Although, as a disclaimer, I should note that overhead presses were part of my routine for years. I stopped performing them (originally temporarily) due to a sternoclavicular injury, and realized that through increasing isolation volume, I could progress equally. I also perform 30+ sets of horizontal pushes per week. Trial and error!
Thread: The Shoulder Press Debate
11-25-2012, 11:40 AM #31Bodybuilding is 60% training and 50% diet. Yes that adds up to 110%, because that's what you should be giving it. Change the inside, and the physique will follow.
11-25-2012, 11:49 AM #32
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11-25-2012, 12:20 PM #33
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OP I do understand what you are saying and you have a point there, but I'm not about to give up my dumbbell shoulder pressing for anybody. It is probably my favourite exercise thus far (it never was before) since I've seen the most gains from it lately. I stalled in the dumbbell shoulder press for months until around two months ago. Now it has jumped from 32.5 Kg for about 8 reps to 38 Kg for 6 reps. My shoulders have got noticeably bigger too, especially in shirts. I have not yet had any shoulder problems and I reckon that warming up the rotator cuffs before the lift help out a lot as well.Bear mode engaged crew
11-25-2012, 12:24 PM #34
11-25-2012, 05:31 PM #35
I will say that bench press hits front delts more than overhead press hits chest. So, if I had to choose just one, bench press would be the winner. Though, it would be best to include some incline work in that bench press. It may be optimal to do both, but if someone has a shoulder injury or something, I don't think they'd be missing that much to just do flat bench, incline bench, and upright rows.
11-25-2012, 09:52 PM #36
I personally do not do any excercises for my front delts. They are already huge just from doing presses. I just focus on the side and rear delts. In my opinion there is no need to be isolating the front delts. Especially with something like front raises.
DB presses on the other hand are more of a compound movement. I have shoulder issues though so I can't go too heavy.
Last edited by Benjo87; 11-25-2012 at 10:05 PM.
11-26-2012, 06:28 AM #37
11-26-2012, 06:29 AM #38
11-26-2012, 12:35 PM #39
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11-26-2012, 12:53 PM #40
11-26-2012, 01:50 PM #41
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What is enough stimulation though really? I'll use an example seen all the time on this website: You don't need to do direct arm work as the compound lifts you would be doing anyways like pullups bench press rows and overhead pressing provide "enough" stimulation to the bis and tris.
This is often met with criticism, calling powerlifters fat and a general defensive/offended tone by the physique builders.
How is this situation any different? I'm sure the actual answer lies somewhere in the middle where group A of lifters never have to ohp to see significant improvements while group B might not see any improvements without ohp in thier routine.
Same goes for abs calves and forearms really. You have people on both sides saying one way is "enough" and people on both sides will look good and be strong. Which is the right answer? Dealers choice per usual I'd say.Current Bests (raw/singleply)
Squat- 435 / 512.5
Bench- 280 / 308.5
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11-26-2012, 03:32 PM #42
I rarely see the advice "do this exercise" given with the idea that it should be done all the time and at the expense of other exercises. So when someone says "you should squat" I agree with that advice. How often, what variation (front, goblet, back with low bar or high, blah blah), reps/sets... that is all on the lifter and what fits their goals and ability to recover. I would be far less comfortable endorsing some specific prescription for the squat. I'm even less comfortable telling someone to NEVER do something.
This issue strikes me the same way. I'm happy enough to admit that people may not want/need to OHP 3x week, and that this tactic may not be best for shoulder hypertrophy. But the idea that you don't need it? That seems odd to me. I hate talking in terms of what you need, because this somehow whittles down every workout to 2-3 exercises that hit every muscle in the body and you don't NEED more than that. Well, I think that is an awfully dumb argument for lots of reasons. What you need comes directly from your goals, and what you need will change over time. Beyond that I think it comes down to how much sense does it make to start taking options away? Very little.GoRuck Challenge Journal: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=150446113
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11-26-2012, 03:52 PM #43
I have severe Shoulder DOMS from today's full body training session. These were all the pressing/shoulder movements I performed;and I should also add I have very good shoulders especially for only <2 years of training(not bragging whatsoever,being realistic).
Incline Bench - 1 set
Incline Dumbbell Bench - 1 set
Flat Flye - 1 set(meh, some front delt involvement, just adding it in here anyways)
Very Close Grip Bench - 1 set
Upright Row - 1 set
Side Lateral Raise - 1 set
Face Pull - 1 set (meh, some front delt involvement, just adding it in here anyways)
I have tried several times to add ONE shoulder press in my full body training session, and they are never recovered 2 days later when I hit it again; also I start getting shoulder pain/the feel of inflammation. Unless I got rid of one bench movement, I don't see how I could/why I should put them in the training routine. My shoulders are insanely dominant,and I don't even train the front deltoid directly .
I should mention, that even Arnold is his "Modern Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding" lists INCLINE BARBELL BENCH as a MAIN SHOULDER EXERCISE
Is he not a serious bodybuilder? Yes - he is a bodybuilder that did both. He also trained Shoulders and Chest on separate days; and still wrote that Incline Barbell/Dumbbell is a SHOULDER exercise(and they were also included in the chest section).
I suppose people also are going to want to argue that John Meadows isn't a serious bodybuilder?
I am not arguing whatsoever that people shouldn't OHP. The question in the original post had to do with performing Full Body with a high frequency of 3-4 times a week where you are already training every single muscle in every session; and have lots of pressing/etc. already in the program. This is drastically different than somebody who does the "bro-split" once a week training such as :
Mon - Chest, Tue- Legs, Wed- Back, Thu- Shoulders, Fri- Off, Sat- Arms, Sun- Off .... etc.
Obviously if you have a shoulder only day, or another variation of training as such(even 2x a week frequency), then it only makes sense to use straight Vertical Press as the first/main Deltoid movement; although the difference in how much better it would be versus High Incline Barbell is still very questionable. As it stands, most bodybuilders you see already turn their vertical press INTO a HIGH-INCLINE BENCH. I rarely, if EVER see anybody actually doing them strict, unless it's BEHIND-THE-NECK.
11-26-2012, 04:11 PM #44
11-26-2012, 05:27 PM #45
But since your shoulders are extremely dominant, you may not need that if your shoulders are growing (if that's your goal) and you're satisfied with that.
My triceps are extremely dominant and I view performing stuff like CGBP as basically a waste of time for me in conjuction with the rest of my exercise choices, but if you feel your triceps benefit from that than go for it. My chest grows relatively easy and some people myself included may view performing Incline Bench (assuming BB, Smith or machine since you did not specify) on top of Incline DB as redundant, but if you've pick that than I'd assume you picked it for a reason in that it's beneficial to you. Nothing wrong with that at all. All of these things fall under what works for you as an individual.
Bottom line is if you are going to hit your upper body with that amount of frequency then somethings gotta give, and you've chosen to make OHP the lower priority for you. Nothing wrong with that either, but other people who may discover that they get better results from doing things differently or even a lower frequency for different body parts may view their training implementation differently overall.
I can't argue with you about what you feel works for you. That full body every session stuff doesn't work for me as good as my own body part frequency learned over time and observation. I could do full body everytime, but then I'd be training just to be training and there would be no benefit in that other than "feeling" good in the gym but getting less out of it.
11-26-2012, 05:33 PM #46
11-26-2012, 08:13 PM #47
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I only do wide grip upright rows from time to time, otherwise I don't do them. Just recently did them with DBs and my rotator cuff felt much better than with the barbell, so I may start using these more often."...that's the great virtue of the free market, of the private market. It enables people...who hate one another...who don't speak the same language...who would fight one another if they had the chance, to cooperate economically. We were able to deal with China when China was a communist state. Even though we thought that that was a terrible arrangement, we could still cooperate. And that's what markets enable people to do. They bring freedom with them."
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11-27-2012, 01:03 AM #48
That's all nitpicking. Who said what, who did what, or didn't do, who is a "serious" bodybuilder.
For the absolute majority, OHP can not only be of no harm, but is incredibly helpful. It is a basic movement from heaven for shoulder development. End of story.bb.com, a place that turned Deadlift into a forearm isolation exercise
and a place where 99% of 21 year olds have bad back and knees.
11-27-2012, 05:22 AM #49
11-27-2012, 07:07 AM #50
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well in my opinion the shoulder press was made up for just that, to isolate the shoulder only. i understand that while doing chest you may activate some shoulder muscles into it, but it shouldn't be where your delts are sore the next day in my opinion. if thats the case, you might wanna look closely at your form. the day after i do chest, all my soreness is in my chest region, not my shoulders whatsoever. so i would recommend you lower the weight and focus all the pressing movements on your chest cause you might be going to heavy and activating the shoulder.NGA Natural bodybuilder
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11-27-2012, 07:17 AM #51
11-27-2012, 07:20 AM #52
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