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  1. #1
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    If a country could not borrow or inflate its currency,

    Its government would be much smaller and the country more prosperous and safer.


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    Not saying you don't have a point to make, but how do you explain that the "best" most developed countries in the world have the biggest govs, borrow the most, & print the most money?

    Most of the "conservative" posters on the R/P (not saying you, particularly) have a major hard-on for conditions seen in 3rd world or developing countries like china/brazil, but wouldn't go there even if they were giving out free protien powder & fish oil...
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    Then where would I get my free hand outs? Waiting in line would prove to be much less profitable.

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    Registered User fatneckbeard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    Not saying you don't have a point to make, but how do you explain that the "best" most developed countries in the world have the biggest govs, borrow the most, & print the most money?

    Most of the "conservative" posters on the R/P (not saying you, particularly) have a major hard-on for conditions seen in 3rd world or developing countries like china/brazil, but wouldn't go there even if they were giving out free protien powder & fish oil...
    The "best" countries didn't get to where they are through big govt. Its only until just recently have a lot of these developed countries adopting a socialist system, you can already see the decline of these countries in GDP growth
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    Originally Posted by fatneckbeard View Post
    The "best" countries didn't get to where they are through big govt. Its only until just recently have a lot of these developed countries adopting a socialist system, you can already see the decline of these countries in GDP growth
    I dunno, I can just comment on what I see in real life around the world...and that seems to be the case, both ways....living conditions just better for the masses as a whole?

    Post WWII U.S., even....was much more "big gov", higher taxes, etc then too.

    The conditions you describe are seen in developing countries or like 100 years ago for 1st world countries.
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    Not saying you don't have a point to make, but how do you explain that the "best" most developed countries in the world have the biggest govs, borrow the most, & print the most money?

    Most of the "conservative" posters on the R/P (not saying you, particularly) have a major hard-on for conditions seen in 3rd world or developing countries like china/brazil, but wouldn't go there even if they were giving out free protien powder & fish oil...
    Where are these "best" countries?

    Canada, Australia and the Scandinavians?

    Lets have a look at what they have in common:

    1) massive resources for export
    2) Small populations relative to land size
    3) Homogeneous populations
    4) Isolated from major conflict

    Lets have a look at the best countries that have

    1) no resources
    2) massive populations and no land
    3) multicultural population
    4) have no way to protect themselves

    Singapore and Hong Kong

    No surprise that Singapore and Hong Kong are low taxing, small government capitalist havens. Now imagine they had access to what Canada, Aus and co did.
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  7. #7
    Registered User jacklambert58's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by ICrapBig View Post
    Where are these "best" countries?

    Canada, Australia and the Scandinavians?

    Lets have a look at what they have in common:

    1) massive resources for export
    2) Small populations relative to land size
    3) Homogeneous populations
    4) Isolated from major conflict

    Lets have a look at the best countries that have

    1) no resources
    2) massive populations and no land
    3) multicultural population
    4) have no way to protect themselves

    Singapore and Hong Kong

    No surprise that Singapore and Hong Kong are low taxing, small government capitalist havens. Now imagine they had access to what Canada, Aus and co did.
    Wut?? The US is closer to Canada-Scandanavia than Sing/Hong Kong.....guess where I want to live?...and where do you live & want to live?
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    Registered User fatneckbeard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    I dunno, I can just comment on what I see in real life around the world...and that seems to be the case, both ways....living conditions just better for the masses as a whole?

    Post WWII U.S., even....was much more "big gov", higher taxes, etc then too.

    The conditions you describe are seen in developing countries or like 100 years ago for 1st world countries.
    It was tiny compared to today. The US govt is bigger than it has ever been right now. We all see what money printing did for Japan. They went from being top 3 in developed countries and are now not even on the radar
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    Registered User jacklambert58's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by fatneckbeard View Post
    It was tiny compared to today. The US govt is bigger than it has ever been right now. We all see what money printing did for Japan. They went from being top 3 in developed countries and are now not even on the radar
    I dunno...I hear the economist consensus to explain Japan's "lost decade" is they didn't print enough money & instead chose austerity to deal with there bubble brust leading to contraction...they also have a huge problem with an aging population and very low birth rate...in fact I believe japan has been trying to devalue its currency for close to a year now & seeing some positive results, if not for the tsunami & pissing off the chinese market.
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    Wut?? The US is closer to Canada-Scandanavia than Sing/Hong Kong.....guess where I want to live?...and where do you live & want to live?
    You stupidly suggest that the "best" countries happen to be socialist. I happen to point out that their success is a result of the factors I listed more than their governance. I then put forward examples of what can be achieved without those advantages when capitalism is allowed to flourish.

    Does America have

    1) massive resources
    2) small population relative to land size
    3) homogeneous population?

    No, they dont. Which means trying to Sweden it up is phucking retarded. Your demographics make you closer to Singapore than Norway.
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    Registered User fatneckbeard's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    I dunno...I hear the economist consensus to explain Japan's "lost decade" is they didn't print enough money & instead chose austerity to deal with there bubble brust leading to contraction...they also have a huge problem with an aging population and very low birth rate...in fact I believe japan has been trying to devalue its currency for close to a year now & seeing some positive results, if not for the tsunami & pissing off the chinese market.
    That's the problem. The "economist consensus" are big-govt advocates or special interest. Japan has been continuing to devalue its currency, further exacerbating their two-decade long recession. Austerity wasn't the solution, it was the problem. Everything you stated..is the complete opposite of what really happened
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    If a government could not borrow, it would collapse in the event of war, economic downturn, or major natural disaster. I don't see how it's even remotely possible to have a currency immune to inflation or deflation.
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    Originally Posted by ICrapBig View Post
    You stupidly suggest that the "best" countries happen to be socialist. I happen to point out that their success is a result of the factors I listed more than their governance. I then put forward examples of what can be achieved without those advantages when capitalism is allowed to flourish.

    Does America have

    1) massive resources
    2) small population relative to land size
    3) homogeneous population?

    No, they dont. Which means trying to Sweden it up is phucking retarded. Your demographics make you closer to Singapore than Norway.
    Dude, I didn't say anything about "socialism". Stop being so partisan & caught up in labels & the charactures that come with such limited thinking and you may be able to see past your anger.

    The US has massive resources & is closer to Norway than Singapore, as a whole. Resources, rule of law, preventing extreme income disparity, ie. A middle class, educated masses, etc.

    Enjoy your Thanksgiving turkey next year in Singapore!...my original point - why the hard-on for 3rd world condition?
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    Originally Posted by fatneckbeard View Post
    That's the problem. The "economist consensus" are big-govt advocates or special interest. Japan has been continuing to devalue its currency, further exacerbating their two-decade long recession. Austerity wasn't the solution, it was the problem. Everything you stated..is the complete opposite of what really happened
    Ok - we just disagree on the underlying facts, then...not much to further discuss, here.
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    Originally Posted by GrokTheCube View Post
    If a government could not borrow, it would collapse in the event of war, economic downturn, or major natural disaster. I don't see how it's even remotely possible to have a currency immune to inflation or deflation.
    The value of debt will fluctuate based on the market's assessment of government policy. Some new, expensive war or corporate welfare program, and the value would fall, as it should, meaning we would have fewer of both.
    The answer to a society without the business cycle of inflation and deflation is simple. There is no ideal supply of money in a society. Any quantity of money will do, so long as the quality of the money is sound. Prices adjust based on the existing money supply. If production rises and the money supply remains stable, the purchasing power of the money will rise. If production falls, the purchasing power of money will fall.
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    Dude, I didn't say anything about "socialism". Stop being so partisan & caught up in labels & the charactures that come with such limited thinking and you may be able to see past your anger.

    The US has massive resources & is closer to Norway than Singapore, as a whole. Resources, rule of law, preventing extreme income disparity, ie. A middle class, educated masses, etc.

    Enjoy your Thanksgiving turkey next year in Singapore!...my original point - why the hard-on for 3rd world condition?
    Lol, third world condition?

    Bro...

    Economist Intelligence Unit: World's Most Livable Cities survey 2011: Singapore is ranked 4th on the Economist Intelligence Unit's Asia Most Livable City survey[1]

    Singapore is ranked 1st in 201 on Gallup's Potential Net Migration Index.[2]

    Singapore is ranked No. 1 for Asian expatriates in 2010 on ECA International’s Location Ratings Survey.[3]

    Singapore is ranked the 15th most liveable city worldwide in the Monocle liveable city index.

    FutureBrand: Country Brand Index 2009, ranked 13 out of 102 brands (ranked 4 in the Asia-Pacific region)[4]

    Best Country Brand – Conferences, ranked 3 out of 102 brands
    \
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    Singapore ranked Asia’s top City of Opportunity and ninth amongst 26 cities worldwide by PricewaterhouseCoopers.
    They have to import water.

    Their standard of living is so far above the average Americans its not funny.

    Its no where near what Norway, Canada or Australia are.
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    Originally Posted by fatneckbeard View Post
    The value of debt will fluctuate based on the market's assessment of government policy. Some new, expensive war or corporate welfare program, and the value would fall, as it should, meaning we would have fewer of both.
    The answer to a society without the business cycle of inflation and deflation is simple. There is no ideal supply of money in a society. Any quantity of money will do, so long as the quality of the money is sound. Prices adjust based on the existing money supply. If production rises and the money supply remains stable, the purchasing power of the money will rise. If production falls, the purchasing power of money will fall.
    What you are describing is inflation and deflation, prices falling and rising. Both conditions tend to be negative, deflation more so than inflation, which is why money supplies are not static.
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    Originally Posted by ICrapBig View Post
    Lol, third world condition?

    Bro...



    They have to import water.

    Their standard of living is so far above the average Americans its not funny.

    Its no where near what Norway, Canada or Australia are.
    funny you mention Singapore, theres a thread going on right now in the misc about how boring Singapore is

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=149833223
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    Originally Posted by GrokTheCube View Post
    What you are describing is inflation and deflation, prices falling and rising. Both conditions tend to be negative, deflation more so than inflation, which is why money supplies are not static.
    What I'm describing is a money supply that is priced in by market forces and not by artificial interest rates. Inflation and deflation are a normal part of the business cycle, but not when manipulated by a government or central bank entity.
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    Originally Posted by ICrapBig View Post
    Where are these "best" countries?

    Canada, Australia and the Scandinavians?

    Lets have a look at what they have in common:

    1) massive resources for export
    2) Small populations relative to land size
    3) Homogeneous populations
    4) Isolated from major conflict

    Lets have a look at the best countries that have

    1) no resources
    2) massive populations and no land
    3) multicultural population
    4) have no way to protect themselves

    Singapore and Hong Kong

    No surprise that Singapore and Hong Kong are low taxing, small government capitalist havens. Now imagine they had access to what Canada, Aus and co did.
    Singapore is also a dictatorship and they have been increasingly reliant on cheap/illegal labour from the Philippines/Indonesia to keep up, who aren't considered citizens either.
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    Originally Posted by VTheKing View Post
    Singapore is also a dictatorship and they have been increasingly reliant on cheap/illegal labour from the Philippines/Indonesia to keep up, who aren't considered citizens either.
    Opposite. They are the fastest growing country for skilled labor in the world. A lot of people in the investment bank I work in are moving to singapore for more money and a higher quality of life.

    Anyway, the OP has never heard of a trade surplus. There is a right amount of debt and inflation a country SHOULD have, and if you don't understand this it's time to go back to economics 101.
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    Originally Posted by MangoPort View Post
    Opposite. They are the fastest growing country for skilled labor in the world. A lot of people in the investment bank I work in are moving to singapore for more money and a higher quality of life.

    Anyway, the OP has never heard of a trade surplus. There is a right amount of debt and inflation a country SHOULD have, and if you don't understand this it's time to go back to economics 101.
    higher quality of life in singapore..this thread says otherwise

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=149833223


    and i know what a trade surplus is. debt and expansion of a money supply are just an invisible tax on the middle class...the only beneficiaries are bankers and special interest groups and the govt that grows
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    Originally Posted by ICrapBig View Post
    Lol, third world condition?

    Bro...



    They have to import water.

    Their standard of living is so far above the average Americans its not funny.

    Its no where near what Norway, Canada or Australia are.
    I don't see you voting with your feet?
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    Originally Posted by MangoPort View Post
    Opposite. They are the fastest growing country for skilled labor in the world. A lot of people in the investment bank I work in are moving to singapore for more money and a higher quality of life.
    None of what you said is the "opposite" of what I mentioned. Why do you think might be a reason why they require so much skilled labour? Because they can hire a very inexpensive bottom line... just about every white collar Singaporean has either a Filipino or an Indonesian maid, their shipbuilding industry also relies heavily on that kind of labour. Not that doing any of that is inherently bad, but people talk like the well being of the lower/immigrant classes isn't relevant at all.
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    Originally Posted by jacklambert58 View Post
    I don't see you voting with your feet?
    So why not move to Canada then? Vote with yours you phucking pratt!
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    Originally Posted by ICrapBig View Post
    So why not move to Canada then? Vote with yours you phucking pratt!
    What's a "pratt?"...if just typo, no prob..

    I visit Canada often & its indeed a beautiful place, but its just too socialist for me.
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    Originally Posted by GrokTheCube View Post
    What you are describing is inflation and deflation, prices falling and rising. Both conditions tend to be negative, deflation more so than inflation, which is why money supplies are not static.
    There has never been a single case in history where a population has clamored for the government to take over money because of terrible inflation or deflation. The only times this has occurred is when a government is rapidly expanding and needed the extra money for (unsustainable) expenditures, usually war. In fact it is quite the opposite, under fiat monetary systems the 20th century alone saw close to 30 hyperinflations. The record makes it clear that commodity backed money, not fiat money, is the most stable long term.
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    Well we have a situation in Europe which is the result of countries not being able to devalue their currency. We can also look back to the great depression to see the harmful effects resulting from the restrictive monetary policy of the gold standard.

    And procyclical fiscal policy is stupid. Why would you want to cut spending in a slump?
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    Originally Posted by UncommonGrounds View Post
    Well we have a situation in Europe which is the result of countries not being able to devalue their currency. We can also look back to the great depression to see the harmful effects resulting from the restrictive monetary policy of the gold standard.

    And procyclical fiscal policy is stupid. Why would you want to cut spending in a slump?
    So the long term path to prosperity is just constant devaluation of currency forever and ever?

    Lol @ gold standard being a root cause of the great depression. Correlation =/= causation, because I can definitely point out that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 to keep the economy stable, and yet abysmally failed instead creating the worst economic slump seen by mankind in modern times.
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    Originally Posted by Spartacus777 View Post
    So the long term path to prosperity is just constant devaluation of currency forever and ever?

    Lol @ gold standard being a root cause of the great depression. Correlation =/= causation, because I can definitely point out that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 to keep the economy stable, and yet abysmally failed instead creating the worst economic slump seen by mankind in modern times.
    It's troubling that you have to constantly misrepresent liberalism in order to argue against its merits. But I guess it's easier than an honest evaluation of ideologies which leaves you defending the indefensible.

    Moderate inflation is a result of a sound and prosperous economy. Being unable to devalue leaves you in a situation like the PIIGS countries.

    When I say look at the Great Depression, I'm not saying that it caused the crash. What I mean is that it prolonged and deepened the depression because the gold standard required massive deflation, amplifying the real value of debt.

    If everybody is trying to hoard more gold, you're going to have to pay more potatoes to get an ounce of gold. Since the U.S. insisted on holding the dollar price of gold fixed, this meant that the dollar price of potatoes had to fall. The longer a country stayed on the gold standard, the more overall deflation it experienced. Many of us are persuaded that this deflation greatly added to the economic difficulties of those countries that insisted on sticking with a fixed value of their currency in terms of gold.



    Ben Bernanke and Harold James, in a paper called "The Gold Standard, Deflation, and Financial Crisis in the Great Depression: An International Comparison" published in 1991 (NBER working paper version here), noted that 13 other countries besides the U.K. had decided to abandon their currencies' gold parity in 1931. Bernanke and James' data for the average growth rate of industrial production for these countries (plotted in the top panel above) was positive in every year from 1932 on. Countries that stayed on gold, by contrast, experienced an average output decline of 15% in 1932. The U.S. abandoned gold in 1933, after which its dramatic recovery immediately began. The same happened after Italy dropped the gold standard in 1934, and for Belgium when it went off in 1935. On the other hand, the three countries that stuck with gold through 1936 (France, Netherlands, and Poland) saw a 6% drop in industrial production in 1935, while the rest of the world was experiencing solid growth.
    http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/...ld_standa.html

    And the Federal Reserve did not create the Great Depression. They did make it worse by being too tight with monetary policy. Meaning they should've printed and devalued more. Even Libertarian deity Milton Friedman acknowledges this.
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