Couldn't disagree more. The only flaw in proportion that you can point in shawns physique is his delts. They were a bit underdevelopded considering the rest of his body, but it was a minor issue.
On the other hand you can point to ronnies calves and tris.
The difference is not great but ronnie surely isn't more proportionate than shawn.
exactly
anyone whos ever been a contender is proportionate, the comparisons dont rely on that
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What 'same' argument? There is no 'same' argument involving Ronnie.
You can't use the "He's smaller but more proportionate and complete than the bigger guy" because it's not true. Ronnie was bigger AND more complete/proportionate than Shawn.
And you couldn't compare Flex or DH to Phil and Kai for the very same reasons.
Flex and DH are both great bodybuilders, but both have some pretty big flaws in their physiques. Phil and Kai have virtually none. They are bigger AND more complete.
Shawn is probaly the most symmetrical and proportioned bodybuilder ever, and between him and Ronnie there are other guys exceptional in these areas (Cormier is one of them)
Henry doesn't have big flaws related to his size (like Padilla who was a complete small guy) he's like a mini Ronnie and at least as complete as Phil or Kai if we are considering p4p. Phil lacks width with arms and delts overpowering his chest, Kai lacks traps and has a squished shape of the lats in the RLS due to his short torso, Henry has none of these
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It's hard for me to disagree with him. I prefer his physique to any other I've ever seen in BBing. And I've never seen the appeal in Dorian's physique.
Branch or Ben P are guys with monster legs but they aren't the best in the world because they lack in the upper body. Henry doesn't have the biggest legs in the 212 but it doesn't mean that they're lacking or are twigs compared to the others.
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Originally Posted by Unbiasedfan
On the other hand you can point to ronnies calves and tris.
I'd hardly call Ronnie's triceps a flaw, sure they didn't look the greatest in the side tri but they were still monstrously huge and looked great in every other pose
I'd hardly call Ronnie's triceps a flaw, sure they didn't look the greatest in the side tri but they were still monstrously huge and looked great in every other pose
Couldn't disagree more. The only flaw in proportion that you can point in shawns physique is his delts. They were a bit underdevelopded considering the rest of his body, but it was a minor issue.
On the other hand you can point to ronnies calves and tris.
The difference is not great but ronnie surely isn't more proportionate than shawn.
His tris? Show me where his tris are lacking.
Bench: 215x12 (17/12/2011) PR since torn RC
"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Don’t think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean you’ll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad
"Proper preparation prevents poor performance," - Kai Greene
Purdey, what's your opinion on Dorian's 6 titles? Just interested to know how you see things of the 90s after our discussion a while back.
Asking purely for my own curiosity, I am not trying to instigate a ten pager
I think yates deserved all of them, I know a lot of people dont but IMO yates had a near perfect structure and his development was crazy all over. A lot of people knock his proportions but i think that he had ideal proportions, everything matched. 97 is debatable but yates biceps only effected some poses and he still out conditioned everyone else and had a better structure (long legs, short torso ext.). maybe if nasser matched yates conditioning he could have taken the win. Im mid tattoo so this is a "in a nutshell" reply but i am happy to discuss further later on bro. have a good one
What 'same' argument? There is no 'same' argument involving Ronnie.
You can't use the "He's smaller but more proportionate and complete than the bigger guy" because it's not true. Ronnie was bigger AND more complete/proportionate than Shawn.
And you couldn't compare Flex or DH to Phil and Kai for the very same reasons.
Flex and DH are both great bodybuilders, but both have some pretty big flaws in their physiques. Phil and Kai have virtually none. They are bigger AND more complete.
I agree. Shawn wasnt wide enough for the length of his torso and his calves were too short (like yates biceps in 97). shawn did have a very nice looking physique though
Henry doesn't have big flaws related to his size (like Padilla who was a complete small guy) he's like a mini Ronnie and at least as complete as Phil or Kai if we are considering p4p. Phil lacks width with arms and delts overpowering his chest, Kai lacks traps and has a squished shape of the lats in the RLS due to his short torso, Henry has none of these
Henry doesn't have big flaws? What about his quads? His biceps, which are non-existant from the back?
Seriously, just take a look at his arms. Insane triceps sweep, no biceps. That's not a big proportions problem?
Originally Posted by spamy
Henry doesn't have the biggest legs in the 212 but it doesn't mean that they're lacking or are twigs compared to the others.
They're strongly lacking compared to his upper body, which is the topic at hand.
Originally Posted by Unbiasedfan
Although they are great, they are underdevelopded from that prespective considering the rest of his physique.
Minor disproportion, and only from that one angle. Not to the same extent of Ray's lack of delts.
Bench: 215x12 (17/12/2011) PR since torn RC
"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Don’t think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean you’ll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad
"Proper preparation prevents poor performance," - Kai Greene
Minor disproportion, and only from that one angle. Not to the same extent of Ray's lack of delts.
Even if i agreed, there was always calves/quad development disparity. Point is, ronnie isn't more proportionate than ray. Nothing wrong with that, pretty much nobody is/was.
Bodybuildingwise, i would say ray is slightly more proportionate and symmetric (dependes on what year we are talking about since coleman had some back issues in some years) than coleman. On the other hand, ronnies top condition and especially overall muscle development make it a no contest.
Size and condition were also Dorians main weapons against someone like Ray, so i can see why spamy brought that up. The difference imo is that ronnie is on a whole different level than dorian. He basically combines ray's and dorian's qualities.
Branch or Ben P are guys with monster legs but they aren't the best in the world because they lack in the upper body. Henry doesn't have the biggest legs in the 212 but it doesn't mean that they're lacking or are twigs compared to the others.
ben p doesn't win shows and branch is branch
i agree with you that david henry's physique has amazing proportions, but he isn't a superdeveloped physique like kai and phil. They only have those few flaws you mentioned but would give nothing else up in the comparisons. Henry's legs would get beaten in several poses if not all of them p4p
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Even if i agreed, there was always calves/quad development disparity. Point is, ronnie isn't more proportionate than ray. Nothing wrong with that, pretty much nobody is/was.
Bodybuildingwise, i would say ray is slightly more proportionate and symmetric (dependes on what year we are talking about since coleman had some back issues in some years) than coleman. On the other hand, ronnies top condition and especially overall muscle development make it a no contest.
Size and condition were also Dorians main weapons against someone like Ray, so i can see why spamy brought that up. The difference imo is that ronnie is on a whole different level than dorian. He basically combines ray's and dorian's qualities.
It was similar in Shawn's case. His quads were pretty massive, but his calves were sub average.
Bench: 215x12 (17/12/2011) PR since torn RC
"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Don’t think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean you’ll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad
"Proper preparation prevents poor performance," - Kai Greene
calves never cost anyone an olympia title nor earned one for someone
"Like those in the valley behind us, most people stand in sight of the spiritual mountains all their lives and never enter them, being content to listen to others who have been there and thus avoid the hardships."
calves never cost anyone an olympia title nor earned one for someone
If you didn't realize it yet, we are nitpicking.
Originally Posted by DavisForman
It was similar in Shawn's case. His quads were pretty massive, but his calves were sub average.
The disparity is nowhere near close enough. Ronnie had probably the goat quads with less than average calves (detailwise they can appear very weak in some shots). Shawn had good quads and good calves development/sweep and detail. The only thing you can point out is his calves insertion point being too high.
once again almost irrelevant, dorian's "6 year domination" doesn't include the goat bber that is ronnie
in an actual comparison ronnie would beat him in every pose except the ab/thigh and maybe the side tri. this is supported by dorian yates that explains contests are judged by mandatory poses NOT contest track records
Ronnie Coleman
1997 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 9th
1996 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 6th
1995 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 11th
1994 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 15th
Dorian Yates
1997 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1996 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1995 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1994 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
Originally Posted by SammyJr
that you ND?
ND? Always train with a FullROM
Originally Posted by chenko
FFS....Did you even watch the video?
He said right now in 1996
Ronnie didn't even exist, figuratively speaking, in 1996
And lol at because the judges giving a title thinking that means someone won fair and square.....jesus christ olympia has several examples where only a moron could argue the winner deserved the win.....1981, 2007 a couple of them
HEAD TO HEAD DORIAN 4 RONNIE 0
Dorian beat Ronnie 4 times. Throughout 1994-1997. If it was not for his injuries then this period could have been longer.
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Dorian beat Ronnie 4 times. Throughout 1994-1997. If it was not for his injuries then this period could have been longer.
is that supposed to be the same ronnie who was mr olympia? interesting... how you're avoiding a direct comparison. ronnie had more wins in every category and a much better physique get over it
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calves never cost anyone an olympia title nor earned one for someone
The ignorance...
Bench: 215x12 (17/12/2011) PR since torn RC
"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Don’t think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean you’ll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad
"Proper preparation prevents poor performance," - Kai Greene
1997 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 9th
1996 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 6th
1995 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 11th
1994 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 15th
Dorian Yates
1997 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1996 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1995 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1994 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
ND? Always train with a FullROM
HEAD TO HEAD DORIAN 4 RONNIE 0
Dorian beat Ronnie 4 times. Throughout 1994-1997. If it was not for his injuries then this period could have been longer.
Actually, if not for Flex telling Ronnie in 1997 what kind of bicycle he was going to need to keep up with the big boys, it could have happened sooner or later. Ronnie in 1994-early 1997 wasn't the same Ronnie as anything past the 1998 NOC. He went from losing to the top tier guys to making quick work of them.
Dorian battled Flex and Levrone and had some hard titles to win. Flex and Levrone are both considered uncrowned Mr. O's and among the best of all time. They both simply lacked a little bit in one area or another vs Dorian. Ronnie, by 1998 was a whole different animal. Details like Flex, width like Kevin and more muscle basically everywhere than both. That's something Dorian NEVER had on them. By 2000+ it was a joke, Dorian would have been destroyed.
Actually, if not for Flex telling Ronnie in 1997 what kind of bicycle he was going to need to keep up with the big boys, it could have happened sooner or later. Ronnie in 1994-early 1997 wasn't the same Ronnie as anything past the 1998 NOC. He went from losing to the top tier guys to making quick work of them.
Dorian battled Flex and Levrone and had some hard titles to win. Flex and Levrone are both considered uncrowned Mr. O's and among the best of all time. They both simply lacked a little bit in one area or another vs Dorian. Ronnie, by 1998 was a whole different animal. Details like Flex, width like Kevin and more muscle basically everywhere than both. That's something Dorian NEVER had on them. By 2000+ it was a joke, Dorian would have been destroyed.
People seem to forget about how short Dorian's career was. He competed as a pro for a grand total of 8 years, which is nothing compared to many other top pros throughout the history of the IFBB. Had he stuck around a little longer, I think his legacy wouldn't have been as grand as it is now. He would have been beaten by Ronnie just as badly as Ronnie beat everyone else.
Bench: 215x12 (17/12/2011) PR since torn RC
"Being the best in your circle is not enough; you have to think bigger to become a champion. Don’t think like a small fish in a big pond or else when you get to the ocean you’ll be eaten alive." - Fouad Abiad
"Proper preparation prevents poor performance," - Kai Greene
Actually, if not for Flex telling Ronnie in 1997 what kind of bicycle he was going to need to keep up with the big boys, it could have happened sooner or later. Ronnie in 1994-early 1997 wasn't the same Ronnie as anything past the 1998 NOC. He went from losing to the top tier guys to making quick work of them.
Dorian battled Flex and Levrone and had some hard titles to win. Flex and Levrone are both considered uncrowned Mr. O's and among the best of all time. They both simply lacked a little bit in one area or another vs Dorian. Ronnie, by 1998 was a whole different animal. Details like Flex, width like Kevin and more muscle basically everywhere than both. That's something Dorian NEVER had on them. By 2000+ it was a joke, Dorian would have been destroyed.
Pre 98 Ronnie was one of the most ripped off bodybuilder's in IFBB history.
I really don't know why either, his physique during all those years was phenomenal. Sure the size wasn't there, but with a more intense focus on proportions, he should've done a lot better than he did in those years.
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1997 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 9th
1996 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 6th
1995 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 11th
1994 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 15th
Dorian Yates
1997 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1996 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1995 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
1994 IFBB Mr. Olympia -- 1st
.
I'm going to reply to this post. Then I'm going to go log off for the last time go outside and walk into a river and keep walking till I reach the bottom. Then I am going to sit down and remain there till I drown. Because I am forced to qoute a post by FullROM in agreeance. Ronnie did not come into Mr.Olympia mode till after Dorian's reign. There are many great athletes whom perhaps due to conditioning issues or body development issues early on placed considerably poorly before they started recieving the respected and revered placements they are being put in later on in their careers. You may be able to look at them and see potential in their physiques but people have a tendency to ignore things such as unrefined conditioning because they like a guy's muscle bellies and/or shape. Trying to say a guy who may as well be listed as "did not place" is better than the reigning champion of the world is an example of this. You would be hard pressed to find anyone though that wouldn't tell you that even his First Olympia win(Ronnie) far surpassed Dorian in terms of physique even throughout his 6 year reign. Of course Ronnie's maximum mass potential far surpassed anything the world has ever seen. But it took him time to reach that level, he had to take some 15th places along the way.
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Pre 98 Ronnie was one of the most ripped off bodybuilder's in IFBB history.
I really don't know why either, his physique during all those years was phenomenal. Sure the size wasn't there, but with a more intense focus on proportions, he should've done a lot better than he did in those years.
Conditioning was a lot of it. He didn't have the size yet compared to say nasser or Kevin or flex or Dorian or even dillet. Shawn could out condition him as did a lot of guys most shows. He had shape and seperation, but was watery a lot and was missing a bit of size vs.a lot of the premier taller guys
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