Post
    hummm.... Well, you would know. You are the guinea-pig !
    lol!!!
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  22. #82
    The Cake Is A Lie! StressMonkey's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ljimd View Post
    The kid's right. I've been sick for 50 years.
    I loved this post you made on the topic:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post950234103
    There will come a day when I tire of listening to 80's music. That day is not today.

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  23. #83
    Registered User Sulo-Eno's Avatar
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    From what I have read and come to believe, there isn't a problem with bodybuilding per se. If you keep a relatively low BF, it will actually help you as you get older, when muscle mass generally deteriorates. Most of the problems I have read about have steroids at the source; if I thought lifting were intrinsically detrimental, I would quit and just run. I think a guy like Jack LaLanne is a good representative of people who try to be healthy while "bodybuilding."
    Sulo
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  24. #84
    Kicking sarcopenia's azz ljimd's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by StressMonkey View Post
    I loved this post you made on the topic:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...#post950234103
    Thanks SM. I amazed at the amount of psyco-babble folks read into training. Rarely do people refer to a pure unadulterated love of training as their motivation.

    On spread man.
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  25. #85
    Registered User charliedrake's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Mayo Clinic

    The Mayo clinic advises lifting weights for older folks in keeping strength of course but also strong skeleton structure.
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